Wally Keeler > wrote:
>
>In any event, your contentions that Hungarian Jews would be ashamed or not
>proud to declare their Hungarianness is extremely stupid. There might well
>be some Hungarian Jews who are like that -- I have not met any

Oh, so you haven't run into Rabbi Landeszmann yet in Canada? I suspect
Ms. Egorov has.

Joe

In article >,  (Andras
Kornai) wrote:

> > Sure it was [in the sixties] but it was then when much of today's elite
> > entrenched itself through those unfair advantages. 
> There is a certain amount of truth to this, though less than your phrasing
> would suggest. Those who were denied university-level education in the early
> sixties were treated unfairly at the time and did not, for the most part,
> become members of the elite (there are notable exceptions of course, because
> uniquely talented people did often succeed even on a less than level playing
> field).  But those who were unfairly admitted did not, just by dint of a
> university degree, become part of the elite, and those who finished universit
y
> have not "entrenched" themselves at the time. There was quite a bit of work i
n
> getting where they are today, and the playing field became less and less
> tilted as time went by. 

So does the lessening of that tilting over time morally excuse those who 
benefitted from that tilting? 

> > Why don't you tell the outsiders then how the members of [the Constitutiona
l
> > Court] were selected in '89; how many were selected by the outgoing
> > communist government and how many by the opposition.  This court was meant
> > to save the hide of the former communist rulers and act as a trottle to the
> > pace of changes. 
> Joe, I know you deny the legitimacy of the CC, indeed the legitimacy of the 
> whole setup that was created when the communists handed the reins over. Yet 
> it was a negotiated settlement, perhaps the best deal that each side could 
> have gotten at the time. 

Please look at the subject line of this thread. This isn't how bad were 
the politics of communism but how bad were the morals of communism. A 
dirty stinking deal may have been the best that the forces of good could 
have won against the forces of evil on that particular battlefield on 
that particular day but that doesn't change the moral situation one bit 
or make them any more or less morally legitimate. To appeal to the fact 
that it was the best that could be negotiated as a moral position is a
troubling window on your world view.

> > I think following the Czech example would also be a good start.  
> You seem to forget that repression in Czechoslovakia up to 1989 was about as
> bad as in Hungary up to 1965, but Hungary has gotten considerably better in
> the 20+ years that followed. The Czech model was appropriate for
> Czechoslovakia 1990 as it would have been appropriate for Hungary 1966 (which
> is the time frame you seem to have frozen into) but it wasn't appropriate for
> Hungary 1990. 

This is an interesting idea that there is a statute of limitations on moral 
outrages. I'm sure when you face God on judgment day you could try expounding 
to him this idea. Who knows, it might be good for a laugh or two.

Please tell me more on how you should structure such a statute of limitations 
and why you don't think that this will make communists guilty of such crimes 
fight all the harder to delay a turnover of power by hook or crook, just to 
try to get that judgement delayed until it is finally denied.

> > And what has irredentism to do with this, unless as a cheap trick to line u
p
> > DB on your side? 
> Brutus already decided I was the enemy even before I dared to stop that
> gallopping hobby horse of yours, and I doubt he will agree with me on
> anything. 

Here you are wrong and show yourself to be a shallow thinker. It's pretty 
obvious that Joe and I have crossed swords on the issue of irredentism and 
Transylvania on many an occasion. Yet here I am giving support to him 
because on this issue I think that he is in certain major aspects, correct.
If you ever come over to see the light, you can be assured that I will give 
you equal consideration. 

> The point was (and remains) that retribution for communist-era
> wrongs is one of the many issues on which the far right is completely out of
> touch with the Hungarian electorate, retribution for WWI and WWII wrongs is
> another. The plain and simple fact remains that Hungarians don't want
> Transylvania back, and I think this actually displeases Brutus who would much
> rather attribute Romania's less than sterling success in modernization to a
> convenient enemy, irredentist Hungary. The fact that this Hungary exists only
> in his imagination and yours makes the two of you such beautiful friends I'd
> hate to break it up. 

Oh I have a great deal of criticism for the present day government of 
Romania. The main problem, as I have repeated often in SCR, that I have with 
the UDMR is that I view it as a warping of the political climate away from 
ideological lines and towards ethnic lines, something that I don't want to 
see. I would much rather see Romanian and esp. Transylvanian pollitics become 
de-ethnicized and aligned on classic left-right ideological poles. It would 
be much healthier that way for all concerned.

Romania certainly needs its own accounting in an honest manner so that the 
people know what happened in reality, not just what the government finds it 
convenient to let out. If that accounting leads to justice I will be quite 
happy with the outcome. 

BTW, why do you insist on terming such accounting as retribution and 
vengeance? Why don't you even grant the possibility that they are searches 
for justice?

DB

-- 
The Romanian Political Pages               http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus
Now available: The Romanian constitution in Romanian, an URL minder
Coming soon: An expanded Ilascu section, and victims of communism memorial!
These posts are not official PNT-cd policy unless specifically marked as such.

Hello!
Last time I've send this message you've said I couldn't "spam". And USA 
gouvernment can???
Ok! So... here it goes again.

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> Persons wishing to report information about the bombing of the Khobar
> Towers facility, Dhahran, Saudi Arabia; other terrorist attacks; or the
> planning of future terrorist attacks; should contact the authorities or
> the nearest U.S. embassy or consulate. In the U.S., contact the Federal
> Bureau of Investigation or call the Bureau of Diplomatic Security at
> 1-800-HEROES-1.

I want to report some kind of terrorist attack: A WORLD PROBLEM:

Many of us are wasting our time just looking to our navels. But we are 
not all like that. Because I know that there are in these newsgroups 
peoplens who look to other sides too (or they were not looking fo 5 
million USD) I'm referring to a problem that is a world problem already.

Portugal is a proud country. But being proud sometimes poses limits. 
Economic limits, for example.
Since Portugal is around the 25 to 30 world economic position there exist 
problems that are not only portuguese problems. They are World problems 
such as those related to human right violations. East Timor of course is 
one whish comes to light here.

In 1974, after a revolution that liberated Portugal from a dictorship, 
Angola, Cabo Verde, Gune' Bissau, Mocambique and Sao Tome' e Principe 
became independente. East Timor was to become a nation with a self 
determination also. But Indonesia (better: it's government and armed 
forces) had invaded East Timor. At the time, Portugal was in the middle 
of a revolution. Today it is working to became a full member of EEC. It's 
economic and military capacibility to defend a country in the other side 
of the world is almost non-existant. Meantime the violation of human 
rigths has become so significant that is now a World Problem.

As an Australian journalist reported:

1- One third of it's population as been killed (we knew that all ready 
   but nobody seems to care)

2- Indonesians from Java have began an invasion of the best lands. The 
   people of East Timor have been pushed to poorer lands with endemic 
   diseases

3- To the women of fertile age, sterility is provoked with injections. 
   Abortive pills are given to pregnant women. All of this happens when 
   women look for care in health centers (without their knowledge).

4- In a few years, a referendum on whether the East Timorese want to be a 
   part of Indonesia will have results that we can already predict.

I'm writing this post as citizen of the world. Portugal has boycotted 
Indonesian products. But Portugal has 10 000 000 residents. Europe as 
more than 300 000 000. The World more than 5 500 000 000. The weight of 
Portugal is not enough. The world needs to think of a resolution to this 
problem.

USA can't give prizes to Soharto because of his good ruling in a "country 
with so many cultures" choosing to forget what is happening in East 
Timor!!! This man is not Tito!!! And even if he was look at Yugoslavia. 

East Timor's problem is like the one of Kuwait. But East Timor seems to 
have less petroleum.

Related pages

> --------------------------------------------------------------------

gopher://gopher.igc.apc.org:70/00/pubs/nation.gopher/9

http://www.web.apc.org/~hands/

http://www.peg.apc.org/~etchrmel

http://www.uc.pt/Timor/TimorNet.html

http://www.ozemail.com.au/~ekeberg/IMAGES.HTM

In article >,  (Andras
Kornai) wrote:

> > So people who were 18 in 1965 when you say that there was widespread 
> > persecution would be in their mid 50's today. Most of them would still be  
> > alive and all of them would be morally deserving of compensation wouldn't 
> > you say? Even by your own statements there is some moral debt owed to a 
> > wide part of the population. 

> Sure there is.

So what is the nature of that debt in your own eyes? What do the ordinary 
people owe those who were shut out based on their past achievements or 
those of their families? 

> > From the way you structure your statements, it is obvious that you
> > would like to minimize the people who you have to admit are morally
> > owed compensation. 

> You might find it obvious, but I actually never said such a thing. Some peopl
e
> suffered gravely (were killed or imprisoned) some suffered considerably (they
> were fired from their jobs and/or forcibly relocated), some suffered less but
> still noticeably (denied education, visas, promotions) and some suffered very
> little (such as having to put up with the same bad food/bad housing etc. as 
> almost everybody else), some got little advantages, medium advantages, big 
> advantages. Altogether, I would reserve the term "persecution" to the first 
> two categories on the list, and I would not say that there was "widespread 
> persecution" in Hungary after 1965, as there were very few people killed,
> imprisoned, fired, or forcibly relocated. 

You don't find the denial of visas or promotions to be persecution? I 
disagree, but each of us has our own image of what is persecution. 
I guess you don't think that violations of the Helsinki human rights 
protections which include political denial of promotion or denial of the 
freedom of travel constitute persecution.

> > Was it a just opinion? Reread the subject line. It isn't a question of 
> > legality but morality. Whether the court system is moral in most countries 
> > is a hotly debatable topic. Even in the US the idea of the court as an 
> > automatic standardbearer for morality would get you derision and disbelief.

> Who said automatic? The court rendered a decision which was argued in rather
> clear non-legalese language. I don't have the text, but it was published by
> several weeklies and dailies at the time and should not be too hard to dig 
> out.

This is still a non-answer. The Supreme Court of the United States agreed 
that blacks were property. Take a look at Dredd Scott sometime. It was the 
highest court in the land. Did that make its decision moral? I don't think 
so. 

I'm not saying that this court decision is the moral equivalent of Dredd 
Scott. What I am saying is that the fact that the court made a determination 
does not excuse each individual from exercising his moral judgment about 
the matter. You can't just appeal to authority and think that this ends 
the matter. Appeal to authority as a way of justifying acts went out in 
the Nurenburg trials.

> > That's an interesting way of looking at the Israeli justice system. 
> > Convictions are motivated by vengeance, not justice. Acquitals are a 
> > sign that the thirst for vengeance has been slaked. What a bizarre view 
> > of life and justice.

> You really can't leave well enough alone, can you? The guy was a disgusting 
> mass murderer, with several witnesses recognizing him and plenty of 
> corroborating evidence. The prosecution couldn't make the case stick,
and they 
> let him go, because it _is_ better to let a hundred criminals go free than to
 
> have an innocent man suffer. 

The Israeli justice system made the right decision and showed itself to be 
mature and responsible. It wasn't a thirst for vengeance that motivates 
either the Nazi hunters or those who would call communists to justice. It 
is just that, a desire for justice. Just because I want to recognize 
that and you don't does not make me a defender of Nazis. You're the one 
slamming them with the vengeance shtick, not me. I see what they did in 
this and other cases as the right thing, motivated by the proper emotions.
You call the convictions vengeance, not justice, and when they acquit you 
say that this is evidence that they are returning to sanity.

> > OK, let's get back here a bit to the principles. There were supported and 
> > banned categories of people, you both seem to agree on this. What do each 
> > of you think should be the moral debt that the supported owe to the banned.
 
> > How about the supported to that third (and most likely largest) category 
> > the tolerated. And last of all what do the tolerated owe the banned in a 
> > moral context?

> I think the supported owe something, in direct proportion of their support,
> and the banned are owed something, in direct proportion of their banishment.

And those who were "just following orders" what of them? Is it only the 
guy who wields the club or also the guy who gains career advancement because 
of the newly opened job who owe something?

> I also think that this holds true independent of the moral character of the
> institution that offered the support or the banning. To give a personal
> example, early in my carreer I enjoyed the support of a professional society
> that had the enlightened policy of giving travel grants to students from
> countries where hard currency was unavailable. As soon as I started to earn
> hard currency I started to contribute to the same fund, and helped setting up
> a similar fund at another professional society. In dollar sums I paid already
 
> more than I ever got, but of course even the small sums involved at the time
> really gave me a leg up, and in a moral sense I still fel indebted. 

OK so far...

> Since the communist system didn't give me similar goodies (not that I didn't 
> apply!) I don't particularly feel indebted to them, and see no reason for my 
> monies to go into the pool for restitution of the genuine victims (whose 
> existence I am by no means denying or minimizing by saying that the 
> situation was rather different in Romania and in Hungary). 

So you would have preferred to be morally culpable of the crimes of the 
communist regime (you applied for all the goodies you could get) but 
because you weren't good enough at playing the system you didn't receive 
anything. The moral choice you made (by your own rule) would have made you 
guilty but the choices made by others prevented you from getting your 
spoils and certifying your culpability. 

I'm sorry, we're guilty by our own choices, not the choices of others. There 
is an old prison trick that is sometimes used where one prisoner is selected 
at random and given good treatment and thanked for his "cooperation" even 
though he gave no cooperation. The favored prisoner is treated as a pariah 
and punished even shunned by his fellow prisoners. After a time of bad 
treatment at the hands of his fellow prisoners the poor unfortunate is asked 
to collaborate. Why shouldn't he do it? He's already being punished for it. 

If this prisoner were to not collaborate, by your system, he would be morally 
culpable anyway. After all he did receive support from the jailers, and if 
there was a fixed budget for prison food and amenities, the extras came out 
of everybody elses hide. I don't find this a particularly complete solution. 

I would agree that those who received support should pay back but also those 
who would have liked to be among the favored few but just didn't make it 
because there weren't enough goodies around should also be considered 
culpable. 

> > Regime changeovers have had this feature for literally hundreds of years 
> > in democracies. Look at the United States. Marbury v. Madison the seminal 
> > case that defined the judiciary's power to review the constitutionality 
> > of laws came as a result of just such a "packing" scheme.
> Indeed. And the court's decision was to curtail its own powers as to the 
> issuance of writs of mandamus. 

You don't get it. Regime changeover is the point here, not the distraction 
of the court's swapping the small right of a writ of mandamus for the large 
right of constitutional review.

> > So what is the correct moral stance for a new regime that enters after 
> > a communist regime? Should the previous regime's appointments be respected 
> > even though you know that many of them will sabotage you at every 
> > opportunity? Is the fact of the nature of the regime that appointed a 
> > government official a sufficient cause for immediate firing, review of the 
> > individual, or no legitimate cause of action?

> A particularly interesting case is that of the German judiciary after WWII:
> needless to say, almost all were implicated in the evils of nazism. Yet they
> were kept in place until the sixties, and only Chancellor Erhardt issued a
> circular in which he _asked_ not ordered those who _themselves_ felt
> implicated to step down. Many did. 

Of course this is after 20+ years of indoctrination on the evils of this 
ideology and an occupying army dedicated to denazification. This is hardly 
an analogous situation. There are no occupying armies, the Communists, 
unlike the Nazis, are not banned from politics. I mean really, the analogous 
situation would have been for Rudolph Hess or Herman Goering to have run 
for Chancellor in the '50s.

In post armistice Germany if a judge were to try to shield Nazis or to 
sabotage the replacement government he wouldn't have a chance. Clearly in 
the post communist countries there is no outside force to stop them.

> Here the case is further complicated by the
> fact that unlike nazism, which got starker and starker until it was crushed b
y
> an outside force, communism actually got milder and milder, at least in
> Hungary. 

Actually Communism also tended to get starker and starker until it felt it 
had eliminated its self-described enemies and only then started to get 
milder. Compare 1920 Russia with 1937 Russia and you will be hard pressed 
to argue that it got milder and milder. The Nazis never got to that point,
thankfully, having been crushed in WW II. I would suspect that had there been 
a negotiated settlement leaving the Nazis in power, Nazi Germany would 
have followed a similar progression to the USSR in terms of levels of 
repression. 

When the Nazi regime ended in collapse a few decades later (it had its own 
internal weaknesses) would you have spoken out against the Nurenburg trials?

As for the Hungarian situation, I would say that 1956 represented the 
triumph of communism over its enemies with the post '56 leadership feeling 
free to relax the repression. The Hungarian situation is complicated by 
its colonial status. Who made the decisions there regarding repression is 
an open question.

> > Have no fear, I know that we aren't discussing irredentism here. 
> Great. Please feel free to ignore the part of my posting to Joe discussing it
.

Too late, already sent a response.

DB

-- 
The Romanian Political Pages               http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus
Now available: The Romanian constitution in Romanian, an URL minder
Coming soon: An expanded Ilascu section, and victims of communism memorial!
These posts are not official PNT-cd policy unless specifically marked as such.

Maria Egorov wrote:
> 
> You Hungarians are funny people.If the Austrians through Kurt Waldheim
> play the violin in "DO it MAJOR"),you DANCE AFTER IT.
> I WANDER HOW YOU ARE GOING TO DANCE WITHOUT GERMANIC HELP.
> AS THE HISTORY PROVED IT, THIS GERMANS ARE NOT GOING TO MAINTAIN THEIR
> POWER INDEFINITELY.
> WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO IN THIS CASE?
> 
> Are you going to change your religion again or just the IDENTITY.
> Remember the Austrians are not the beneficiary of a superior culture
> anymore.(By this I mean
> the civilization which was transferred innocently by Italian city(cita)
> states to the barbaric Germans
> and implicitly to others like the subjugated Hungarians).
> IF YOU THE HUNS DO NOT UNDERSTAND YOUR ROLE IN EUROPE THEN I SHOULD
> REMIND YOU WHAT THE ENGLISH SAID(of course during second world war):
> 
> "YOU LIVE ON THE OLD CONTINENT FOR A MILLENNIUM OR SO,BUT YOU DID NOT
> LEARN ANYTHING".
> 
> IN OTHER WORDS IS NOT ENOUGH TO READ KANT,LA BRUERE,LA FONTENE,etc.
> It is a MUST to read yourself in order to become EUROPEAN as you always
> liked to be known.Maria,
You're a pugilist (and if you were a male you might be better off in the 
ring than on the Net). And there seem to be more pure muscle tissues in 
your brain than cells and neurons with amino-acids. You quote and 
misquote left and right, compare oranges and apples, scratch the surface 
of history like a chicken the dung heap. You are to frantic to denounce, 
to score a point, you work yourself into a frenzy, and the result od all 
that flaying out and about is a lot of nonsense. You're the typical 
person who has little knowledge and is a nuissance, since he is convinced 
that he knows all and it all clicks together.
No to some specific points: before you bandy around the names of public 
figures try to ascertain how they are spelled. Make sure that what you 
place between quotes were said exactly that way. Also, to what 
circumstances those pronouncements were directed too.
Furthermore, Hungarian culture is not exclusively German, or even 
Austro-German based. And it is less so as time goes by. Hungarians do not 
-in general-dance to German, Austro-German tunes. As a matter of fact 
there is no "innate" love in the Hungarian "make-up" for the German. 
Throughout the centuries Hungarians actually disliked Germans (even some 
Hungarian songs reveal that fact). Yes, as a historical, geographical 
necessity Hungarians "compromised" with and accommodated to the Germanic 
world. The German danger to the survival of the "magyar" was no less than 
the Slavic. Hitler had absolutely no regard, respect for the Hungarians. 
On the cover of the first edition of Hitler's Mein Kampf in a field of 
triangle the races of mankind are arranged in a hyerarchical order: on 
the top, the Germanic race, and toward the wider bottom of the triangle 
the increasingly inferior. We, the Hungarians, according to Hitler, were 
on the bottom. The only nice thing for Hitler about Hungary was the 
geographical situation of Budapest. Just imagine if the Third Reich 
succeeded and prevailed Hitler would have levelled Hungary's national 
monuments on the Buda (hilly) side of the Denube and would have built his 
colossal builidings in the national socialist style.
Hitler needed all the allies he could get, the Hungarias were sore at the 
loss of so much territory after WW1, Hitler dangled Slovakia and Northern 
Transylvania before the nose of the Hungarian leadership as a carrot and 
the Hungarians stupidly followed the carrot that lead them into the war 
on the wrong side. Hitler hoodwinked us. And we paid very dearly.

But back to another issue that you love to bring up: the Hungarians'
origin from Mongolian regions (of course you'd love to deduce from that 
that the Hungarians are a mongoloid race and by that emphasis you want to 
imply that they are inferior). Now, what the Hungarians were is a 
controversial issue. But today's Hungarian is not what his ancestors were 
a millineum ago: they are as mixed as any nation today in Europe could 
be. But ultimately, in the community of nations, the main question is not 
what their ancestors were but what they are today: what do they 
contribute to human progress, to the progress of civilization. And the 
bottom line is that this small nation, with its diverse ethnic make up 
(and, yes, I emphasize -for I know that you would be quick to point out!- 
including its Jewish citizens) has contributed to world civilization a 
share out of proportion to its total population. It has done very well, 
it is very proud of it, and it will not sit on its glory but keep on 
doing its best.
Sincerely, Laszlo

Joska, Joska, hova lett az egykori objektivitasod ? Igen csalodtam Benned 
! foleg, hogy "csusztatsz "- nem a teljes valosagod irod meg- 
Landeszmannal kapcsoaltosan Joska, Joska. Illik ez ? Nem gondoltam, hogy 
ennyire reszrehajlo Vagy !.
Landeszmann aki alaptalan es felelotlen interjut adott: a budapesti magyar 
hitkozseg(ek) megfosztottak az orszagos forabbi tisztsegetol- es EPPEN 
ezert kellett elhagynia Magyarorszagot, miutan allasat vesztette 
kijelenteseert. Ebbol egyenesen kovetkezik, hogy a magyar zsidosag NEM 
azonositotta magat Landeszmannal, hanem  soraibol kizarta.
ezek utan Te peldanak mereszeled Landeszmannt felhozni- marmint, hogy o 
szegyelne magyarsagat ?
Bizony nem ertelek Teged ezzel a gyulolettel teli magatartasoddal. 
Nem hiszem, hogy mindezzel, altalaban szelsoseges magatartasoddal hasznara 
vallsz akar az Orszagnak, akar a felekezeti megbekelesnek- sot inkabb 
forditottjat eredmenyezed: a szelsoseges ultraorthodox csoportoknak teszel 
Te Szemelyedben komoly sizvesseget: lam lam ilyenek a magyar 
szelsojobboldaliak? Varhato ezek utan, hogy a  zsidovallasu magyarok 
toleransak legyenek. Ezt eredmenyezi a Te hozzaszolasod, hozzaszolasaid.
Joska mi van Veled? elvesztetted az allasodat? Kneyszernyugdijba kuldtek- 
nem kaptal melle valami alalst ?
Vagy egyeb csaladi banatod van? Hosszu idon keresztul egy ibjektiv, 
konservativ becsuletes,egyenes embernek tartottalak-levelezesunk reven-
Miert kellett csalodnom Benned ? 
Valtozatlan barati udvozlettel Gyuri




In article >,  
says...
>
>Wally Keeler > wrote:
>>
>>In any event, your contentions that Hungarian Jews would be ashamed or 
not
>>proud to declare their Hungarianness is extremely stupid. There might 
well
>>be some Hungarian Jews who are like that -- I have not met any
>
>Oh, so you haven't run into Rabbi Landeszmann yet in Canada? I suspect
>Ms. Egorov has.
>
>Joe

On Thu, 11 Jul 1996, Willm wrote:

> Dolf van Stijgeren wrote:
> > 
> >  (Peter Szaszvari) wrote:
> > 
> > >In article >,
> > >   conny van der wilk <conny van der >
> > >wrote:
> > >>Dear .....,
> > >>
> > >>I love you in Dutch is "ik hou van jou". Dutch is the language
> > >of the
> > >>Netherlans (that is Holland).
> > >>
> > >>I don't know how to use internet very well. So I hope you will
> > >answer me
> > >>when you read this, to tell me that I did it right.
> > >>
> > >>with love Conny
> > >>
> > >>
> > >I am sorry, but Conny's addres was not valid so I could not reach
> > >him personally.
> > 
> > >So dear Conny,
> > 
> > >I am sorry but you did it wrong.
> > >You sent your post to 10 newsgroups where nobody was interested,
> > >instead of sending it to that single idiot who started this
> > >thread.
> > 
> > >Szaszvari Peter
> > >(http://iap11.ethz.ch/users/szp/szp.htm)
> > 
> > I'm "impressed" by your language. regarding that "idiot" and Connie...
> > Feel better? (What's your problem?)
> > 
> > Dolf van Stijgeren
> > The Netherlands
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > steps taken forwards
> >                    sleepwalking back again
> 
> Hello everybody round there !
> I'm a Malagasy people and 'm very glad to translate here the sentence in
> my own language, so !
> 
> 	"Tiako ianao"
> 
> Just two words ...
> 
> Waiting to read you again
> Bye !
> 
> 
Hi!

   In Czech language: "Miluju te"

Tyros

Oh Maria, how good you are now!
What happened to you? And why don´t you go to Siberia right now and leave
this newsgroup for us?

Juan Carlos Azkoitia

dear lady,
 (Maria Egorov) wrote:
>You Hungarians are funny people.If the Austrians through Kurt Waldheim 
>play the violin in "DO it MAJOR"),you DANCE AFTER IT.
>I WANDER HOW YOU ARE GOING TO DANCE WITHOUT GERMANIC HELP.
>AS THE HISTORY PROVED IT, THIS GERMANS ARE NOT GOING TO MAINTAIN THEIR 
>POWER INDEFINITELY.
>WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO IN THIS CASE?
>Are you going to change your religion again or just the IDENTITY.
>Remember the Austrians are not the beneficiary of a superior culture 
>anymore.(By this I mean  the civilization which was transferred innocently by 
Italian >city(cita) states to the barbaric Germans
>and implicitly to others like the subjugated Hungarians).
>IF YOU THE HUNS DO NOT UNDERSTAND YOUR ROLE IN EUROPE THEN I SHOULD 
>REMIND YOU WHAT THE ENGLISH SAID(of course during second world war):
>"YOU LIVE ON THE OLD CONTINENT FOR A MILLENNIUM OR SO,BUT YOU DID NOT 
>LEARN ANYTHING".
>
 	Well, after all I think that the contribute to the
	European Histroy of the Hungarians was great and personally
	I think that they are good fellows. I believe, although
	I do not have a deep insight of Hungarian History that 
	they struggled a lot for their independence - IMHO the collapse
	of the AustroHungarian Empire was due to the strong struggle
	for independence of this population. Actually, as a Veneto,
	which is a part Italy formerly ruled by the AH Empire, I have
	to say that it was an example of good administration. Unfortunately
	the AH lacked in recognizing the autonomy of the different people
	which composed this Empire. However this is history.
	This post is cross-posted to the soc.culture.magyar only
	to show that there is at least one Italian that do not
	appreciate critics to a third-party culture
	without the right of reply (I suppose that few Hungarians read
	soc.culture.italians). About your strange vision on Italian
	history (posted in "ARE THE ITALIANS ROMANS") and about the
	part of this post relating to Italian I'll reply on
	soc.culture.italian only under the proper thread.
	Best regards,
	Claudio De Diana
	

In article >,  () wrote:

> T.M.Lutas > wrote:
> >
> >OK, let's get back here a bit to the principles. There were supported and 
> >banned categories of people, you both seem to agree on this. What do each 
> >of you think should be the moral debt that the supported owe to the banned. 
> >How about the supported to that third (and most likely largest) category 
> >the tolerated. And last of all what do the tolerated owe the banned in a 
> >moral context?
> 
> Well, I consider the tolerated ones in the middle and thus in the
> default, neutral position.  From this it follows that the moral debt is
> owed to the banned ones by the supported ones.

Let's spin this idea a bit out. If the tolerated had stood up en masse and 
refused to maintain their silence while the banned were being repressed 
wouldn't the entire system have collapsed? It's somewhat akin to the 
passer by (or more accurately a crowd of passers by) seeing a mugging or a 
drowning. If the passer by just keeps on walking a grave injury will occur 
that can be prevented. There has never been a legal requirement to aid in 
any major society that of I know but most people think that you are morally 
in the wrong if you do nothing at all to try to help, no matter how little.

Do you share this idea and do you think it applies in the case of communism?

OTOH, if the great mass of society doesn't owe anything to those who were 
banned, should those who really suffered get any preferential treatment from 
society in the form of disability pensions for their suffering? I mean 
after all, the tolerated would owe them nothing so why should they pay?

> >So what is the correct moral stance for a new regime that enters after 
> >a communist regime? Should the previous regime's appointments be respected 
> >even though you know that many of them will sabotage you at every 
> >opportunity?

> You can't change a system by leaving the old guard in their power
> positions.  It's not enough to change the people in the government
> only.  Yet mostly this is what happened in '90, but since '94 even that
> is not true. 

Too many pronouns here, spell this one out.

> >Have no fear, I know that we aren't discussing irredentism here. My 
> >positions on that question being quite clear (as are yours)
> 
> Don't be so sure about my position! ;-)

What, am I getting to you? Or is it you fear that you are not as lucid as 
you might wish? B-)

> >this in would just serve as a distraction from the main point which I really
 
> >would like to have a full discussion of.
> 
> Right on!  I've attempted such a dialog on s.c.r. in the past, but
> nobody picked up on it before.  Even though I think this post-communist
> transition has plenty of commonality in the former East Bloc countries
> that is worth to discuss.

As Jesus taught us, morality and the word of God both are things that do not 
just belong to one people. I think that a general discussion wouldn't hurt. 
Heck, on the next round (this is not a one thread conversation) I might 
consider spreading it out to a few more soc.culture groups.

DB

-- 
The Romanian Political Pages               http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus
Now available: The Romanian constitution in Romanian, an URL minder
Coming soon: An expanded Ilascu section, and victims of communism memorial!
These posts are not official PNT-cd policy unless specifically marked as such.

 wrote:

I pity those who wish to sound authentic about 1956
by name dropping such as  "were you there in 1956? On
Baros ter, on the Ulloi ut, at the Kilian laktanya, or
at the Radio building on the evening of Oct. 23?"

 // Do you pity yourself too? After all from your outpourings one
  would get the impression that you fought the revolution
  singlehandedly. My name dropping is just to show that you were
  not the only one. So, why some of us who really were there,
  shouldn't declare it so.//

Not that there is anything wrong with "name dropping" -
if the idiot could actually spell the names.

  //Poor Andras, Szucs or Pellionisz -I, myself have the suspicion
  that you are the same person. I've just browsed through "your"
  writings and there seem to be so much hint that the same individual
  writes those "epistles" that are signed either by A. Szucs or A.
  Pellionisz. It's possible that the real Andras, either for fun or for
  some pathological reasons, takes on the Mr. Hyde or Dr. Jekill
  personality. These are the things that indicate that "you" are the
  same person: both signatories frequently mix the correct and incorrect
  spelling of "liar" (i. e. mix lier, liar). Well, we all make plenty of
  errors in spelling (even natives do). But spelling errors are fairly
  typical to a person. Strange, no, both of you just love to throw
  the words lies, lied, lying, liar around?
  Both of you tote the phrase Kadar-jugend, and miserable
  and liberalbolshevik, and so and so "is not our friend"
  (our friend? looks like you, unwittingly, acknowledge the multiplicity
  of our personality) around like a machine gun.
  Both Andras refer to the retired person, ore retiree as "pensioner"
  which is correct, but not of American usage. Both frequently bestow
  the phrase "pathological lier" (sometimes correctly "liar").
  Both have phraseology and sintactical patterns in common as if the
  same brain would have concocted the ideas.
  I wouldn't pay special attention to this (after all the Internet is
  a rough place) if this "Andras" were not at times showing an ugly
  Dr. Jekill face. He can threaten: "...THEIR LIFE WILL BE MADE PURE
  HELL, THEY WILL BE DRAGGED THROUGH ALL THEIR FILTH IF THEY ARE DENYING
  HEROES OF A SMALL BUT PROUD NATION..." This is what he writes in
  his denounciation of Eva Balogh on July 9, 1996. Can we hear an echo
  of Herr Goebbels and Hitler, or Comrade Stalin's rhetoric in this
  phrase?
  But Andras can use a gutter language too when he turns Dr. Jekill.
  For one thing, in this reprimand to me, he calls me amongst others
  an idiot, a Gestapo/AVO/KGB man, likens me to OJ Simpson, a Silly ass,
  and somebody "to be up in his ass". Well, that's quite a mouthful.
  The sad thing about this is that if this Andras might also be
  Dr. A. Pellionisz, and then the poor Sillicon Valley Hungarian 
community
  is in a sad state: for Dr. Pellionisz not only a noted engineer,
  a businessman, etc. (see his illustrious resume, the list of literally
  hundreds of scientific publications: http://www.siliconvalley.com)
  but also "A San Francisco Obolkornyeki Magyar Kulturkozpont fotitkarja"
  and "A 117 Amerikai magyar szervezetet tomorito AMOSZ igazgatosagi 
tagja".//

But poor Laszlo Horvath (Gestapo/AVO/KGB man) cannot. There was
(and there is) NO "Baros ter" (wrong sp!) in Budapest; there is
only (several) Baross ter and (several) Baross utca. (It seems,
Horvath has no idea who Baross Gabor was, anyway). Poor Horvath
obviously wasn't there at the Radio where the battle started,
otherwise would not refer to it "on the evening" - since
gunfire started only at night, close to 10 P.M., and would remember
the name of the street (Bro'dy Sandor utca). And actually
there was not much at the Kilian laktanya "on the evening
of Oct. 23" - as the battle at Kilian laktanya only started
on the 24th. (There was a little activity; some conscripts in
the huge barrack handed out their rifles through some windows
to Freedomfighters - but that was in the wee hours of 24th)

  //Yes, Andras, you're correct: it is Boraros ter. I slipped.
  But a person with any reasonable knowledge of English would
  see that I am not implying that all those events occured the
  same night. Now if I wanted to place myself where I was not,
  believe me, I would've looked up the fact. As a librarian
  of the Hoover Institution Library, which is acknowledged
  to own one of the largest collections anywhere on the Hungarian
  Revolution of 1956 (ranging from monographic works through
  newspapers, posters, diaries, etc.) and as one responsible for
  that collection, I would have the opportunity to
  check out the facts. And, by the way, I would like
  to extend to you an invitation to come over to Hoover on the
  Stanford Campus and I personally would show you our institution
  and the Hungarian collection (my office is
  in Tower Building, room 115; phone: 415-725-3426). At least
  you will not insist in the future that I am Kornai, etc.
  The Szucs/Pellionisz tactic is to call an opponent by all the
  socially-politically evil phrases. Never mind that they are
  not consistent. For how can a person be a gestapo, AVO, and a
  KGB men be at the same time. For good measure he also throws in
  terms like Holocaust denier, freedom fight denier, etc.//

As for "Baros ter"; Horvath is wrong threefold.
Spelling is a trivial mistake, but if he means "Baross ter"
he clearly does not know what he is talking about. NOTHING
happened in Baross ter (on which Keleti railway terminal is
located) -- this strategic point was held with overwhelming
force and was never challenged by Freedomfighters. For weeks,
thereafter, there was but a single Soviet tank at the
intersection with Fiumei ut, barrel pointing along Rakoczi ut.
But as a third mistake, it is rather obvious, that Horvath meant
Boraros ter, rather then Baros(s).

However, even at Boraros ter there was NOTHING on the eve of
Tuesday, the 23rd, as Soviet tanks started to roll from Soroksari
ut, turning right to Ferenc korut at Boraros ter only in the
morning of 24th of October. And for downtown Baross utca, for
that matter,the only worthwile thing to mention for the 23rd
was a handful of trucks, NO armored personnel carriers, only
ordinary trucks,hauling in a whiffy stonefaced young soldiers
- obviously scared wittless- turning the corner from Baross
utca to Muzeum korut, and then turning right again into Brody
Sandor utca at the Muzeum kavehaz, slowed to a halt by the
crowd there, at about 11 P.M.)
  //Yes, one can see you're well versed. The subject must be
  your obsession to the point that you're blind to larger
  perspectives.//

So much for the obviously sloppy recall of events by "Horvath".
Now for the "szabadsagharcosok". Earlier, I took the time for
the "Hungary"-list (when someone with similar bad knowledge
and even worse intentions engaged in "freedomfight-denial")
to properly reference in accepted publications 41 instances
(the first from the 24th of October, 1956) when our heroes
were called SZABADSAGHARCOSOK. (Persons used the term were of
an extremely wide spectrum, including Maleter Pal, Kiraly Bela,
Gergely Pongratz, Cardinal Mindszenty). It is a primitive lie
that the term was concocted abroad, and after the Revolution
and Freedomfight. I will not repeat the 41 pieces of evidence
I cared to collect (there are literally thousands). It speaks,
indeed, better than anything about Horvath that he used the name
Freedomfighter for HIS financial and egoistic satisfaction,
gaining personal profit from the Freedomfight of 1956, yet
denies it for those who DIED IN FREEDOMFIGHT. This is the "man".

  //Many of us who left in 1956, whether "freedom fighters" in
  your sense of the word, or some who would have been emigrants
  in a democratic society, were extended some help by the West.
  I too accepted the opportunity to live in a refugee camp and was
  housed and fed until the authorities found me a job. And later,
  when I was offered to get free transportation to Canada, I
  accepted the offer like thousands of Hungarians. You are indeed
  a morally superior person that you declined all such offer.
  You're either a rare bird or an unashamed liar. And if you are
  the eminent scientist Dr. Pellionisz than according to your
  resume (on the Web http://www.siliconvalley.com/inst/pellionisz/
  cv.htlm) you entered the University of Technology in Budapest
  in 1962, let's say around the age of 18, then in 1956, you were
  only a snotty 12 year old. But it's unlikely that you were one
  of those few 12 year-old ones that could be seen with guns in
  their hands in Budapest, for you wouldn't have been a privileged
  to be admitted to the famous Ipari Egyetem of Budapest. Who knows
  you might have been one of those very Kadar-Jugend you're railling
  at all the time. So, wouldn't that make you the liar, the hypocrite?
  And your own resume reveals that you were moving the creme-de-la-creme
  of Hungarian Academia, scholarships, grants to travel to foreign
  countries. You took Comrade Kadar's cake and you ate it. Then, you
  and your fellow Kadar-Jugend (for you and your ilk are the true
  Kadar-Jugend) you have the cheek to assume the role of spokesman
  for the 1956 Revolution.//

I used number 41, since in the OJ Simpson trial this was
the number of an evidence - and proud "Americans", like Horvath,
have proven to the World that one can get away with double
murder - no matter what evidence shows and how many times.

  //I see that you're fascinated by this OJ business since you
  use these sentiments in your diatribes against others too.//

And I wish I could appropriately call Horvath "silly ass", but
that would not be fair. A "silly ass" is not malicious
and Gestapo/KGB/AVO-type, like Horvath is, who brownnoses
everywhere, to make his nose more to his taste. Kornai and
whatshername let go - now its Horvath's turn to be up in my ass,
and badmouth Freedomfighters at the same time. Clearly, a
third-rate effort, an utterly boring epigon.

For Horvath's feeble attempt at "patriotism", maybe some at Hoover
can teach him some lesson that it DOES appear to be "American"
for members of small and proud nation to speak up, and FIGHT the
Holocaust-deniers and FIGHT those spineless who either did not
take part in the Hungarian Freedomfight of 1956, or escaped
it alive -- AND don't feel that they OWE the name to those who
gave their (mostly very young) lives to Freedom of Hungary.
Is Horvath chicken enough to be footsoldier among Freedomfight-deniers
only, or is he brave to be an officer of "Holocaust-deniers", too?

  //Are you Jewish by any chance Andras? A crypto Jew? Why is this
  hungup on Holocaust deniers? Yes, Holocaust deniers are a mean
  bunch. Do you think that Jews couldn't be good Hungarian patriots?
  Or Greeks for that matter? Or Hungarians of Slavic origin? There
  were Jews too amongst the freedom fighters. And I have known one.
  But you're diplomatic: you cover all your flanks: stamping your
  opponent with every possible socially-politically undesirable
  quality you imply that you are free of all those qualities, that
  you are pure. And you have the gumption to call people "yellow" and
  chicken. Is there a bigger coward than you are?//

In general, it is very "American" to stand up for Freedom and
fight those who wish to trample Freedom to death.

  //If you admit that it is very American to stand up for freedom
  then why you try to censor opinions. You outright threan
  people with violence if they don't accept "your" interpretation
  of events. I quoted your very words above. If you live here
  then you should respect the American notion of freedom of
  opinion, speech, etc. and not sound like Herr Goebbels.//

Except in 1956, that is. At that time, most in America just
sat on their silly ass and did nothing to help Freedomfighters
of Hungary as they bled to their deaths.

And except in 1996, when brownnosing liberal idiots claim
themselves to be "American" (to qualify to ruin her), and dare to
take away even the name of those who fought - and died! -
for Freedom.

  //Thank you for calling me a liberal (although I would prefer it
  without "idiot". I showed it to my wife, children, and colleagues:
  so far I've been considered by some as a "bloody" conservative,
  a Reaganite, a Hooverite, etc. It was a surprise to them that some
  Hungarian considers me to be a liberal, or liberal bolshevik. Of
  course, they are wandering that if according to Hungarian standards
  I am a liberal than aren't Hungarians outright fascists?//
    Sincerely, Laszlo


Wally Keeler ) wrote:
: On July 14/96 Maria Egorov wrote:
: |Is that so?or you make up stories.

: Subject: Re: Wally Keeler's Resp. to Maria
: On July 13/96,m Maria Egorov wrote:
: |I am not interested in your stories lady.
: |I am a Russion Jew,the one you dislike.

: Hello Maria;
: Very interesting that you are a Russian Jew.
: I have two friends who are Russian Jews.

: The past two days you have responded to the usenet posts of Gyorgy Kovacs,
: Dr Laszlo Balogh, and others. They have been somewhat insulting to you, etc,
: yet you replied to them. You have not extended that courtesy to me in spite
: of the fact that I have not behaved as those mentioned. So once again, I
: repost my material for you and request that you please read it and answer to
: it specifically. I will send it to you via email also so that I can be sure
: that you did not miss it. 

stuff deleted

: Now I have been gracious enough to reply to your specific contentions, but
: you have failed to specifically address mine. I post them here again, and
: ask that you reply directly to each and every FACT as presented:

You have been a most discourteous woman Maria if that is all you can 
reply to Wally Keeler's lucid and detailed post. He took the time to 
address every point you made, and when you asked questions (challenged 
his arguements) he replied to each one posed. But you, on the other hand, 
are simply too selfish, too self-centred, and lack both the knowledge and 
intelligence to reply.

Hi, I'm posting this article from Italy.

I've just started learning  Hungarian as an auotdidact
and I would like someone in this Newsgroup to help me 
with the following:

Sajnos kave nincs / sajnos kavet nincs

Which of the two sentences is correct??

Thank you for your time.

Achille Albertelli

E-mail: 

Subject: Re: Wally Keeler's Resp. to Maria
On July 13/96,m Maria Egorov wrote:
|I am not interested in your stories lady.
|I am a Russion Jew,the one you dislike.

Hello Maria;
Very interesting that you are a Russian Jew.
I have two friends who are Russian Jews.

Dr Roman Fin was Toronto's leading defender for Soviet refuseniks. He had
been an acquaintance with Andrei Sakharov and his Jewish wife, Yelena
Bonner. I worked with Dr Roman Fin as a liaison. Dr Fin, had been arrested
for his human rights activities and incarcerated in a psychiatric ward,
underwent drug torture, then was sent to the Gulag. He was later forced into
exile. He was an exceedingly intelligent and gentle man. In spite of what
was done to him as a Jew by his fellow Russians, he remained proud of his
Russian heritage.

Another friend, whom I will not name, came from Leningrad. He is currently a
psychiatrist here in Toronto. We befriended each other after a peace
demonstration. He went to protest against the naivite of the young
peaceniks. I went for the same reason. The following year, he and I rented a
truck and mounted a mock SS20 nuclear missile on it and drove it around
Toronto. It was good pr. It won the rage of Toronto's peaceniks. Pity. In
any event, this Russian Jew, who had undergone the same persecution as Dr
Roman Fin for his "ZIONIST" activities (persecuted for being a Jew) he
remained proud to be a Russian.

The past two days you have responded to the usenet posts of Gyorgy Kovacs,
Dr Laszlo Balogh, and others. They have been somewhat insulting to you, etc,
yet you replied to them. You have not extended that courtesy to me in spite
of the fact that I have not behaved as those mentioned. So once again, I
repost my material for you and request that you please read it and answer to
it specifically. I will send it to you via email also so that I can be sure
that you did not miss it. 

Da svidanya

#######################################################################

 (Maria Egorov) claims:
|Lets put it like this, do you think Albert Einstein after arriving in 
|United States, started to yell "I am a German"?.NOT AT ALL.

I don't think he was yelling any message. I'm a fifth generation Canadian
and I've never yelled - "I am a Canadian." NOT AT ALL. Do you yell out your
nationality or ethnicity. The salient point is that Albert never <denied>
his roots.

Maria Egorov asks:
|Do you really think that the Jews from Hungary (those who escaped the 
|death camps) came to United States and proudly said:"I am a Hungarian" or 
|"long live Hungary"? 

They are more likely to say, Death to the fascist government, than to say
Death to Hungary and Hungarians. They are more likely to say they are
Hungarian, but absolutely they would not say, I am a fascist. These are the
nuances that you are unable to appreciate.

If you read George Faludy's autobiographical book, My Happy Days In Hell,
you'd find that he had no problem with being a Hungarian and Jew. He made
absolutely no effort to hide nor to even play down the fact. He was neither
ashamed of being Hungarian nor Jewish. He certainly didn't BECOME AMERICAN.
Although he moved to Toronto for a couple decades, and appreciated it more
than any other place, he remained a proud Hungarian and Jew, even with
Canadian citizenship. I knew other Hungarians and Jews and they never
expressed the kind of crap you think they do.

Maria Egorov continues to query:
|Do you really think that these same Jews(only older)would change their
|minds just because you changed the government?. Or because the new
|government is experimenting with the art of Public Relations?.Or because
|Germany&Austria,the masters of Public Relations and your traditional
|friends, are advancing the idea that Hungary is the most progressive
|democracy in Eastern Europe?.

What "traditional friends"?? I'd say Poland, Czech Republic and Hungary are
more Western than Slovakia, Romania, the Balkans and consequently more
inclined to share and practice liberal democracy. In this regard, yes
Hungary is one of the most progressive democracies in Central (aka Eastern)
Europe. Do you claim otherwise?

Maria Egorov claims:
|Any gesture of public relation(like inviting Jews to your home,etc.)will 
|attenuate the pain,but they will definitely not become the Hungarians,
|Austrians or Germans you wish them to be(PERIOD) 

I don't wish them to become anything other than what they are. You are silly
to suggest that George Faludy increased his identity-pain (angst) just
because he visited my home. How incredibly stupid you are(PERIOD)

Maria Egorov declares:
|In the past Hungary, Germany & Austria called the Slavs,Jews&Gipsies:
|"RATS"&"SUBHUMAN"

Yes, too many Hungarians, Germans and Austrians, but I would not claim that
the nation of Hungarian did. You are indulging in the broad brush approach
of nationalistic slander, which is a chauvinist streak you share with Gabor
Barsai when he claims that Canadians are uneducated. Similar claims are made
by rednecks about "niggers" being uneducated, or nazis that Jews and Gypsies
did not deserve education, indeed, a couple steps more and they decided that
they didn't need life at all.

Maria Egorov claims:
|This mentality still persists in Hungary and it is hidden as it is in 
|Germany and Austria of today. 

A minority of Hungarians continue with this mentality. Do you suggest that
such a mentality is prevalent throughout Hungary? and that the current
government shares such a repugnant mentality that it is now implementing
anti-Jewish legislation? I think not -- quite the opposite. Sorry, Maria,
unless you can come up with some real life, concrete examples to support
your racist contentions, then I don't think you will be able to convince
anyone of your thesis.

Maria Egorov states:
|In these circumstances I know that there are no Jews who would proudly
|say:I am a Hungarian.

In those circumstances I know and can name several Jews who are proudly
Hungarian and live in Hungary. The fact that you do not know of any may be
because you are an anti-semite.

Maria Egorov indignantly asks:
|You are accusing me of being a racist?. 

Yes I am. Everything you post is based on the thesis of racism. The world,
as you view it revolves around race or nationality or ethnicity. It is all
you focus on. 

Maria Egorov indignantly declares:
|Mr.,this is an unconvincing statement and it has to do with your ability of
|comprehension.

You fail to comprehend the very real fact that there are Hungarian Jews (and
I know them, personally) who are proudly Hungarian. You are unable to accept
that reality.

[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]

Now I have been gracious enough to reply to your specific contentions, but
you have failed to specifically address mine. I post them here again, and
ask that you reply directly to each and every FACT as presented:

|(Maria Egorov) wrote:
||I should remind you that the Nobel Prize Winners you prezented to us are 
||all nonHungarians. 
|
|Liviu Iordache presented from Brittanica:
|]Wigner, Eugene Paul, (b.Nov.17,1902,Budapest,Hung.)
|]Olah, George A. in full GEORGE ANDREW OLAH (b.May 22,1927,Budapest,Hung.) 
|
|Wally Keeler wrote:
|>Being born in Hungary's capital city confers no Hungarianness upon a
|>person? Growing up within Hungary, within the Hungarian language, within
|>the Hungarian culture, within the Hungarian educational system confers no
|>Hungarianness upon a person? In spite of this Wigner and Olah cannot be
|>regarded as Hungarians or should be regarded as "nonHungarians" as you put
|>it? Please explain Maria Egorov. Please do. 

Please explain to all the Hungarians reading soc.culture.magyar why Eugene
Paul Wigner and George A Olah are "nonHungarians". If you cannot adequately
explain this, then I suggest you leave s.c.m.

|Maria Egorov explained:
||Another point which you should remember:
||The Hungarians sent over 300,000 Jews to forced labor camps and GAS
|>                                     \
|>                                      and the cigany, don't forget
|>                                      the despised subhuman cigany.
||
||CHAMBERS during WW2. (activity which was concluded proudly by the
||Hungarians, without German supervision). 
|             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|Adolf Eichmann was only a clerk right?

     Well, tell us what the Britannica says about Adolf Eichmann, 
     Maria. Look it up and post the answer. We'll compare notes 
     and see whether your absurd and unfounded claim that their 
     was no "German [nazi] supervison" of the Jewish assembly 
     line to the death camps is true or not

|Maria Egorov claimed:
||Knowing these facts, do you think it is easy for the Jews born in Hungary,
||survivors of the holocaust, (who are living abroad for obvious reasons) to
||identify themselves as Hungarians? NOT AT ALL.
|
|Wally Keeler wrote:
|Wrong. The great Hungarian poet, George Faludy, visited my home several
|times. He is a Jew. He suffered at the hands of the Nazis. He also suffered
|at the hands of the Communists. He is proud of his Hungarian identity, his
|Hungarian language, his Hungarian culture. In spite of 20 fruitful and
|peaceful years in Toronto, Canada, his Hungarianness compelled him to
|return to his beloved Hungary to end his days in his homeland.
|
|A good friend of Faludy's, George Egri, also a Hungarian Jew, who lived in
|Toronto for decades, returned to Hungary after the Communists ate dirt. He
|was a journalist and columnist in Toronto. I had many visits with him at
|his home and mine. When I met up with him in Budapest, he waxed poetic
|about being "home, I am home again." George Egri also suffered the same
|situation as George Faludy.
|
|Another good friend of George Faludy and George Egri, who is also a
|Hungarian Jew, and who shared their experience in Hungary -- also had been
|imprisoned together in the infamous Rajk concentration camp, although not
|returning to Hungary (because he has a good life in Canada) does not
|forsake his Hungarianness. His name is George Gabori. His experiences can
|be read in his book, WHEN EVILS WERE MOST FREE.
|
|I'm afraid, your claim that "NOT AT ALL" has no basis in fact. Your type of
|claim, that Jews are Jews, and can never be One with the native culture of
|any nation, is the mark of an anti-semite. A Jew can be every bit as much
|of a Hungarian as a Catholic Hungarian can be Hungarian. 

       In the case of the three Hungarian Jews I know of above, 
       they committed their pride of their Hungarianness and 
       Jewishness to published writing. You can't get more public 
       than that. Now I suggest you re-think your absurd and 
       unfounded claim of "NOT AT ALL". 

|Maria Egorov claimed:
||The Hungarians sent over 300,000 Jews to forced labor camps and GAS
||CHAMBERS during WW2. (activity which was concluded proudly by the
||Hungarians, 
|
|Wally Keeler wrote:
|This should read "Some Hungarians sent over ... (activity which was
|concluded proudly by a few Hungarians..." 

     If I rewrote your statement to say as follows:

             Some Hungarians sent over 300,000 Jews to forced 
             labor camps and GAS CHAMBERS during WW2. (activity 
             which was concluded proudly by a few Hungarians...

     would you find that agreeable? Let us know how you view the 
     truth and reality. I think if you said it this way, it would 
     indicate reasonableness and that you have a bit of balance. 
     Otherwise, the following prevails:

|Wally Keeler wrote:
|Your method of stating it, Maria, suggests that you may well be a racist
|slanderer; it is similar to the nationalist, chauvinist blather of that
|DUNGarian, Gabor Barfsai who claims, "I know it's a contradiction to be a
|Canadian and be educated." Individuals who slander entire peoples with the
|broad brush of pejorative archtypes, are simply incapable of discoursing in
|a manner that appreciates the nuances and particulars of the mosaic of
|life. The same thread appears to pass through Maria and Gagbore Barfsai.

-- 
Wally Keeler                       Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency            is
Peoples Republic of Poetry              Poetency
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

) writes:
> Wally Keeler > wrote:
>>In any event, your contentions that Hungarian Jews would be ashamed or not
>>proud to declare their Hungarianness is extremely stupid. There might well
>>be some Hungarian Jews who are like that -- I have not met any
> 
> Oh, so you haven't run into Rabbi Landeszmann yet in Canada? I suspect
> Ms. Egorov has.

I guess I've been driving on the wrong streets.

On July 6/96  Gagbore Barfsaid:
|Oh, yes. This comment comes from being the sexist pig that you are,
|doesn't it? You seem to be suffering from amnesia, I guess you still
|haven't seen a vet to get your lobotomy. Heck, I even offered to help ya,
|by supplying the hammer and nails. I bet your dorky lil' wifey loves it
|when you're the "man" o' the house:
|
|"Gimme some food, ya dried up dumb cunt! Then fuck off!"
|
|The Friendly Vital Organ aka Mr. Bland Gland

And then...

On July 7/96  Gagbore Barfsaid:
|Is this an insult? Am I supposed to feel insulted? Is this one of those
|moronic "insults" like Bland Gland, which makes no sense? Well, jumping
|horny toads, Wallace, who does represent the "Hungarian community"? Does
|PM Cretin...ooops, I mean, Chretien represent the "Canadian community"?
|Does he stand for the morals and values of all Canadians? Does the PQ
|represent the "francophone community" of Canada? Or Quebec? What a
|cliche...as your dorky lil' wifey would sayest: "You're pawn of Bic,
|Wally." Get an education (although, I know it's a contradiction to be a
|Canadian and be educated); better yet, get a lobotomy from your local vet.
|I'll happily supply the chainsaw, too. Happily, I represent myself.
|Happily, I also represent part of the Hungarian community. You, on the
|other hand, represent all the pseudo people in the Pseudo Republic of
|Pseudo Poetry (PROPP). Now, shoo, use the first joint you roll to go back
|to your silly PROPP.
|Gabor

And once again...

On July 9/96  Gagbore Barfsaid:
|Dr. Keeler, or should I write, Dr. Killer, besides being a dumbass, you
|are also a slanderer. Solon said "Poets tell many lies." (free
|translation, ya get the jist, though.) I guess pseudo poets like you tell
|only lies. But then again, you are only a Caca-nadian, and probably have
|never even heard of Solon. If you consider ciganys to be subhuman, please
|tell us why.
|
|And your little ditty about how niether Mr. Kovacs nor I represent the
|Hungarian community, well, is very remniscent of the commie era. Like
|Kadar, or Rakosi stating that "We should feel no pity for these traitors,
|they don't represent the Hungarian community." Then POW, a bullet to the
|brain or the last trip to the gallows.
|
|Who are you to decide who represents the "Hungarian community"? Just like
|Maria, who decided that Jews cannot feel at home in Hungary? So up yours,
|you shitkicker. Yes, you fartknocker, I do represent, happily, the
|Hungarian community, just like Mr. Pellionisz or Ms. Balogh or Mr. Pannon
|or Mr. Kovacs, or Ms. Bali. You may not agree with what people represent,
|but that's the "mosaic of life", you dip.
|Gabor

A couple unimportant posts skipped for brevity...

On July 12/96  Gagbore Barfsaid:
|Oh, Wally, why do you always forget to mention your name when talking about 
|chauvinism? If you claim I'm a chauvinist, you can claim the same title for
|yourself, too.
|
|Try to think rather than misrepresent for the purpose of gaining the moral
|high ground.

Given the response to your posts, from me and everyone else in SCM, it
should be apparent even to you, that you are being ignored -- and rightly
so. Get used to it.
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

Nem tudom magyarul vagy angolul irjam le a keresemet.

Szeretnem segitseget kapni hogy hogyan kell irni szakmai
oneletrajzot magyarul. A hugomat probalom segiteni hogy
talaljon munkat 5 eves 'szabadsag' utan. 
Neki Diplomaja van mathematika - fizika - abrazolo geometriabol,
es 15 evet dolgozott Honeywell rendszer fejleszteseben es
dokumentalasaban (angolul is).

Would somebody please send me guidelines or an accepted 
'standard' for writing a resume or a cv in hungarian
I am trying to help my sister to find a job after 5 years 
of hiatus. She has a diploma in math/physics/geometry and
worked as a Honeywell system engineer for 15 years.
(I find her "szakmai oneletrajz" kind of strange, since 
i only learned to write Vitae and resumes in English).
In the last 4-5 years she lost touch with her ex firends and
associates, so it is up to me to help her 6000 miles away.

Thank you in advance,
Elore is koszonom,
peter

Sajnos kavet nincs is grammatically incorrect - you don't need the t in 
kave, as kave is the subject (if you like or complement) of the sentence. 
-t is for direct objects only. It may be confusing if you try to 
translate into or from your own language. If it has a structure similar to 
English or German "We haven't got any coffee" then obviously coffee is 
the object. Hungarian uses a different structure for showing possession, 
even in situations that seem odd. If you go into a shop you'd ask "Van 
kave?" (lit. is there coffee) rather than ask: Have you got any coffee?

Also often the singular is used whereas you (not being Hungarian) would 
expect a plural. E.g. Van gyufa? = (lit.) Is there (a) match? = Have you 
got any matches. 

But that's enough waffle about Hungarian.

David MAtley

Internet Visual ( http://www.nexus.net.mx/~darias)

E zine from Mexico... with Chat Rooms and many things.... entertainment, 
Culture, Music, Links to many places..... etc.

Plus Rock Music in spanish on line (internet Wave)

Asi que conectate a Internet Visual.... 
la mejor forma de Navegar en tu idioma!!!!

Saludos desde Villahermosa Tabasco en Mexico
Daniel Arias Delacruz

Nathan Lipson wrote:
> 
> Hard to imagine life away from the net, but I'll be on the road for some time
.
> I need to check my mail at least. Do you know of Internet Cafes in the
> the following cities:

[snip]

You know what - you definately need time away from the net  ;-). I just got bac
k from
3 weeks in the Greek Islands, and I'm so thankful to not even thinking about a 
computer
all that time :-)

I even considered bringing my portable, but so happy I didnt.

Try it ! I dare you ;-)

Sincerely yours

0rjan Sandland
Azlan Norway AS

In article >,
   Ivan Marinov > wrote:
>
>Fetuses are human beings. Period. You're talking nonsense. Period.
>
Regular Marinov "periodicals" :)


Szaszvari Peter
(http://iap11.ethz.ch/users/szp/szp.htm)

In article >, Italian Autodidact 
> wrote:
>
>Hi, I'm posting this article from Italy.
>
>I've just started learning  Hungarian as an auotdidact
>and I would like someone in this Newsgroup to help me 
>with the following:
>
>Sajnos kave nincs / sajnos kavet nincs
>
>Which of the two sentences is correct??
>
>Thank you for your time.
>
>Achille Albertelli
>
>E-mail: 
>


My Hungarian comes from my parents, I didn't "study" the language. My instinct 
says:

Sajnos, nincsen kavet.

If you want to say: I'm sorry, I don't have coffee.

Margarita

Georg Fischer > wrote:

>Joska, Joska, hova lett az egykori objektivitasod ? Igen csalodtam Benned 
>! foleg, hogy "csusztatsz "- nem a teljes valosagod irod meg- 
>Landeszmannal kapcsoaltosan Joska, Joska. Illik ez ? Nem gondoltam, hogy 
>ennyire reszrehajlo Vagy !.

Kedves Gyuri Ba'!
Attol tartok, hogy itt megint valami felreertesrol van szo, mint ahogy a
multkor felreertetted a Kocsis Tamasnak irt valaszomat, amiben az ot
idezo reszt sajatomnak gondoltal (tudod, amiben o azt kerdezte, hogy
milyen nemzetisegu Spiro).

Ugy latom a Landeszmann szemelyet ert gunyos megjegyzesemet Te az egesz
zsidosag kritikajanak tartottad egy feluletes olvasas alapjan.
Tehat lassuk csak mit is irtam.  Eloszor Wallyt idezem:

>>In any event, your contentions that Hungarian Jews would be ashamed or not
>>proud to declare their Hungarianness is extremely stupid. There might well
>>be some Hungarian Jews who are like that -- I have not met any

Figyelmedbe ajanlom az utolso sort, amiben Wally elismeri, hogy lehetnek a
Maria Egorovhoz hasonloak, bar o meg nem talalkozott ilyennel.
Erre fel utaltam a Kanadaba "emigralt" Landeszmannra, aki szerintem
Egorovhoz hasonlo nezeteket vall.
T
>Oh, so you haven't run into Rabbi Landeszmann yet in Canada? I suspect
>Ms. Egorov has.

Tehat itt szo sincs a magyar zsidok osszessegerol, hanem csak
Landeszmannrol, akirol en is tudom, hogy elenyeszo kisebbsegben talalja
magat nezeteivel.  Tehat nem ertem honnan ez az alaptalan vadaskodasod
ellenem.  Ismerve Teged valamennyire, csak azt tudom elkepzelni, hogy
cikkeimet valami olyan optikaval olvasod, amihez masok interpreteciaja
szolgalja a lencset.  Nem kell nagy fantazia, hogy kitalaljam kik
lehetnek azok az "optikusok".

Tisztelettel,
Pannon J.

In article >,
   Ivan Marinov > wrote:
>Peter Szaszvari wrote:
>
>> We say only that there is no apparent reason to suppose a god.)
>
>Wrong! There is a very much apparent reason to suppose that God exists. 
>The reason is the existence of the Universe.
>
...and all the things we don't understand. You made me really laughing.
You want to say that there is only one single reason to introduce the concept 
of god, that we don't understand how the universe started to exist.
So I tell you the explanation WITH a god is not better or more acceptable 
or more convincing any bit.


Szaszvari Peter
(http://iap11.ethz.ch/users/szp/szp.htm)

Daniel Arias > wrote:

>Asi que conectate a Internet Visual.... 
>la mejor forma de Navegar en tu idioma!!!!

Sera' que ha' ai alguem que fale castelhano e que mande um e-mail a
este senhor a explicar que em Portugal nao se fala espanhol?

Raios! Ate' os hispanicos nos confundem com os espanhois!

	Jorge

 wrote:
 
> Therefore the fetus as no right to injure the mother.  ALL, 100%, every
> single full term pregnancy, causes some degree of harm to the mother.
> Why do you wish to grant the fetus a "right" that you admit you do not
> have?  Are you arguing that you should have a right to punch your 
> mother
> in the face?

Fetuses are human beings. Period. You're talking nonsense. Period.

-- 

Ivan

---
Ivan Marinov - Maximilian Valenski
---



---
"The Western world has lost its civil courage, both as a whole, 
and separately, in each country, each government, each 
political party, and of course in the UN. I have spent all my 
life under a Communist regime, and I will tell you that a society 
without any objective scale is a terrible one indeed. But a 
society with no other scale but the legal one is not quite worthy
of man either." (A. I. Solzhenitsyn)
---
"Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake:
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." (Jesus)
---
WARNING! Flames in my mailbox are subject to a fee of one
million US Dollars for processing. The act of e-mailing 
constitutes acceptance to these terms.
---

Krasen wrote:

> Once again for Penio: No law in the U.S., nor the Constitution, nor the
> Bill of Rights, Declaration of Independance etc., give right to live of
> embryos.

This is because the authors of these documents were sure that embryos are 
human beings, so they don't need special protection. 

> This issue has been settled by the Supreme Court which is the
> highest institution competent to make this decision.

Is the Supreme Court a higher authority than the Constitution?
 
-- 

Ivan

---
Ivan Marinov - Maximilian Valenski
---



---
"The Western world has lost its civil courage, both as a whole, 
and separately, in each country, each government, each 
political party, and of course in the UN. I have spent all my 
life under a Communist regime, and I will tell you that a society 
without any objective scale is a terrible one indeed. But a 
society with no other scale but the legal one is not quite worthy
of man either." (A. I. Solzhenitsyn)
---
"Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake:
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." (Jesus)
---
WARNING! Flames in my mailbox are subject to a fee of one
million US Dollars for processing. The act of e-mailing 
constitutes acceptance to these terms.
---