Istvan,

It heartens me to know that we can always rely on your astute observations.
I am positive your reply to S. Voss gave her invaluable insight into the
Hungarian
psyche and Hungarian politics.

Sincerely, Marina


In article >, "Istvan Lippai"
> writes:

>Dear Sharon,
>
>Hungarians elected ex-communists, for the same reason Americans elected
>Bill Clinton for president, a draft dodging, womanizing, lying thief.  It
>may seem like a counter punch, but it is not intended as such.  I voted for
>Bob Dole, a man who served the US, in the battlefields of Italy, with honor
>and courage.
>
>I believe that Eastern Europe suffers from the same moral amnesia that the
>West does.  In my opinion, it is just a temporary malaise.  In 1998, the
>Eastern Europeans will throw out the ex-communists and, in 2000, we in
>America will elect a president, we can be proud of.
>
>Sincerely, Istvan Lippai
>
>sharon voss > wrote in article
>...
>> I was reading an article regarding the trend in Eastern European
>> countries, of electing members of the former communist parties. I am
>> having a hard time finding information in regards to Hungary . Could
>> someone please be so kind as to provide me with any additional
>> information that might help me understand why this is happening and
>> where I could obtain more information.
>>                      Thank You for your time,
>>                              Sharon Voss

At 01:18 PM 3/7/97 -0500, Andy Kozma wrote:

<snip>
>>JoE:as a fellow ontarrian,and liberal,We have to look sensibly at these
>closing.
>It is impossible to have so many hospitals,wich are virtualy giving the same
>services.There is tremendous overhead,and with fewer hospitals,lets hope we
>will still have the same services.
>I would rather point the fingers at the hospitals themselves who believed we
>can afford this for ever.There is less and less mony,not only because of the
>30%tax cut.
>My wife is an RN,at Mount Sianai hospital.One of the finest,and best.(not
>because she workes there),but there thinking is patient care.
>Lets be reasonable,and lets see realy what will happen.For a change I have
>to agree with the Comission,whose job was,to cut,but at the same time,ensure
>the best care possible.
>Lets hope so Joe.
>Andy.

Andy,

You have more faith in the Commission, that's going around the province
closing hospitals, than some of the members of the Conservative party.  You
know that last week, in the Ontario legislature, six Conservatives, AND the
speaker of the house, voted with the opposition to stop the Commission from
closing any more hospitals.  And no doubt you've heard some of the horror
stories, such as a patient who was dead on a stretcher in a hospital in
Peterborough and the nursing staff was too busy to notice.  Faith is a good
thing in religion but it has little use in medicine.

I'm not saying that the system can't be improved, but closing 30 per cent of
the hospitals in Toronto, and many others across the province, is too fast
and too rash.  People will suffer and that's not the way our medical care
should work.

Joe Szalai

In article >, "Miklos K. Hoffmann"
> writes:

>Sam,
>there was "noise" on the list. ( e.g. Eva at 12:46:28 EST
>on the "Health Care List" - yes, Eva, will give some info
>on the German Health System. Came back late nignt from Debrecen,
>not Kiskoeroes :-) )
>Your message didn4t come thru the the T-Online Mail ( my normal
>provider, where the messages from the List normally arrive ) but
>on a sepatare channel via Netscape. Here I do answer, too. Have no
>explanation. Did they put you in quarantine?
>Miklos
>
>--------------108F25F84CAD--

It's just that wonderful AOL technology working to keep me in close touch with
the rest of the world. Sometimes I feel like I'd be better off with a pen,
paper, envelopes and pile of stamps.
Sam Stowe


"Taniwha is waiting for me
just below the surface of life..."
-- Split Enz

This is a test message.
A.SZ.

 on Sun Mar  9 12:45:13 EST 1997 in HUNGARY #936:

>        I just read an article in HVG, the leading economic weekly of
>Hungary, about the farmers' protest and specifically about the wine-growers
>in Hungary. According to the Central Statistical Office approximately 3,5
>million hectoliter of wine/year is being produced in Hungary. At the same
>time, they sell/consume approximately 4,5 million hectoliter. Where do you
>think the 1 million hectoliter is coming from?
>
>        Eva Balogh

You may want to look up the statistics on imports.  That may hold the answer.

Ferenc

In article >, "Istvan Lippai"
> writes:

>Subject:       Re: Electing ex-communists!
>From:  "Istvan Lippai" >
>Date:  9 Mar 1997 11:44:22 GMT
>
>Dear Sharon,
>
>Hungarians elected ex-communists, for the same reason Americans elected
>Bill Clinton for president, a draft dodging, womanizing, lying thief.  It
>may seem like a counter punch, but it is not intended as such.  I voted for
>Bob Dole, a man who served the US, in the battlefields of Italy, with honor
>and courage.

And who served Dwayne Andreus and Archer Midlands Midland with equal attention
to duty and without bothering himself about ethical niceties when his loyalty
to his rich campaign backers screwed the American people in general.

>
>I believe that Eastern Europe suffers from the same moral amnesia that the
>West does.  In my opinion, it is just a temporary malaise.  In 1998, the
>Eastern Europeans will throw out the ex-communists and, in 2000, we in
>America will elect a president, we can be proud of.

You mean you're planning to vote for Bill Bradley, too?
Sam Stowe




"Taniwha is waiting for me
just below the surface of life..."
-- Split Enz

At 10:05 PM 3/9/97 GMT, Marina wrote to Istvan Lippai:

>It heartens me to know that we can always rely on your astute observations.
>I am positive your reply to S. Voss gave her invaluable insight into the
>Hungarian
>psyche and Hungarian politics.

        It is absolutely frightening that an American woman who would like
to get more information on Hungary is getting this piece of garbage from
somebody whose political views both on American and on Hungarian politics
border on the extreme. I am just hoping that Ms. Voss has more sense than to
believe this nonsense.
        Eva Balogh

Eva Balogh writes:

>        I just read an article in HVG, the leading economic weekly of
>Hungary, about the farmers' protest and specifically about the wine-growers
>in Hungary. According to the Central Statistical Office approximately 3,5
>million hectoliter of wine/year is being produced in Hungary. At the same
>time, they sell/consume approximately 4,5 million hectoliter. Where do you
>think the 1 million hectoliter is coming from?

Undoubtably, there is some "manufacturing" going on in almost every location
where
wine is being produced. A few years back when I was more involved with
business activity in Italy, the anecdotal ratio was much cited as much
higher. There was even some scandal about methanol in Italian wines (which
is possible by natural fermentation method also!) and ethylene glycol in
Austrian wines. The joke was what are people doing at the Brenner with their
car hoods up. The answer: Wine tasting. (For the unititated both compounds
can be used as antifreeze.)

At the same time, statistics are never all inclusive. In Hungary (and many
other places) there is a lot of wine produced on a home brew basis from
small garden size lots of grapes. Such production rarely makes it to the
documents of the Central Statistical Office. It is also difficult to prorate
whether this years product is the one that is sold/consumed or it is from
prior year's production. Considering the well known past goofs of central
statistical data anywhere, I would take the data with a big glass of wine.

You get very upset when I complain about historians making up history. Well
it is like winemaking some use the real stuff and some make it up otherwise.
Maybe the proportion is similar. Unfortunately most drinkers/readers do not
know the difference.

Regards,Jeliko.

At 09:47 AM 3/10/97 -0500, you wrote:
>At 10:05 PM 3/9/97 GMT, Marina wrote to Istvan Lippai:
>
>>It heartens me to know that we can always rely on your astute observations.
>>I am positive your reply to S. Voss gave her invaluable insight into the
>>Hungarian
>>psyche and Hungarian politics.
>
>        It is absolutely frightening that an American woman who would like
>to get more information on Hungary is getting this piece of garbage from
>somebody whose political views both on American and on Hungarian politics
>border on the extreme. I am just hoping that Ms. Voss has more sense than to
>believe this nonsense.
>        Eva Balogh
>
>
>What else could you expect from him?Remeber Angyalfold?
I just do not understand with his backround how the heck he can be a Dole
supporter,and at the same time write about the Clinton's close to slanderous
remarks.I might even send his notes to them.
Andy.

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:      URGENT

Background:
    The Danube lawsuit at the International Court in The Hague 
started today (March 3). This lawsuit will adjudicate the dispute
between Hungary and Slovakia concerning the rerouting of the Danube
onto Slovak territory.
    It is essential that we gain publicity on the lawsuit and the
support of world public opinion. Especially the support of American
politicians and leaders such as Secretary of State MADELEINE ALBRIGHT
would mean a lot for our cause.

What to do:
  Please help to persuade Secretary of State Madeleine Albright to
make a statement in favor of the Danube. Feel free to use the attached
form letters (letter #1 for Americans, letter #2 for non-Americans).
   IT IS IMPORTANT THAT ALBRIGHT FINDS THOUSANDS OF LETTERS IN HER
MAILBOX. Therefore please make a chain letter of this call for action.
Send it to at least 5 of your friends. 
  PLEASE ACT!! Please SEND EVEN SNAIL MAIL. These are more effective.
FURTHERMORE SEND COPIES OF YOUR LETTER TO: 
    Executive Assistant, Maura Harty
    Special Assistant, Carlene Ackerman
    Senior Advisor, Robert O. Boorstin (Room 7246)
    Assistant Secretary for Oceans, & International Environmental and
Scientific Affairs Bureau, Eileen B. Claussen (Room 7831)

address:
United States Secretary of State
U.S. Department of State
2201 C Street, NW
Washington, DC  20520

e-mail address of Madeleine Albright:


*************************************************************

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #1 for Americans:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

The Honorable Madeleine Albright
United States Secretary of State
U.S. Department of State
2201 C Street, NW
Washington, DC  20520
(E-Mail:  )

RE:  First Environmental Lawsuit (Danube) in The Hague

Dear Madame Secretary:

Please accept my congratulations on your well-deserved appointment,
which to us Americans with Central European roots gives a special ray
of hope. We hope for even greater American understanding and
compassion for the people of Central Europe, for their progress and
stability.

Madame Secretary, you now have a great opportunity to set a new tone
for American policy in connection with the Danube lawsuit, which is
beginning next week in The Hague. This new tone would be consistent
with the US policy of expanding Western structures to Central and
Eastern Europe, and of engaging the US more actively in helping to
resolve emerging international conflicts in the region by (1) urging
your Western European partners to assist more proactively; and (2)
calling on both parties (Hungary and Slovakia) to accept the
Compromise Plan prepared by the environmental NGOs and thereby
cooperate in the quest for a solution that can set an example for the
future.

Your help in resolving the Danube problem would also be consistent
with the present US policy based on a global approach to environmental
issues and on seeking to mobilize all relevant political
(multilateral, international, non-governmental and civic society)
forces to assist in avoiding environmental catastrophes caused by
bilateral agreements drawn up by non-representative governments under
the regional policy framework formerly imposed by Moscow.

Therefore please exert your influence on the outcome of the first
international environmental lawsuit in human history. You would not be
interfering in the operation of the International Court of Justice,
but rather fulfilling an American obligation. This is because it was
the Paris Peace Treaty which set the border between Czechoslovakia and
Hungary, and it was that Treaty which named the Great Powers as the
guarantors of the integrity of the two nations' territories. The
Treaty also stated that the two nations DO NOT have the right to make
changes without the prior approval of the Great Powers. Yet in 1977,
under Soviet direction, the two nations signed a contract to move the
Danube, previously their border river, into an artificial canal on
Slovak territory. For this they neither asked nor received the
necessary approval of the Great Powers.

Madame Secretary:  The International Court of Justice must be advised
that the Moscow-initiated 1977 Contract was and is INHERENTLY INVALID,
because it is in conflict with the Paris Peace Treaty. It is both the
legal obligation and the moral duty of the United States to fulfill
her role as a guarantor of the Paris Peace Treaty. Even more
importantly, it is in the interest of the United States to make sure
that the Danube is returned to its riverbed, thereby restoring the
political and ecological stability of the region.

Madame Secretary, a single statement from you will resolve this issue.
Please make that statement.

Respectfully,

<Your name, address, title>


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #2 for non-American citizens:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

The Honorable Madeleine Albright
United States Secretary of State
U.S. Department of State
2201 C Street, NW
Washington, DC  20520
(E-Mail:  )

RE: First Environmental Lawsuit (Danube) in The Hague

Dear Madame Secretary:

Please accept my congratulations on your well-deserved appointment,
which gives a special ray of hope to the people of Central Europe. We
hope for even greater American understanding and compassion for the
people of Central Europe, for their progress and stability.

Madame Secretary, you now have a great opportunity to set a new tone
for American policy in connection with the Danube lawsuit, which is
beginning next week in The Hague. This new tone would be consistent
with the US policy of expanding Western structures to Central and
Eastern Europe, and of engaging the US more actively in helping to
resolve emerging international conflicts in the region by (1) urging
your Western European partners to assist more proactively; and (2)
calling on both parties (Hungary and Slovakia) to accept the
Compromise Plan prepared by the environmental NGOs and thereby
cooperate in the quest for a solution that can set an example for the
future.

Your help in resolving the Danube problem would also be consistent
with the present US policy based on a global approach to environmental
issues and on seeking to mobilize all relevant political
(multilateral, international, non-governmental and civic society)
forces to assist in avoiding environmental catastrophes caused by
bilateral agreements drawn up by non-representative governments under
the regional policy framework formerly imposed by Moscow.

Therefore please exert your influence on the outcome of the first
international environmental lawsuit in human history. You would not be
interfering in the operation of the International Court of Justice,
but rather fulfilling an American obligation. This is because it was
the Paris Peace Treaty which set the border between Czechoslovakia and
Hungary, and it was that Treaty which named the Great Powers as the
guarantors of the integrity of the two nations' territories. The
Treaty also stated that the two nations DO NOT have the right to make
changes without the prior approval of the Great Powers. Yet in 1977,
under Soviet direction, the two nations signed a contract to move the
Danube, previously their border river, into an artificial canal on
Slovak territory. For this they neither asked nor received the
necessary approval of the Great Powers.

Madame Secretary:  The International Court of Justice must be advised
that the Moscow-initiated 1977 Contract was and is INHERENTLY INVALID,
because it is in conflict with the Paris Peace Treaty. It is both the
legal obligation and the moral duty of the United States to fulfill
her role as a guarantor of the Paris Peace Treaty. Even more
importantly, it is in the interest of the United States to make sure
that the Danube is returned to its riverbed, thereby restoring the
political and ecological stability of the region.

Madame Secretary, a single statement from you will resolve this issue.
Please make that statement.

Respectfully,

<Your name, address, title>

At 08:59 AM 3/10/97 -0500, Ferenc Novak wrote:
 on Sun Mar  9 12:45:13 EST 1997 in HUNGARY #936:

>According to the Central Statistical Office approximately 3,5
>>million hectoliter of wine/year is being produced in Hungary. At the same
>>time, they sell/consume approximately 4,5 million hectoliter. Where do you
>>think the 1 million hectoliter is coming from?


>You may want to look up the statistics on imports.  That may hold the answer.

        Here is a constructive suggestion I appreciate. I looked up the
import/export statistics and unfortunately it doesn't help with our "extra"
1 million hectoliters of wine. I found two relevant tables. One stating the
forint value of export and import of wine and the other listing "the most
important" import and export items in tons. The first--value in million
forints--import: 3,425 million forints; export: 113,100 million forints.
Yes, one could say, Hungarian wines are cheaper than foreign wines. However,
the second table, which lists "the most important" export and import items,
doesn't even mention wine as an important import item while it does mention
wine as "an important" *export* item. To be precise: 103,529 tons of wine
was exported. A metric ton being approximately 1,000 kgs (1,000 liters)--we
are talking about one million hectoliters, if I didn't goof on the zeros.
        It is, by the way, not clear to me whether this 1 million
hectoliters of wine is included in the 3,5 million (or rather 4.5 million)
mentioned in the article in HVG.

        Eva Balogh

Ma reggel hallottam a magyar radioban hogy meghalt Simandy Jozsef.  80
eves volt.  A 80 eves szuletesnapjara a magyar operahaz nagy unnepseg
kereteben nekiajandekozta a Bank Ban kosztumot, amiben annyiszor enekelte
el a Hazam, hazam, te mindenem cimu ariat.

Tavaly itt volt Torontoban.  Itt is elenekelte, de sajnos, jobb lett
volna, ha megtartom emlekeimben ugy, ahogy hoskoraban enekelte.
Beke poraira!

Agnes

Dear Readers:
You may be interested in the following letters to the Editors of The Globe &
Mail. I quote:
   Re A Deal On NATO Expansion? (editorial - March 3):
   You are of course free to advocate NATO not expanding, but surely looking
at the map which you thoughtfully provided your readers at the bottom of
your editorial exposes the flaw in your argument.
   If Slovakia is not allowed into NATO, there will be established a
corridor of non-NATO members stretching from the Ukraine in the east,
through Slovakia and Austria, to Switzerland, providing easy access by
Russia right into the middle of Europe. This is the kind of defence of
Europe you would advocate?
                                    John V. Stephens, Consulate
                                 of the Slovak Republic, Toronto

   Re Chretien adds Romania To NATO List (Feb.21):
   While Prime Minister Jean Chretien rightfully supports making the Czeh
Republic a member of NATO, he is showing a considerable gap in knowledge and
judgement regarding Slovakia and Romania.
   Both countries were sluggish in applying democracy in their respective
political systems and internal politics. Slovakia, for example, is notorious
for discriminating against its sizable Hungarian minority. Romania's erratic
domestic policies and dubious practices have made it a basket-case of Europe.
   This is in contrast with Hungary, the Czeh Republic and Poland, where
democracy took real roots and the economies are robust.
   It is hard to guess, where Mr. Chretien gets his advise, but it seems to
me, as an average Canadian, that NATO should admit only the countries that
can contribute to it, not dilute its strenghts and values.
                                  Alec M. Bialski, Edmonton


   How far is The Globe & Mail is willing to go to appease the Russians? (No
NATO Expansion - editorial, Feb 19):
   Why not abandon NATO altogether? The Russians would be pleased.
   The Russians may be paranoid, but they are not stupid. They know very
well that NATO, with or without the Central European countries, is not
threatening them. On the other hand, they know that when the Central
European countries become part of NATO, Russia cannot bully them any more.
   Poland, Hungary and the Czeh Republic historically and culturally are
part of the West. It was tragic that these countries - along with other
Central and Eastern European countries - were sold out to the Soviets after
the Second World War. These countries were kept captive, exploited
economically and ruined morally, while Western Europe prospered. Your
argument, that "we are broadening a security guarantee we might one day have
to honor" does not hold water.
   Kuwait, Bosnia, etc. are not NATO members, nevertheless, Canada got involved
.
NATO memberships for Hungarians, Czehs and Poles are the best guarantee that
future involvement in this region will not be needed.
                                     Tibor Kovats, Ottawa

Dear Readers:
   Eva S. Balogh thought that (a) $32/month/person was incredibly low for
health insurance in British Columbia; Also that (b) the Hungarian health
care system must be lousy, looking at the current cost and mortality.
   My comments:
 (a): The walls of the entry hall in the local hospital are covered with
copper  plaques: Mr. X donated this, Mrs. Y donated that, etc.
      Each year I receive my house tax papers from city hall, containing the
assessment value of my property, how much I have to pay for it (less if it
is my principal residence, and even less if I passed age 65). It also lists,
what per-
centage of my tax payment goes for what, including hospital costs. I
calculated, that about $50/per year of my municipal taxes goes to hospitals.
     Doctors and nurses are paid from provincial taxes.
     When I buy a bottle of rum from the Provincial Liqueur Store, about 60%
of the price is provincial tax. About 80% of the cigarette price is
provincial tax.
Then there is provincial sales tax (7% added to the price, plus the General
Services Tax, on all manufactured items). Usually, when there is a deficit,
the government then in power increases the "Sin Tax" (tax on tobacco,
alcohol, etc.)
     The provinces have jurisdiction over their natural resources. This
means revenues in the form of royalties for mineral claims, stompage fees
from loggers, and so on.
     Further, as you may have noticed from others' comments, the federal
government returns some of the taxes to the provinces. They call these
"transfer payments". It is a tool to keep the provinces in line, when they
try to mess with the health care or other systems.
    So, it is not easy to figure out, how much Canadians pay for their
health care system. It changes from province to province and city to city,
varies with occupation, property ownership, etc., etc. The overhelming
majority would not want to change it.
   Employers, usually offer fringe benefits to their employees, that may includ
e
"extended care benefits" through private insurance companies, such as single
room when hospitalized, drug discount, etc., but the basic health care costs
are provided uniformly to everyone by provincial "medical service plans"
paid for by employers or by the self employed.

(b) About Hungary:
   My niece, who is a doctor in Kaposvar, Hungary, has visited us last year.
My neighbor, who is on the local hospital board, has arranged a whole day visit
for her. I went along. A Canadian doctor guided us through everything, from ad-
mission to brain scanning. They could not show her anything new that did not
already exists in Kaposvar.
   I think, the Hungarian health care system could be superior to the North
American one, still the mortality rate would stay high for years to come,
because of the Hungarian diet, lack of consideration given to preventive
medicine (i.e. consumptions of coffee, tobacco, alcohol, drugs, etc.),
stress and anxiety under the former political system and now due to job
insecurity, and probably for many more reasons.
   I accept that some older Hungarians have still more confidence in North
American health care systems. I know others, however, who returned to the
old country and are satisfied with the care there, or they do not give it
high priority.
   I don't think these aspects can be generalized.
   I have lived many years in developing and underdeveloped countries, where
health care was not my primary concern.

                                     Istvan L. Szabolcsy

Sharon Voss wrote:


> I was reading an article regarding the trend in Eastern European
> countries, of electing members of the former communist parties. I am
> having a hard time finding information in regards to Hungary . Could
> someone please be so kind as to provide me with any additional
> information that might help me understand why this is happening and
> where I could obtain more information.

Sharon:

Hungary is currently governed by a party that is one of the inheritors of
the es communist government. They call themselves socialist and they do not
act in all aspects like the old communists. They came into power after the
failure of the first postcommunist center right government to deal well with
the economic issues inherited from the communist goverments.

In my opinion, regardless of what type of government that came into power
after the
de facto communist government, it would have lost the second free election.
The problems of transitioning from a communist economy into a normal one is
enormous and
the population is generally impatient (and in some cases expects miracles).
The population of excommunist countries is also less experienced with the
free political process and at least to date more subject to media
manipulation, (although such behavior is not exclusive to excommunist
countries).

The maturity of the mass communication media in eastern Europe is still
behind that of the more varied western media. Most of the "communicators"
grew up under the old regime
and they seem to miss the various financial and security umbrella privilages
which existed under the communist regimes. The openness of the post
communist governments
needs a lot of improvement. What actually is under the control and the
capability of action of any government is not well understood by the general
populations in eastren Europe.

But, as an example in Romania, the post Ceaucescu government was also de
facto consisting of excommunists and they lost the second election, the same
thing happened
recently in Lithuania and will probably occur in Hungary by the next
election. It is a long road to improved economic conditions after 40 years
of communist economies. Capital accumulation, change in work habits, the
encouragement of personal initiatives
the development of business accumen and the understanding of competitiveness
are still lacking in eastern Europe. Schemes of "get rich quick" are
prevalent (just see the Albanian pyramid schemes, which had parallels in all
ex communist block countries) and when they fail, most people blame the
government rather than themselves.

It is also important to remember that Hngary on a relative basis was better
off then nearby fellow traveler countries in the last years under communist
control. While part of the improved living standard occurred becuase of
foreign (manly private western) bank loans, now when both principal and
interest needs to be paid back, people only remember the times when they
lived better albeit on borrowed funds. Under the later communist
governments, life in most eastern European countries was somewhat bucolic.
One did not really have a comparable to western lifestyle, but very few
people were in the actual poverty class. They did not have to work hard,
they did not have to think of tomorrow. It was like in the US living on
welfare. Some funds came every month, not much, but it was assured for
almost everyone without working hard or worrying about
the future. The change in that mentality is not instaneous anywhere, and
when very little local example exists showing the reason for living
differently, it is even harder.

It is also important to remember that what people got in the governments
consisting of many excommunists is different than what the previous de facto
communis governments were. They are not totalitarians, and they have the
capability of loosing elections, which never was a possibility before. Thus
their behavior is different even if they are
still not understanding exactly what democracy is. But that fault cannot be
ascribed solely to excommunists.

Hope this helps.

Regards,Jeliko.

Andy Kozma writes:
>>
>>What else could you expect from him?Remeber Angyalfold?
>I just do not understand with his backround how the heck he can be a Dole
>supporter,and at the same time write about the Clinton's close to slanderous
>remarks.I might even send his notes to them.

Andy, Clinton may actually appreciate if you send the remarks to him. Lately
he is not getting many complimentary comments, although you may get a
request for contributions. (-:

Regards,Jeliko

At 10:16 AM 3/10/97 -0500, Andy Kozma wrote:

>>What else could you expect from him?Remeber Angyalfold?
>I just do not understand with his backround how the heck he can be a Dole
>supporter,and at the same time write about the Clinton's close to slanderous
>remarks.I might even send his notes to them.
>Andy.

        Slanderous? Did you read what he had to say about Hillary Clinton
and Elena Ceusescu?

        Eva

The following is a partial statistics for Ohio farming. I would appreciate
obtaining similar data from Hungary if anyone has access to it.

Land in farms: 11,500,000 acres
Average size: 205 acres
Total # of farms: 74,000

Operations by type:
88% individual
11% partmership
 3% corporate

Size of farms:
1-69 acres   37.4% number   5.5% land area
70-179       31.3          17.8
180-499      21.6          31.2
500-999       6.8          22.8
1000+         2.9          22.7

Operators by age

under 25        1.9%
25-34          11.2
35-44          21.1
45-54          22.2
55-64          21.0
over 65        22.6

Gross farm income: USD 5,404,300,000
Expenses:          USD 4,454,200,000
of which
Real estate taxes: USD   167,200,000
Net farm income:   USD   950,100,000  (pretax)
of which
Govt subsidies:    USD   167,300,000

number of days operators work at other than farming: 200 for approx 40% of
farmers
number of farmers living on farm: 75%
number of farmers whose principal income is from farming: 50%

Of cash receipts percentage from crop or product:

Soybeans:  20.9
Corn:      20.0
Milk:      13.1
Greenhouse 10.7
Hogs        6.5
Wheat       6.1
Eggs        5.5
Cattle      5.5

I am trying to get a comparative evaluation of the economic plight or well
being of farmers between the two places. The Ohio data is from 1992 except
farm sizes and number of farms which is 1995.

Thank you in advance and
Regards,Jeliko

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:      URGENT

Background:
    The Danube lawsuit at the International Court in The Hague
started today (March 3). This lawsuit will adjudicate the dispute
between Hungary and Slovakia concerning the rerouting of the Danube
onto Slovak territory.
    It is essential that we gain publicity on the lawsuit and the
support of world public opinion. Especially the support of American
politicians and leaders such as Secretary of State MADELEINE ALBRIGHT
would mean a lot for our cause.

What to do:
  Please help to persuade Secretary of State Madeleine Albright to
make a statement in favor of the Danube. Feel free to use the attached
form letters (letter #1 for Americans, letter #2 for non-Americans).
   IT IS IMPORTANT THAT ALBRIGHT FINDS THOUSANDS OF LETTERS IN HER
MAILBOX. Therefore please make a chain letter of this call for action.
Send it to at least 5 of your friends.
  PLEASE ACT!! Please SEND EVEN SNAIL MAIL. These are more effective.
FURTHERMORE SEND COPIES OF YOUR LETTER TO:
    Executive Assistant, Maura Harty
    Special Assistant, Carlene Ackerman
    Senior Advisor, Robert O. Boorstin (Room 7246)
    Assistant Secretary for Oceans, & International Environmental and
Scientific Affairs Bureau, Eileen B. Claussen (Room 7831)

address:
United States Secretary of State
U.S. Department of State
2201 C Street, NW
Washington, DC  20520

e-mail address of Madeleine Albright:


*************************************************************

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #1 for Americans:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

The Honorable Madeleine Albright
United States Secretary of State
U.S. Department of State
2201 C Street, NW
Washington, DC  20520
(E-Mail:  )

RE:  First Environmental Lawsuit (Danube) in The Hague

Dear Madame Secretary:

Please accept my congratulations on your well-deserved appointment,
which to us Americans with Central European roots gives a special ray
of hope. We hope for even greater American understanding and
compassion for the people of Central Europe, for their progress and
stability.

Madame Secretary, you now have a great opportunity to set a new tone
for American policy in connection with the Danube lawsuit, which is
beginning next week in The Hague. This new tone would be consistent
with the US policy of expanding Western structures to Central and
Eastern Europe, and of engaging the US more actively in helping to
resolve emerging international conflicts in the region by (1) urging
your Western European partners to assist more proactively; and (2)
calling on both parties (Hungary and Slovakia) to accept the
Compromise Plan prepared by the environmental NGOs and thereby
cooperate in the quest for a solution that can set an example for the
future.

Your help in resolving the Danube problem would also be consistent
with the present US policy based on a global approach to environmental
issues and on seeking to mobilize all relevant political
(multilateral, international, non-governmental and civic society)
forces to assist in avoiding environmental catastrophes caused by
bilateral agreements drawn up by non-representative governments under
the regional policy framework formerly imposed by Moscow.

Therefore please exert your influence on the outcome of the first
international environmental lawsuit in human history. You would not be
interfering in the operation of the International Court of Justice,
but rather fulfilling an American obligation. This is because it was
the Paris Peace Treaty which set the border between Czechoslovakia and
Hungary, and it was that Treaty which named the Great Powers as the
guarantors of the integrity of the two nations' territories. The
Treaty also stated that the two nations DO NOT have the right to make
changes without the prior approval of the Great Powers. Yet in 1977,
under Soviet direction, the two nations signed a contract to move the
Danube, previously their border river, into an artificial canal on
Slovak territory. For this they neither asked nor received the
necessary approval of the Great Powers.

Madame Secretary:  The International Court of Justice must be advised
that the Moscow-initiated 1977 Contract was and is INHERENTLY INVALID,
because it is in conflict with the Paris Peace Treaty. It is both the
legal obligation and the moral duty of the United States to fulfill
her role as a guarantor of the Paris Peace Treaty. Even more
importantly, it is in the interest of the United States to make sure
that the Danube is returned to its riverbed, thereby restoring the
political and ecological stability of the region.

Madame Secretary, a single statement from you will resolve this issue.
Please make that statement.

Respectfully,

<Your name, address, title>


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #2 for non-American citizens:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

The Honorable Madeleine Albright
United States Secretary of State
U.S. Department of State
2201 C Street, NW
Washington, DC  20520
(E-Mail:  )

RE: First Environmental Lawsuit (Danube) in The Hague

Dear Madame Secretary:

Please accept my congratulations on your well-deserved appointment,
which gives a special ray of hope to the people of Central Europe. We
hope for even greater American understanding and compassion for the
people of Central Europe, for their progress and stability.

Madame Secretary, you now have a great opportunity to set a new tone
for American policy in connection with the Danube lawsuit, which is
beginning next week in The Hague. This new tone would be consistent
with the US policy of expanding Western structures to Central and
Eastern Europe, and of engaging the US more actively in helping to
resolve emerging international conflicts in the region by (1) urging
your Western European partners to assist more proactively; and (2)
calling on both parties (Hungary and Slovakia) to accept the
Compromise Plan prepared by the environmental NGOs and thereby
cooperate in the quest for a solution that can set an example for the
future.

Your help in resolving the Danube problem would also be consistent
with the present US policy based on a global approach to environmental
issues and on seeking to mobilize all relevant political
(multilateral, international, non-governmental and civic society)
forces to assist in avoiding environmental catastrophes caused by
bilateral agreements drawn up by non-representative governments under
the regional policy framework formerly imposed by Moscow.

Therefore please exert your influence on the outcome of the first
international environmental lawsuit in human history. You would not be
interfering in the operation of the International Court of Justice,
but rather fulfilling an American obligation. This is because it was
the Paris Peace Treaty which set the border between Czechoslovakia and
Hungary, and it was that Treaty which named the Great Powers as the
guarantors of the integrity of the two nations' territories. The
Treaty also stated that the two nations DO NOT have the right to make
changes without the prior approval of the Great Powers. Yet in 1977,
under Soviet direction, the two nations signed a contract to move the
Danube, previously their border river, into an artificial canal on
Slovak territory. For this they neither asked nor received the
necessary approval of the Great Powers.

Madame Secretary:  The International Court of Justice must be advised
that the Moscow-initiated 1977 Contract was and is INHERENTLY INVALID,
because it is in conflict with the Paris Peace Treaty. It is both the
legal obligation and the moral duty of the United States to fulfill
her role as a guarantor of the Paris Peace Treaty. Even more
importantly, it is in the interest of the United States to make sure
that the Danube is returned to its riverbed, thereby restoring the
political and ecological stability of the region.

Madame Secretary, a single statement from you will resolve this issue.
Please make that statement.

Respectfully,

<Your name, address, title>

Stephen Szabolcsy  quotes:

>   If Slovakia is not allowed into NATO, there will be established a
>corridor of non-NATO members stretching from the Ukraine in the east,
>through Slovakia and Austria, to Switzerland, providing easy access by
>Russia right into the middle of Europe. This is the kind of defence of
>Europe you would advocate?
>                                    John V. Stephens, Consulate
>                                 of the Slovak Republic, Toronto
>
To my knowledge Switzerland is not a member of NATO, so the non-NATO block
would lead to France, Italy, Germany etc. but the significance of
Switzerland vis-a-vis Slovakia escapes me.

>   Re Chretien adds Romania To NATO List (Feb.21):
>   While Prime Minister Jean Chretien rightfully supports making the Czeh
>Republic a member of NATO, he is showing a considerable gap in knowledge and
>judgement regarding Slovakia and Romania.

Romania apparently not as sluggish currently as Slovakia.

>   Both countries were sluggish in applying democracy in their respective
>political systems and internal politics. Slovakia, for example, is notorious
>for discriminating against its sizable Hungarian minority. Romania's erratic
>domestic policies and dubious practices have made it a basket-case of Europe.

Well, I would put Romania ahead of Albania and Bulgaria.

>   This is in contrast with Hungary, the Czeh Republic and Poland, where
>democracy took real roots and the economies are robust.
>   It is hard to guess, where Mr. Chretien gets his advise, but it seems to
>me, as an average Canadian, that NATO should admit only the countries that
>can contribute to it, not dilute its strenghts and values.
>                                  Alec M. Bialski, Edmonton
>
>
>

Stephen Szabolcsy writes:


>    So, it is not easy to figure out, how much Canadians pay for their
>health care system. It changes from province to province and city to city,
>varies with occupation, property ownership, etc., etc. The overhelming
>majority would not want to change it.

I am surprised that people are happy with something that they do not how much
is costing them.


>   My niece, who is a doctor in Kaposvar, Hungary, has visited us last year.
>My neighbor, who is on the local hospital board, has arranged a whole day visi
t
>for her. I went along. A Canadian doctor guided us through everything, from ad
-
>mission to brain scanning. They could not show her anything new that did not
>already exists in Kaposvar.

Based on my experiences with the Hungarian hospital system, the above is not
very complimentary about the Canadian hospital system. (or at least the
particular example given)




>   I think, the Hungarian health care system could be superior to the North
>American one, still the mortality rate would stay high for years to come,
>because of the Hungarian diet, lack of consideration given to preventive
>medicine (i.e. consumptions of coffee, tobacco, alcohol, drugs, etc.),
>stress and anxiety under the former political system and now due to job
>insecurity, and probably for many more reasons.

So both the security and the insecurity are stressful. By any chance are you
implying that the average American is practicing many preventive measures?

Regards,Jeliko

Eva S. Balogh wrote:
>
> At 10:05 PM 3/9/97 GMT, Marina wrote to Istvan Lippai:
>
> >It heartens me to know that we can always rely on your astute observations.
> >I am positive your reply to S. Voss gave her invaluable insight into the
> >Hungarian
> >psyche and Hungarian politics.
>
>         It is absolutely frightening that an American woman who would like
> to get more information on Hungary is getting this piece of garbage from
> somebody whose political views both on American and on Hungarian politics
> border on the extreme. I am just hoping that Ms. Voss has more sense than to
> believe this nonsense.
>         Eva Balogh


Oh yes, do I agree. I hope she knows, there are simple Americans, too,
with a much
more straightforward picture of the world than it really is...I agree
with Mr. Lippai that there I a crisis of values - not only in the
Western - world. He calls it moral
amnesia. I am afraid, it4s deeper than that. I would love to have his
optimism about
this being just a temporary malaise.

But in this respect (<invaluable insight(s) into Hungarian psyche and
Hungarian politics>), I am concerned more frequently, not only when
somebody is "bordering on the extreme ( what an euphemism, Eva! ).

E.g. I was watching the recent discussion about the farmer demos as an
example of deviations from true ( Manchester ) capitalism with growing
uneasiness. Unfortunately,
I was shuttling around between Budapest, Bonn and Debrecen and had no
real chance parti- cipating ( I am still shuttling, at least until
Easter-time. I hope, at least one of the tasks will be finished then. ).
Still, a few remarks.

Let4s separate the two issues:
1) Kristof didn4t want to pay taxes or a single-dimensional ( highest
value under the      heaven is just economic catch-as-catch-can )
approach to the questions Hobbes and       Locke, the Declaration of
Independence and many other instances covered more       thoroughly ( I
confess, I am aware of the fact that I am nasty, or better, a naughty
boy ). Typical, understandable reaction : <However, if you agitate for
the above, I    agitate for social revolution>- and successfully they
do, getting a much greater       mess...
2) Eva seconded and tried to prove that the egoistic, wealthy Hungarian
farmers ( or was    kulak the word? ) who have <been a fairly pampared
lot for many, many years>, <these
   guys--who are quite well off>, <have some kind of mental blocks when
the question       comes up> and the government in their infinite wisdom
and kindheartedness <now tried    to make > them <pay their fair share
of taxes>.
   ( Eva, forgive, I am aware that I am as nasty as the discussions are
again and again.
   I also admit, that I again and again object this polemic <tune>. I
hope, however that    I, hereby, convey the perception of an on-looker.
)

I hope, we will come back eventually to 1). Today, I come back to 2).

It is not possible for me now, nor do I wish, to come back to all the
heated statements, judgements ( with tumb down, all the time, with a
vehemence and eloquence worth better cases ), sentences which can and
should be objected and contradicted. I rather try to give the impression
I had.

- In most of their concerns ( objections against to much government,
taxes to high, more

###############################################################################
#
 ######
  self-relience of the citizens, more voluntary responsibility for the
community, more
###############################################################################
#
 #####
  market, etc ) I did share the opinions of the witnesses of
prosecution.

#######################################################################

However,

- I felt that, where I was familiar with the specific situation, many
exemples,           instances mentioned where based on isolated
information, hearsay and preconceptions.
  This, of course, didn4t mean that they weren4t hinting at serious real
problems in
  Hungary, Germany, Europe, Canada, even - God forgive! - U.S.A.
- When reading, listening, watching Hungarian media, or even more
travelling the          highways there, when talking to the people, I
felt the discussion was tackling with
  a different planet. Of course there are Hungarian, American, German,
Italian, Corean
  ( South only, of course ) rascals misusing the rest, block(ade)ing the
use of common    sense and insight. Of course there are well of
agricultural enterpreneurs, parasites
  not willing to give up privileges "given by the government". But there
are, and this
  appears to be the majority ( admittedly, not necessarily the leaders
), a lot of
  small farmers, not so well off, not so pampered, living on the verge
of existence.

- The cautious remarks of people LIVING IN HUNGARY ( Magda, <Karagyorgy>
were swept
  from the table.

- The debate about <the first 1 million forint>

     started without considering the difference between sales p.a. and
profit

########################################################################
  ( a quite frequent misunderstanding ).
  And again and again translating <arbevetel> ( sales ) with
income...Every economist
  would cry out loud...            #########                 ######

- It appeared that it was suggested, fair income ( not sales ) taxation
means taxition    from the first HFU ( Forint ). Impression was, this is
so in every civilized country.
  The German Court of Constitution clearly stated that taxation of the
income             necessary for sustenance is unconstitutional, I would
say, again human rights.( I       admit, there are problems all over the
world, including Germany. But one of the         institutions still
mostly functioning there is the Court of Constitution. )
- I argree that there was - and still is - the danger that extremist
politicians try to
  use the protests for own purposes. But this danger always exist. We
cannot deprive
  citizens of their right to protest for this reason.
- <Oh, and one more thing> came in : <making wine>, as a Hungarian
speciality. For        heaven4s sake : it4s an old sport since ages.
Internationally. Connaiseurs will re-
  cognise fakes. AND it was ONE OF THE COMPLAINTS the protesters had!
BTW, I had   excellent wines in Pecs and around...
- I could carry on with <wide spread tax fraud>, with long NYT articles
about the         situation in Germany ( with an alledged three-week spa
treatment every second year   free of charge to every employee in the
country ( tell me where is THAT Germany? )),
  with Magyar Narancs ( a KIStermelvket a tvbbi vallakozohoz hasonloan
kezelik -
  exactly this is a crying expropriation of the poorest ), with the
awful lot of people   who get disability who are not disabled...etc,
etc. Quite a firework. And what a
  country, what a people!
##########
  #######################
- Among all that firework, smoke, with all that black-and-white
  we lost the perception of a DEEP CRISIS of the whole agricultural
sector in Hungary.
###################################
  we lost the perception of a superficial, hasty change of the legal
framework
     ( possibly with hostile intention ) with an incredible increase in
burocracy
     ( more government, more non-productive costs and burdens )
  we lost the perception of bitter critics WITHIN the Socialist Party (
including MP
     leaving the Parlamentary Fraction ).  ######
  we lost perception of ..non solum...sed..etiam ( not only, but...,too
), the different      sides of coins
  we lost perception of the fact that there are good Hungarians ( not
only retired           ones )and bad ones...
  we lost the perception of ... but we began to become experts in
Canadian Health            Care...

We appear to have different experiences and opinions on this issue.
Forgive if I bored you.
Miklos

At 08:10 AM 3/10/97 -0800, Stephen Szabolcsy wrote:

>    So, it is not easy to figure out, how much Canadians pay for their
>health care system. It changes from province to province and city to city,
>varies with occupation, property ownership, etc., etc. The overhelming
>majority would not want to change it.

        Since Stephen wrote this I have written a piece in which I think I
pretty accurately calculated the cost of health care in Canada by simply
taking the percentage of GDP/person. I understand that the system is
complicated, but it does boil down to a certain percentage of the GDP which
is a known figure. In Canada's case 13.5 percent.

>(b) About Hungary:
>   My niece, who is a doctor in Kaposvar, Hungary, has visited us last year.
>My neighbor, who is on the local hospital board, has arranged a whole day visi
t
>for her. I went along. A Canadian doctor guided us through everything, from ad
-
>mission to brain scanning. They could not show her anything new that did not
>already exists in Kaposvar.

        I also have several physicians in my family, but I am afraid the
situation is not as simple as it first seems. I grant that lifestyle has a
lot to do with mortality. Yes, the diet is too fatty, and yes, the
percentage of smokers is one of the highest in Europe. (And even in Western
Europe the percentage of smokers is much higher than in Canada or the United
States.) And yes, a very large percentage of the population drinks too much.
However, there are some very serious problems with the whole health care
system, a fact few Hungarian doctors are ready to admit.
        First of all, believe it or not Hungary has so many doctors that one
can "dam up the Danube with them," to use a Hungarian expression. For every
76.9 people there is one physician. For comparison, in Canada the ratio is
550:1, in the United States 520:1, in France 580:1, in Switzerland 410:1, in
Sweden: 490:1. However, most of the these doctors do what in other countries
are done by qualified nurses and technicians. Until recently there was no
such thing as training of nurses at college level. (Nowadays there are a few
colleges [foiskola as opposed to egyetem] which are called "egeszsegugyi
foiskola." The Hungarian Statistical Yearbook translated it as "sanitary,"
and therefore I am not even sure whether they are training nurses or not.)
Ultrasound pictures which are done here by qualified technicians only to be
"read" by the doctors, is actually done by doctors in Hungary. One relative
of mine is a "radiologist," who spends most of her time putting that
vaseline-like stuff on people's tummy and pushing that handle back and
forth. (And by the way, the "radiologist" is a heavy smoker.)
        Nurses in Hungary don't have adequate training--high-school-level
training is what most of them get. There are about 20 specialized high
schools (sanitary vocational schools--as the Statistical Yearbook calls
them) graduating about 1,500 students a year. These are obviously not nurses
in the sense we think of nurses. More like nurses-aids. Thus, most of the
so-called nurses do not much more than changing bed pans. Anything more
serious has to be done by the doctor, including drawing blood. (A young
relative of mine on her rotation did nothing else in "internal medicine" but
draw blood. I am not terribly sure that this is the proper way  of training
young physicians.)
        Then comes the problem of ambulances. They don't have enough and
although they have 148 hospitals (for a country of barely 10 million) most
of the hospitals can't really handle more complicated surgery. Thus, it can
happen that the ambulance takes the patience to Hospital X only to be turned
away after a quick examination because Hospital X can't handle the case.
Just recently there was a case where a young Hungarian from Romania was
dragged this way from hospital to hospital because someone shot a dart into
her throat (however bizarre that sounds but that's what happened) and only
the third or fourth hospital was ready to handle her case. (It is altogether
another matter why the ambulence driver didn't know which hospital handles
what.) And yes, there are the 148 hospitals with more than enough beds.
There are 96 beds for 10,000 inhabitants. Really high number: in the United
States the same number is 183, in England it is 126 and in Switzerland it is
179. However, most of these beds are not occupied by people who actually
need them but elderly patients who should be in nursing homes. Their
children have "connection" and they manage to bribe the doctors to keep
"mama" or "papa" in the hospital indefinitely. Meanwhile, when a patient
arrives with legitimate complaints they are often turned away. One example,
close to home. I had a much older first cousin who about a year ago died of
a heart attack. She and her family visited the theater Sunday night and Iren
wasn't feeling well. Off they drove to the hospital, where they had a hell
of time to gain admission. Only the fact that her daughter-in-law was a
doctor at the same hospital managed to convince the doctors on duty to admit
my cousin. She was in the early stages of a massive heart attack. She died a
day later in the hospital. Of course, it is very possible that she would
have died anyway but when the doctors on duty are admitting her only
reluctantly there is suspicion that perhaps they weren't quite prepared for
the massive heart attack which followed. And when they woke up, it was too
late. That is my suspicion.
        Then comes the question of cancer patients. Ask anyone in Hungary
and he/she will tell you that in most cases the doctors don't even bother to
tell the patient that he/she has cancer. (I guess Hungarian doctors think
that it is too much of a shock!!!) But, how can you treat cancer effectively
if you don't do what is being done in most country in cancer cases:
chemotherapy and radiation, to mention the two most obvious ones.
        These are just a few of the problems and I am sure that one could
add more. In any case, I think it is a simplification to chuck up everything
to stress and diet. We have enough stress in this country too. More and more
people are using oil instead of butter or lard. And even alcohol and tobacco
consumption is decreasing. But you can't just say that the health care is
absolutely free of blame. There has been very little attempt, by the way, to
educate people about health matters. Often the doctors themselves are
surprisingly ignorant. One doctor on the Internet a couple of years ago
expounded on his theory that homosexuality is like smoking you get hooked on
it and then it is difficult to quit!!!

>   I accept that some older Hungarians have still more confidence in North
>American health care systems. I know others, however, who returned to the
>old country and are satisfied with the care there, or they do not give it
>high priority.

        Well, you know, I am not fussy but the decrepit Hungarian hospitals
somehow don't inspire much confidence in me. Or the fact that only about 200
cataract operations are being performed today in the whole country and the
rest of the older folks with cataracts can wonder around half blind, or that
very few bypass surgery is being done and you have to have "connections" to
have one.

        Otherwise, everything is peachy pie.

        Eva

At 05:24 PM 3/10/97 -0500, Jeliko wrote:

>I am surprised that people are happy with something that they do not how much
>is costing them.

        It is an amazing thing, isn't it. There are actually educated people
who think that "they pay nothing" for health care. Others seem to have only
a vague notion and they all think that it is cheaper than the American. When
it turns out to be a higher percentage of the Canadian GDP than American
health care of the American GDP.
        You see this is what happens when you are not directly responsible
for certain services you receive.

        Eva Balogh

At 04:00 PM 3/10/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Andy Kozma writes:
>>>
>>>What else could you expect from him?Remeber Angyalfold?
>>I just do not understand with his backround how the heck he can be a Dole
>>supporter,and at the same time write about the Clinton's close to slanderous
>>remarks.I might even send his notes to them.
>
>Andy, Clinton may actually appreciate if you send the remarks to him. Lately
>he is not getting many complimentary comments, although you may get a
>request for contributions. (-:
>
>Regards,Jeliko
>
>Jeliko:shouldn't I rather send contribution to the Repuclicans?Or Mr Gingrich?
 Why do they foght each other,instead of running th US?
Andy.

Sharon,

They re-elected former communists for the simple reason that they
thought things would get better under their rule. They were had,
probably. The changes from a centrally controlled to a free market
economy proved and continue to prove hard. And it is hard for those of
us who live here to see all this with any definite clarity. There
are many different points of view on why the people of some countries
in Eastern Europe voted for former communists. But one thing is clear,
they thought it would be a good idea. In Hungary the people were
promised a better deal, a more reasonable change-over from the
former to the new way of life. We all hope, I hope, that they will
improve things in time. Right now many are struggling to make
ends meet. And anyone who doesn't sympathize with their plight is
pretty heartless, in my humble opinion.

Best regards,
Steve

You're wrong, stress and anxiety is much higher under the recent
political system (in Hungary). Udv: Tokodi Gyorgy

----------
Feladó: Stephen L. Szabolcsy >
Címzett: Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY >
Tárgy: Health care systems
Dátum: 1997. március 10. 17.10

           Dear Readers:
   Eva S. Balogh thought that (a) $32/month/person was incredibly low for
health insurance in British Columbia; Also that (b) the Hungarian health
care system must be lousy, looking at the current cost and mortality.
   My comments:
 (a): The walls of the entry hall in the local hospital are covered with
copper  plaques: Mr. X donated this, Mrs. Y donated that, etc.
      Each year I receive my house tax papers from city hall, containing the
assessment value of my property, how much I have to pay for it (less if it
is my principal residence, and even less if I passed age 65). It also lists,
what per-
centage of my tax payment goes for what, including hospital costs. I
calculated, that about $50/per year of my municipal taxes goes to hospitals.
     Doctors and nurses are paid from provincial taxes.
     When I buy a bottle of rum from the Provincial Liqueur Store, about 60%
of the price is provincial tax. About 80% of the cigarette price is
provincial tax.
Then there is provincial sales tax (7% added to the price, plus the General
Services Tax, on all manufactured items). Usually, when there is a deficit,
the government then in power increases the "Sin Tax" (tax on tobacco,
alcohol, etc.)
     The provinces have jurisdiction over their natural resources. This
means revenues in the form of royalties for mineral claims, stompage fees
from loggers, and so on.
     Further, as you may have noticed from others' comments, the federal
government returns some of the taxes to the provinces. They call these
"transfer payments". It is a tool to keep the provinces in line, when they
try to mess with the health care or other systems.
    So, it is not easy to figure out, how much Canadians pay for their
health care system. It changes from province to province and city to city,
varies with occupation, property ownership, etc., etc. The overhelming
majority would not want to change it.
   Employers, usually offer fringe benefits to their employees, that may includ
e
"extended care benefits" through private insurance companies, such as single
room when hospitalized, drug discount, etc., but the basic health care costs
are provided uniformly to everyone by provincial "medical service plans"
paid for by employers or by the self employed.

(b) About Hungary:
   My niece, who is a doctor in Kaposvar, Hungary, has visited us last year.
My neighbor, who is on the local hospital board, has arranged a whole day visit
for her. I went along. A Canadian doctor guided us through everything, from ad-
mission to brain scanning. They could not show her anything new that did not
already exists in Kaposvar.
   I think, the Hungarian health care system could be superior to the North
American one, still the mortality rate would stay high for years to come,
because of the Hungarian diet, lack of consideration given to preventive
medicine (i.e. consumptions of coffee, tobacco, alcohol, drugs, etc.),
stress and anxiety under the former political system and now due to job
insecurity, and probably for many more reasons.
   I accept that some older Hungarians have still more confidence in North
American health care systems. I know others, however, who returned to the
old country and are satisfied with the care there, or they do not give it
high priority.
   I don't think these aspects can be generalized.
   I have lived many years in developing and underdeveloped countries, where
health care was not my primary concern.

                                     Istvan L. Szabolcsy