In article >,
Wally Keeler > wrote:
>
>: Gee, Wally, now this one was REALLY poetic stuff!!!
>: Joe
>
>Gee Joe, I thought you could recognize a stanza from a paragraph. The 
>principle that I follow is that when garbage is thrown at me, I throw it 
>back, preferably twice as much as was thrown at me. Get it? 2+2=8.
>-- 
I realized only upon reading my posted remark that it could be
interpreted as a criticism of you.  Sure enough, that's how you took it,
Wally.  Actually, I kinda' liked your spirited counterarguments.
Heck, I could even appreciate attacks on me when they are done with such
skillful use of the language.  The only thing I frown upon is vulgarity.

Come to think of it, some of the Romanian attacks on me were in that
category.  (Now this last sentence can also be interpreted two ways, but
I let you guys figure it out for yourself.) 

Joe

In article >,  (Dan Pop) writes:
|> In > "Zoli Fekete, keeper of h
ungarian-faq" > writes:
|> 
|> >'what goes around, comes around'. Which is not to say that 
|> >occasional bad experience of Romanian speakers in areas almost 
|> >exclusively populated by Hungarians is either commensurable to or 
|> >justification for the anti-Hungarian measures by the state...
|> 
|> Again: what are those "anti-Hungarian measures" taken by the Romanian
|> state?

Again: everything that tries to abolish the education in Hungarian language.
Since SCHOOLS (not simply education) are the root of a culture as, well as its
best preservers, abolishing them and/or preventing their foundation,
are directly against the cultural/national/... identity of the Hungarian
community/minority/what ever you or anyone calls it in romania.

|> 
|> Dan
|> --
|> Dan Pop
|> CERN, CN Division
|> Email:  
|> Mail:  CERN - PPE, Bat. 31 R-004, CH-1211 Geneve 23, Switzerland

Matyas
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
To find out more about the anon service, send mail to .
If you reply to this message, your message WILL be *automatically* anonymized
and you are allocated an anon id. Read the help file to prevent this.
Please report any problems, inappropriate use etc. to .

The Hungarian language's uniqueness is derived from its non-Indo 
European roots.  For over a thousand years the language has evolved, but 
how has it survived in such an lingual-isolationist environment?  Most 
languages in Europe are "genetically rooted" (with the exception of 
Finnish, Basque and some other minor languages).  I assume that its the 
Hungarian nature to preserve their language through cultural traditions, 
which I believe are not flourishing (at least when I was there) except to 
appease tourists.  But now, with the advent of English computer jargon 
etc., the Hungarian language is beginning to subsume more foreign lexicon 
in ways not unlike the German influence during the Austro-Hungarian 
empire.  All languages change continously, but what kind of impact does 
Indo-European languages have on an isolated non-Indo E. language such as 
Hungarian, especially since Hungary has ostensibly opened up?  I'm 
constructing an analytical paper on Hungarian and how political and 
social issues are affecting the language.  Any response would be well 
appreciated.

Koszonom,  Nikolaj Nielsen

Hermes ) wrote:
:  On 9 Jun 1995, 02 wrote:
: >  Wally, I think you're to explain to rain forest people what a 
: >  cool place is Antartica... :-) 
: >  Miklos Prisznyak

: That's right, you hit the nail on the head, Priszy gyerek,
:                                             Feye kerek
:                                             Ora lapos
:                                             Saya szaros,
: a little cultural sensitivity wouldn't hurt, a little anthropological
: avareness in his dealings with the 'natives' would go a long way !
: m. cristian

What sensitivity? Why should I be any more sensitive to you than the 
sensitivity you have shown towards the Roma or Magyars? As I understand 
it, Magyars, Rom and Romanians born within the borders of Romania are all 
natives to Romania. 
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

In article >  (J
anos Szamosfalvi) writes:
>CLARY Olivier ) wrote:
>: [...] those very wide groupings of native American language families
>: are based on too few words [...] probably the former groupings based
>: on blood etc helped to select this "interesting" result, [...]
>No.  The study of their languages was independent and preceeded the blood 
>and DNA type testing.

About this, too, let's ask sci.lang ! (previously: v-like sound for water)

Thanks in advance to sci.lang readers who answer our questions. If you do
not like cross-posts, leave only sci.lang on the Newsgroups line and I will
summarize for the other group.

-- Olivier

"Amerikas magyarokat" keresek, akik megfelelnek az alabbi kivanalmak: 

	a) permanent US rezidensek/allampolgarok; 
	b) ketnyelvuek, tehat magyarul sem felejtettek el meg; c) van 
tapasztalatuk onkormanyzatokkal/allamigazgatassal/biznisszel kapcsolatban
es  a terulet erdeklodesi korukbe esik; 
	c) esetleg tanarkodnak barmilyen bazison; es 
	d) az USA kormany igen jo penzen kedvuk van harom evet a projekten
Magyarorszagon eltolteni, es hajlandosagot ereznek tudasukat es
tapasztalataikat az alabbi modon egy ideig a haza szolgalataba allitani. 

>A projekt egy technical es training assistance program magyar
onkormanyzatok reszere az alabbi teruleteken: 

>1. eroforras/minoseg fejleszto technikai segitseg onkormanyzatoknak; 
2. allampolgari reszvetel es tudatossag-fejlesztesi segitseg az
onkormanyzati mukodessel kapcsolatban; 
3. helyi kozigazgatasi oktatast (ki)fejleszto - segito segitseg; 
4. helykozi/kistersegi kapcsolatokat fejleszto segitseg; 
5. segiteseg az onkormanyzati szovetsegeknek ahhoz, hogy jobban tudjak a
tagok erdekeit kepviselni es reszukre szolgaltatasokat nyujtani; 6. rovid
ideju technikai segitseg a nemzeti kormanynak helyi onkormanyzatokkal
kapcsolatos kerdesekben. 

>Amire legkesobb jovo keddig szukseg lenne harom vagy negy erdeklodotol
az 

		a) rezume; amerikai stilusu (magyar es angol, angol mindenkeppen) 
		b) letter of commitment (1 oldal)
		c) salary history (1 oldal)

A negy magyar szarmazasu assistant egyutt fog dolgozni otthoni reszt vevo
magyarokkal, valoszinuleg egy-ket egyetemmel es termeszetesen az
onkormanyzatokkal. A kotelezettsegvallalasi level, nevevel ellentetben,
jogilag semmire sem kotelez, a hataridore kell a csoportnak felmutatnia a
negy professzionalistat, hogy a bidben reszt vehessen. A proposal a
Lyndon Baines Johnson School of Public Administration, University of
Texas at Austin-tol indul. Az intezmeny egy konzorcium resztvevoje,
amelyet a KPMG Peat Marwick vezet. 

>A projektet a USAID inditotta. A palyazat zart, csak nehany konzorciumra
korlatozodik, koztuk a mienkre is. A programtervezetet (angolul van)
szivesen elfaxolom mindenkinek, aki szemelyesen erdeklodik nalam
(telefonon vagy e-mailben) es megadja a faxszamat. Kapcsolatba lehet
lepni velem, ) (512-469-9539 home) es rajtam
keresztul David Eatonnal az LBJ Schoolbol, aki a csoportot vezeti. Surgos
valaszra van szukseg, mivel a proposal leadasanak hatarideje junius 30-a,
tehat kb 10 nap all rendelkezesre. Barki erdeklodot nagy orommel veszek! 

>Koszi a segitseget elore is!

>Krisztian

Aquatine ) wrote:
: "What can we do against such a brainwashed hateful organization? Our land
: needs peace, their kids need education. But PKK kills teachers..."

: The Turks can get out of Cyprus.

: The Turks can apologise to the Armenians.

: The Turks can appologise for their complicency in the attempted genocide
: of Jews.

: Let's face it...it is real hard to feel any sympathy for the Turks. 

Aquatine,

First I thought your posting went somewhat astray in the USENET hierarchy.
Then I took a closer look at the header of your mail and had to find out 
that it contains crossposting entries to at least 15 if not more newsgroups.

Please refrain from abusing other people's areas with unqualified statements
completely unrelated to our (in this case: Mongolian) newsgroup.

O. Corff.

--
Dr. Oliver Corff              e-mail:    
Heinrich-Roller-Str. 26       telephone:   ++ 49 - 30 - 312 34 54
10405 Berlin  GERMANY

My boyfriend's father is seriously ill and has always wondered about
the possibility of locating his long-lost relatives in Hungary/Romania.
His surname is Miklosy, first name is Laszlo, and the family is from
the Timisoara area. Any information would be sincerely appreciated.
Please reply directly by e-mail. Thank you.

Luciana Messina

I am looking for Alexa Veller whose former
address was:



Alexa Veller
Cullen International
Centre Technologique
Rue du Seminaire 22
B-5000 Namur
Belgium

Please respond,

Attila Horvath
Washington, DC.

> ========================================================================
              AMERICAN ASSOCIATION OF YOUNG HUNGARIANS
                 FIATAL MAGYAROK AMERIKAI EGYESULETE
> ========================================================================


                                Present

		            the 4th Annual

                               AAYH-Open


The AAYH-Open is the most laid back of all AAYH events. Moved each
year to different regions, the AAYH-Open is a weekend excursion of 
camping, swimming, volleyball and workshops. 

Members and guests participate in workshops and group discussions on 
topics ranging from human rights and ethnic identity to career 
development. (At one workshop, for example, participants played an 
intense, exciting game that challenged their abilities to work with 
others; at another, they debated on what their Hungarian ethnic 
background meant to them.) 

When participants are not in workshops, they are taking part in a wide 
variety of physical activities, including an annual volleyball tournament. 
Last but not least is the traditional Saturday night party.


WHEN:   July 14-16, 1995
WHERE:  Magyar Park, PA


COST:   $25 Members
        $35 Non-members/Guests
        $5  Late fee (if not registered by June 30)
        $10 Official AAYH-Open T-shirt (optional)


FOR MORE INFORMATION PLEASE CONTACT:
Gyula I. Varga     908-463-8761     	
Gyula Jay Nadas    312-725-2540     
Edit Demeter       708-965-1285     


-------------------------  CUT HERE  -------------------------


                1995 AAYH-Open Registration Form
                     (One per person please)


[ ] Member
[ ] Non-member/Guest


Name:		_______________________________
Address:	_______________________________
City:		_______________________________
State:		_______________________________
Zip Code:	_______________________________
Telephone:	_______________________________


What time do you plan on arriving?
[ ] Friday Noon-6:00
[ ] Friday 6:01-midnight
[ ] Saturday A.M.
[ ] Saturday P.M.


NOTE: - If registering electronically email to ;
      - Make checks payable to AAYH Chicago Chapter;
      - Mail to: 8638 N. OLCOTT, NILES IL 60714
 
--
AAYH email:		
AAYH WWW:		http://www.jvnc.net/~kerekes/

The Hungarian language's uniqueness is derived from its non-Indo 
European roots.  For over a thousand years the language has evolved, but 
how has it survived in such an lingual-isolationist environment?  Most 
languages in Europe are "genetically rooted" (with the exception of 
Finnish, Basque and some other minor languages).  I assume that its the 
Hungarian nature to preserve their language through cultural traditions, 
which I believe are not flourishing (at least when I was there) except to 
appease tourists.  But now, with the advent of English computer jargon 
etc., the Hungarian language is beginning to subsume more foreign lexicon 
in ways not unlike the German influence during the Austro-Hungarian 
empire.  All languages change continously, but what kind of impact does 
Indo-European languages have on an isolated non-Indo E. language such as 
Hungarian, especially since Hungary has ostensibly opened up?  I'm 
constructing an analytical paper on Hungarian and how political and 
social issues are affecting the language.  Any response would be well 
appreciated.

Koszonom,  Nikolaj Nielsen

The Hungarian language's uniqueness is derived from its non-Indo 
European roots.  For over a thousand years the language has evolved, but 
how has it survived in such an lingual-isolationist environment?  Most 
languages in Europe are "genetically rooted" (with the exception of 
Finnish, Basque and some other minor languages).  I assume that its the 
Hungarian nature to preserve their language through cultural traditions, 
which I believe are not flourishing (at least when I was there) except to 
appease tourists.  But now, with the advent of English computer jargon 
etc., the Hungarian language is beginning to subsume more foreign lexicon 
in ways not unlike the German influence during the Austro-Hungarian 
empire.  All languages change continously, but what kind of impact does 
Indo-European languages have on an isolated non-Indo E. language such as 
Hungarian, especially since Hungary has ostensibly opened up?  I'm 
constructing an analytical paper on Hungarian and how political and 
social issues are affecting the language.  Any response would be well 
appreciated.

Koszonom,  Nikolaj Nielsen

In article >  (J
anos Szamosfalvi) writes:
>I'm not sure whether Japanese is an Altaic language or not, (I think 
>it is) but for example both Korean and Hungarian belong to the Ural-Altaic 
>group.

Even the grouping of Turkic and Mongol languages together into an Altaic group
is not universally accepted, and adding there Korean and Japanese is far more
controversial. The idea of an Uralo-Altaic grouping stems from superficial
analyses from the end of the last century, grammar classification and such,
while now the proofs of a common origin implies much more vocabulary studies.

Hungarian, for instance, has evolved a lot from the grammatical state still
testified by the small Ugrian languages most closely related to it, a state
which resembles much more Turkish (for instance, the possibility of a
subject after the verb, or of a subordinate after the main clause ".., aki/ami"
is unknown in these languages); so if things can evolve so quickly in grammar,
the existing analogies with other points of Turkish grammar may just be due
to "areal" phenomena (like those historically documented between Germanic and
neo-Latin grammar, or diffusion of the French and German "r" sound), and not
due to a common origin.

>To make matter even more interesting, DNA studies has also shown 
>that Hungarians are "closely" related to many asian groups such as the 
>aforementioned Koreans.

I seem to remember this has been discussed once in TIPP as for blood groups
and "Mongolian spot" (in the back of new-born babies), and data given by
specialists showed that in fact, when there is a Western-Eastern tendency,
Hungarians are only very slightly more Eastern-like than their neighbors,
that is, blood mixing has been quite extensive.

-- Olivier

accident, don't mean to take up newsgroup space

 (Wally Keeler) wrote:

>As I understand 
>it, Magyars, Rom and Romanians born within the borders of Romania are all 
>natives to Romania. 

Ok, they are, but BTW, who are the "Native Canadians" you keep talking
about? Unless "native" refers to all people born in Canada, there is
no such thing as "Native Canadian". Keep in mind that what we call
American Indians are in actuality natives of Siberia, so the political
correct term is not "Native Canadian" but "Siberian Canadian or
American". At one point, not too long ago, you even claimed to be an
"ethnic Canadian" ?!?! What the hell is an "ethnic Canadian"?

Now, if you're so confused about your own country, what makes you
think you can have a valid opinion on somebody's else?

	Ex nihilo nihil!
	        [Lucretius - De rerum natura, I, 149]

Dorin Taranul

CYPERSPACE GUIDE TO THE INFORMATION SUPERHIGHWAY 	

ednorman's Cyberspace List...Your guide to the Information Superhighway

of people, places and cultures around the world...with listing of some

        of the best resources on the information superhighway

     A collection of Cultural, Environment, Society and Lifestyle

 Point your browser to: http://www.interport.net/~ednorman/list.html

Szervusz,
From now on, you can take a look at the  list's 
archive from the 
http://www.glue.umd.edu/~gotthard/hungary.html
page, or directly at the
http://www.glue.umd.edu/~gotthard/hungary.txt 
address.
The format is primitive right now, but, we might get better later on.
If you want any of your postings removed from the publicly available 
archive, send a mail to 

mailto:

, and please, refer to it by the

Message-ID:

Thanks to all of you for your contributions,
Minden jot,
Gotthard

--
Hungarian-American list, mailto:  
WWW,                       http://www.glue.umd.edu/~gotthard

AND Books ) wrote:

: : There are a few linguists working on to find the "mother of all 
: : tongues"  (the language that gave birth to all existing languages).
: : I believe it's a moot point because language changes so fast that 
: : everything is almost completely blurred beyond 10,000 or so years.
:                                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: <clip>

: problem: linguistic/psychological studies beyond 4-5,000 years are NOT 
: reliable to ANY analysis... see Julian Jaynes, "Origin of Consciousness"
: re pre-historic language. The "blurr" happens much sooner than 10,000 yrs!

There are basic words in every languages that are more resistant to change
and many recent studies (one about American Indian languages) used this 
fact to categorize Indians.  Their result corresponded very nicely with 
the result of blood type and DNA studies.

T. Kocsis ) wrote:
: In article > Janos Szamosfalvi,
:  writes:
: >Whether Sumer belonged to this group -- it's a very tough question
: >and no one knows the answer.    This Sumer Magyar relationships is 
: >like the Hun Hungarian relationship.

: What I've heard that the Sumer once possibly functioned as an inter-
: ethnic language in middle east between different nations the way
: Suaheli functions in Africa. The traders might've used it and thats
: how the Hungarian tribes could contact with the language *if* that
: time they lived  around there which many scientists strongly 
: dispute.

While this is not an unreasonable scenario, and even assuming that this 
was indeed the case, I don't think Sumer could've had a significant 
influence on Hungarian.   I think it needs a lot more than just traders. 
And historically, Hungarian had been a rather resilient language.
(at least in comparison with the language spoken by the ancestors of 
Romanians  ;-)

CLARY Olivier ) wrote:
: In article >  
(Janos Szamosfalvi) writes:
: >They did, however, came up with words that similar in most languages, 
: >such as the words for water.   Most of them start with the sound [v]
: >and they somehow deduced that the original word was `wede'.

: This is not "most languages" but only Indo-European and Uralic families,
: resp. _*wed-_ (hence Slavic _voda_, Latin _unda_ then French _onde_,
: _abonder_, _inonder_ etc, Greek _hydr-_, Germanic then English _water_,
: _wet_ and _otter_) and _*Bete__ in the reconstructed mother languages, so
: that it is one of the reasons why a very early contact or even a common
: origin might be suspected between the two (a bigger family encompassing
: Hungarian and English!) on a scientific basis, together with other things
: like the persons *m,*t,*s (in Hungarian men -> e'n, te, something reduced
: to o", and also -m, -d, -i and -a/e; in English and French forms like
: my,thy,he->his and mon,ton,son, etc)

: So let us rather say: most European languages.

No.   I saw this in a movie (shown in Ling 200) and they showed a map 
vith the various words of water on the  map.   They were also in Africa, 
SE. Asia, and Australia.    I'll try to ask my prof about the title of 
the movie, if he's still around.

CLARY Olivier ) wrote:

: >To make matter even more interesting, DNA studies has also shown 
: >that Hungarians are "closely" related to many asian groups such as the 
: >aforementioned Koreans.

: I seem to remember this has been discussed once in TIPP as for blood groups
: and "Mongolian spot" (in the back of new-born babies), and data given by
: specialists showed that in fact, when there is a Western-Eastern tendency,
: Hungarians are only very slightly more Eastern-like than their neighbors,
: that is, blood mixing has been quite extensive.

Obviously, blood-mixing made Magyars more like their neighbors, but it's
not only the amount of likeness or difference comnpared to their neighbors
that count, but also the similarities to some very faraway people, and the 
fact that our neighbors are different from those people.

1995 ESVA Denmark 

               1995 European Symposium on 
                 Voluntary Associations


Voluntary Associations and 
Communication Management










Odense
10-15 October, 1995

                    1995 ESVA Denmark
                            
               Voluntary Associations and 
                Communication Management 
                            


The International ESVA Foundation organizes in cooperation with the County of F
unen, Department
of Culture and Adult Education, Denmark, a symposium on the management of commu
nication
by voluntary associations.  


VOLUNTARY ASSOCIATIONS

Voluntary associations are nonprofit organizations established by people who jo
in voluntarily. Such
associations constitute the civil society that links the private and personal w
orld of the individual
to the public arena. They are essential for the quality of both individual and 
collective life.  

Voluntary associations perform a variety of functions. They are often to the fo
re with innovations
which are later adopted by governments; they follow central and local governmen
ts critically and
exert pressure upon these with regard to the performance, expansion or improvem
ent of their
services; they can support particular values; they can encourage the participat
ion of citizens and
support the interests of social, ethnic and other minority groups. Voluntary or
ganizations themselves
can perform certain services for which governments will not or cannot assume re
sponsibility.
Voluntary associations are, furthermore, simultaneously schools and bastions of
 democracy. They
offer people the possibility to participate in self-management, as well as a fr
amework to exchange
information, to educate each other and to form autonomously opinions on politic
al issues. 

Voluntary associations play, furthermore, an important role in public discourse
s on norms, values,
policy options and policies. Generally speaking, they contribute to our ideas a
bout and political
decisions with regard to social problems by creating and diffusing knowledge as
 well as information,
and by stimulating the development of consensus.  

ESVA

The European Symposium on Voluntary Associations (ESVA) is an international net
work of scholars
and others interested in voluntary associations that furthers the exchange of k
nowledge and
information with regard to the voluntary or third sector. It came into being as
 a result of Dutch-
Hungarian cooperation that started years before the collapse of communism. A ma
nifestation of
this cooperation was a Hungarian-Dutch symposium that took place in 1984 in Hun
gary. Since
then bilateral symposia have been held in Hungary and in the Netherlands. The f
irst European
symposium took place in 1989 in Hungary and was followed by symposia in the Net
herlands (1990)
the Soviet Union (1991), Poland (1992), Estonia (1993) and Romania (1994). Prec
eding the
conference in Romania, the tenth anniversary of the ESVA network has been celeb
rated in
Budapest, Hungary. 
ESVA conferences have been attended by participants from Europe, Australia, Can
ada and the
United States. The ESVA was, furthermore, involved in the organization of confe
rences concerning
youth information in the new Europe (the Netherlands, 1991) and ethnic conflict
s and cooperation
(1991 United States, 1992 Russia). 

INTERNATIONAL ESVA FOUNDATION

The International ESVA Foundation (IESVA) is a nonprofit organization under Net
herlands law,
having its secretariat in Hungary and a board consisting of persons from differ
ent countries. It has
been established to sustain the activities of the ESVA, notably by the furtheri
ng of 
*    research and education concerning nonprofit, voluntary and philanthropic a
ssociations, the
     so-called third sector; 
*    the transfer and/or dissemination of knowledge and information concerning 
the third sector;
*    communication and/or cooperation among researchers, scholars, practitioner
s, policymakers
     and others concerning third sector matters.

EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE

During the 1994 ESVA in Romania an Executive Committee has been charged of the 
preparation
of the 1995 ESVA Denmark. It consists of
Dr. J. Katus (Chair, University of Leiden, the Netherlands)
Dr. A. Cancescu (President of AOS, Brasov, Romania)
Dr. J. Dewey (Manchester Metropolitan University, United Kingdom)
Dr. Ch. Groenholm (President of the Society for Culture and Education, Finland)
Mr. K. Habekost (Cultural and Educational Committee, County of Funen, Denmark)
Mr. G. Rogala (Association of Polish Adult Educators)
Mr. B. Stephensen (President of the VOF Romania Foundation, Denmark)
Dr. A. Thomas (Ontario Institute for Studies in Education, Canada)
Mr. J. Toth (Hungarian Folk High School Society, Budapest, Hungary)

CALL FOR PAPERS

The role of voluntary associations in public discourses greatly depends on the 
effectiveness of
their communication with their publics and with the mass media. Compared with g
overnments and
enterprises they are in this respect, however, at a disadvantage as they lack t
he necessary financial
means to buy expertise. This applies especially to smaller voluntary associatio
ns because big ones,
like trade unions, have relatively great material resources to buy expertise an
d to develop effective
communication strategies. Therefore, during the plenary session of the 1994 ESV
A Hungary
Romania one agreed on communication management as central theme of the next con
ference.
So participants of the 1995 ESVA Denmark are invited to present papers (maximum
 10 printed
pages) dealing with communication between voluntary associations and their soci
al environment.
Attention should be paid to, among others, influencing public opinion; lobbying
; ethics; press
relations; methods of consensus mobilization; cases illustrating the creation a
nd diffusion of
knowledge and information with regard to social problems; cooperation with gove
rnment or other
agencies; networking; application of modern communication technology; etc. 

PUBLICATION

A selection of the 1995 ESVA papers will be published. Editors: J. Katus (Leide
n University, The
Netherlands), K. Habekost (Cultural and Educational Committee, County of Funen,
 Denmark) and
J. T˘th (Hungarian Folk High School Society, Budapest, Hungary)

PARTICIPATION

The 1995 ESVA Denmark aims at the exchange of knowledge, information and experi
ence between
scholars and other interested persons from different countries. In the lectures
 the emphasis lies
on communication management but information on the functioning of voluntary ass
ociations in
general is also relevant. Moreover, exchange of experiences, knowledge and info
rmation takes
place in different ways. Therefore, presentation of a paper is not a preconditi
on to participation. 
About sixty participants are expected from different countries in and outside E
urope. Companions
ate welcome, too. However, there will be no separate cultural program for them.
 

PROGRAM

Keynote lectures will be discussed in plenary sessions. Papers of participants 
will be presented
and discussed in workshops. The final program is to be fixed after the receipt 
of the abstracts. 
The provisional program is as follows: 


TUESDAY, 10 OCTOBER
                   Arrival
16.00 - 18.00      Registration
                   Dalum Landbrugskole
                   Odensevej 45
                   5260 Odense S
                   Phone: +45 66 13 21 30
                   Fax: +45 66 13 23 31

20.00              RECEPTION BY FUNEN COUNTY 
                   Opening
                   Mrs. Karen Nohr
                   Mayor of Funen County
              

WEDNESDAY, 11 OCTOBER
08.00 - 09.00      Breakfast
09.00 - 13.00      Visit to Odense
13.00 - 14.00      Lunch
16.00              Tea

16.30              Welcome 
                   
                   VOLUNTARY ASSOCIATIONS AND COMMUNICATION
                   MANAGEMENT
                   Discussion

19.00              Dinner

20.30 - 22.30      Workshops
                   

THURSDAY, 12 OCTOBER
08.00 - 09.00      Breakfast
09.15 - 10.45      VOLUNTARY ASSOCIATIONS AND PUBLIC DISCOURSE
                   1. Voluntary associations in post-communist countries
                   2. Voluntary associations in West-European countries
10.45 - 11.15      Coffee break
11.15 - 12.15      Discussion

12.30 - 13.30      Lunch

15.00 - 17.00      Workshops

17.00 - 19.00      Meeting representants of local voluntary organizations and m
edia: 
                   LOCAL EXPERIENCES WITH COMMUNICATION MANAGEMENT

19.00              Dinner

20.30 - 22.30      Workshops


FRIDAY, 13 OCTOBER
08.00 - 09.00      Breakfast

10.00 - 10.45      VOLUNTARY ASSOCIATIONS AND COMMUNICATION NETWORKS
                   Discussion

10.45 - 11.15      Coffee break

11.15 - 12.00      VOLUNTARY ASSOCIATIONS AND THE LOCAL MEDIA
                   Discussion

12.30 - 13.30      Lunch

14.00              Excursion to Fyns Hoved

19.00              Dinner

20.30 - 22.00      Workshops


SATURDAY, 14 OCTOBER
08.00 - 09.00      Breakfast

09.15 - 10.00      VOLUNTARY ASSOCIATIONS AND THE NEW MEDIA
                   Discussion

10.00 - 10.30      Coffee break

10.30 - 12.30      Workshops

12.30 - 13.30      Lunch

14.00 - 18.00      Workshops

19.00 - 20.00      CLOSING PLENARY SESSION
                   Panel Discussion: Lessons and Prospects
                   Closing 

20.00              Farewell party


SUNDAY, 15 OCTOBER
07.00 - 10.00      Breakfast
08.00              Departure 


LANGUAGE

The conference language is English.

ABSTRACTS

The deadline for the abstract is on 1 July, 1995. 
It should be addressed to the Symposium Secretariat. Abstracts of the papers to
 be submitted
to the 1995 ESVA Denmark must be typed on 1 A4 page, lay out as follows:
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REQUIRED PRESENTATION DEVICE
ABSTRACT

SECRETARIAT

The IESVA Secretariat in Budapest functions as the Secretariat of the 1995 ESVA
 Denmark.
All correspondence concerning registration as well as the abstract should be ad
dressed to:

Mrs. Marta Mihalyfi
IESVA Secretariat
P.O. Box 111
1922 Budapest
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Tel/fax: +361 201 4928
E-mail: 


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CONGRESS VENUE 

The 1995 ESVA Denmark takes place in Dalum Landbrugsskole in Odense. It is situ
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s in a historical
setting. The participants will be accommodated in comfortable single rooms and 
have among others
sauna at their disposal. 

PARTICIPATION FEE

The Board of the International ESVA Foundations strives for the furthering of p
articipation from
post-communist and developing countries. Therefore, the participation fee for a
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participants from these countries is reduced. 
The participation fees, including accommodation, meals and cultural program are
 as follows:
*    Participants from post-communist and third world countries: US $ 75.
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PAYMENT

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rder sent to the
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                      1995 ESVA Denmark
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              Mail or e-mail before 1 September, 1995 to
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E-mail: 

                                   
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In article > Nikolaj Nielsen 
csu.edu> writes:
>[...] the Hungarian language is beginning to subsume more foreign lexicon 
>in ways not unlike the German influence during the Austro-Hungarian 
>empire.  All languages change continously, but what kind of impact does 
>Indo-European languages have on an isolated non-Indo E. language such as 
>Hungarian, especially since Hungary has ostensibly opened up?

I think you have answered the question: the present English influence
does not differ from past German or Latin influences. If you mean specifically
the question of Indo-European (IE) influence on this non-IE language as for
the specific non-IE features (mainly grammar), then the answer is in the
history of Hungarian language: for instance the use of relatives (like ami)
under Latin influence, the development of preverbs under Slavic influence, etc

-- Olivier

If this is not the proper news group for this article, sorry!

re  The Net-World "Yellow" Pages  (a directory for the internet)

Hello,  I'm putting together the net-world "yellow" pages, which is a
directory (like your phone book) where people's e-mail addresses are stored. 
Also there are hundreds of ftp/www/gopher/telnet etc... addresses are
listed.   With subjects ranging from Astronomy to Zambia, all you could ever
want is in one book.  This directory is not yet completed because I do not
have all of your e-mail addresses.  Now, you can not only help contirbute to
this directory, but also be eligible to recieve a FREE copy of the Net-World
Yello Pages.
	Just reply to this message and send me your full e-mail address and
your name.  (Optional are your mailing address and your ph/fax #, though it
would be nice to have the City and the country).  
	If you have a ftp/www/gopher/telnet address then send us it's
address and tell us what type of files are stored there/ what this site
deals with.  If you run a newspaper/magazine/business/service/mailing group
then tell us about it as well.  Please keep all descriptions between 50-100
words.
	This is a great oppertunity for businesses to advertise for FREE.

Strange message, did she walk out on you or did somebody abduct her?
And now she is possibly in the Vancouver area of Canada? Building a boat
(rec.boat.building), selling bicycle parts (rec.bicycles.marketplace),
enjoying the mexican culture over there (soc.culture.mexican), or
something.

ARES CHIANG ) wrote:

: My wife:
[snip]
: She left home since DEC 1994, Now possible in VANCOUVER area of CANADA.
: Do anyone have her information . Please Email me .


Jeaan
--
         (__)        `. ,' Jeaan Bruggeman )      
 `\------(oo)          X    Dept. Biological Systems Engineering   __o  
 * ||    (__)   U    ,'A`.       Virginia Tech, Blacksburg       _`\<,_ 
 * ||w--||     \|/    /_\           VA 24061-0303, USA          (_)/ (_)

Janos Szamosfalvy writes:
> There are a few linguists working on to find the "mother of all 
> tongues"  (the language that gave birth to all existing languages).
> I believe it's a moot point because language changes so fast that 
> everything is almost completely blurred beyond 10,000 or so years.

> They did, however, came up with words that similar in most languages, 
> such as the words for water.   Most of them start with the sound [v]
> and they somehow deduced that the original word was `wede'.

One has to be careful about words identification, in some cases identical 
words may be present in seemingly dissimilar languages.

Just to show an example, *Duna* is a word having a meaning of "water" in 
Sumerian, there are other words for water also in Sumerian(!) (from 
Sumerian English Dictionary being published piecemeal by the Univ of 
Pennsylvania, which is a very interesting book by itself in giving examples 
for the word usage and thereby the problems of that ancient society). 
However, where the word for the river Duna appears to be a word developed
later than any currently known presence of any Sumerian folks along its 
path and the earlier name for the Duna was Ister (although there may have 
been different names given to it at different places along its path.) Also 
the Sumerian meaning appears to be more for "still" water which the Danube 
is not.

Regards,Jeliko

My name is Lisa. I am 1/2 Hungarian. Sajnos, beszelek csak kicsi. In 
1991-1992 I taught English in Szigetszentmiklos at the Gimnazium. I am 
interested in starting a conversation with someone from this area. 
You can send mail to this address. Koszonom szepen.
Viszlat!

 (Adriana C. Bruggeman) wrote:
>
> Strange message, did she walk out on you or did somebody abduct her?
> And now she is possibly in the Vancouver area of Canada? Building a boat
> (rec.boat.building), selling bicycle parts (rec.bicycles.marketplace),
> enjoying the mexican culture over there (soc.culture.mexican), or
> something.
> 
> ARES CHIANG ) wrote:
> 
> : My wife:
> [snip]
> : She left home since DEC 1994, Now possible in VANCOUVER area of CANADA.
> : Do anyone have her information . Please Email me .
> 
> 
> Jeaan
> --
>          (__)        `. ,' Jeaan Bruggeman )      
>  `\------(oo)          X    Dept. Biological Systems Engineering   __o  
>  * ||    (__)   U    ,'A`.       Virginia Tech, Blacksburg       _`\<,_ 
>  * ||w--||     \|/    /_\           VA 24061-0303, USA          (_)/ (_)
The question is : does she left home or does she left a guy ?

>  (Clive) writes:
> 
>>i was wondering if someone could translate this song for me, it's from
>>east's album ja'te'kok (games)... my knowledge of hungarian is
>>limited and i'm having some difficulty... it's entitled
>>messze a felho"kkel (far away with the clouds).  thanks in advance.
> 
>>Messze a felho"kkel
>>-------------------
> 
>>Az e'n felh"oim ba'ra'nyfelho"k
>>Fehe'r lepke tu:ndo:klo"
>>Vigye'l engem a felho"k ko:ze'
>>Ott me'ly a csend e's madarak sza'llnak
> 
>>A'lmok vigyetek, fogja'tok meg ke't kezem
>>Adjatok nekem sza'rnyakat, had repu:ljek
>>Messze a felho"kkel
> 
>>Felho"k ko:zt fent, e'g s fo:ld ko:zo:tt
>>Lepke ha'ta'n sze'du:lten sza'llok
>>Megige'z a fe'ny, mely arcomhoz e'r
>>Vibra'lo ke'k a va'llamon ta'ncol
> 
>>A'lmok vigyetek, fogyja'tok meg ke't kezem
>>Adjatok nekem sza'rnyakat, had repu:ljek
>>Messze a felho"kkel
>
>>i have a sketchy idea of what it's about, but would appreciate
>>a good translation.. :)
>>clive mccaig

  Translation:

Far with the clouds.
-------------------

My clouds are all fleecy
Brilliant white butterfly
Take me to the clouds
Where silence is deep and the birds are flying.

Dreams, take me, hold my hands
Give me wings so I can fly
Far with the clouds.

Far above among the clouds, between Heaven and Earth
Dizzy from flying carried by a butterfly
Bewitched by the light touching my face
Vibrant blue dances on my shoulder

Take me, dreams, hold my hand
Give me wings so I can fly
Far with the clouds.


  R. Lantos

* 1:30 PM  06/18/95 SUNDAY		HUNGARIAN LANGUAGE CATHOLIC MASS
****************************************
Magyar Nyelvu Katolikus Mise:
3rd Sunday of the month, from 1:30 pm at

ST Dominick Church           

630 E Street, SW
Washington DC,
(between 6th and 7th streets NW)

--
Hungarian-American list, mailto:  
WWW,                       http://www.glue.umd.edu/~gotthard

In article >  (J
anos Szamosfalvi) writes:
>There are basic words in every languages that are more resistant to change
>and many recent studies (one about American Indian languages) used this 
>fact to categorize Indians.  Their result corresponded very nicely with 
>the result of blood type and DNA studies.   

The problem with this is that even these words cannot be used to go back
very far (say, after 5000 years), and those very wide groupings of native
American language families are based on too few words to be statistically
significant, so probably the former groupings based on blood etc helped to
select this "interesting" result, when totally different results would have
been just as significant. See what Jacques Guy sometimes writes on sci.lang
about the use of statistics in his field.
-- Olivier

In article > Janos Szamosfalvi,
 writes:
>And historically, Hungarian had been a rather resilient language.

resilient ?? Resistant, maybe.. It is known to change slower
than indoeuropian languages which are more sentence-centered
than our language.

Tamás

Hmm.  I'm sure there's more to this than meets the eye.
Have you tried contacting the police in your area to file a
missing person's report?

Lola

In article >, ARES CHIANG 
.com> writes:
|> 
|> My wife:
|> Name: Sylvia KIM (KIM Eun Jung)
|> Nationality: Korea
|> Passport No: 3063614
|> Age: 26
|> Date of birth: 18 APRIL 1969
|> Weight : 58
|> Height:175cm
|> 
|> She left home since DEC 1994, Now possible in VANCOUVER area of CANADA.
|> Do anyone have her information . Please Email me .
|> For the one who really want to help. More details will send, please left Ema
il 
|> address to
|> me.
|> 
|> Thanks for read this post.
|> 
|> ARES CHIANG
|>

CLARY Olivier ) wrote:
: In article >  
(Janos Szamosfalvi) writes:
: >There are basic words in every languages that are more resistant to change
: >and many recent studies (one about American Indian languages) used this 
: >fact to categorize Indians.  Their result corresponded very nicely with 
: >the result of blood type and DNA studies.   

: The problem with this is that even these words cannot be used to go back
: very far (say, after 5000 years), and those very wide groupings of native
: American language families are based on too few words to be statistically
: significant,  so probably the former groupings based on blood etc helped to
: select this "interesting" result, when totally different results would have
: been just as significant. See what Jacques Guy sometimes writes on sci.lang
: about the use of statistics in his field.

No.  The study of their languages was independent and preceeded the blood 
and DNA type testing.

Olivier Clary writes:


> those close to Hungarian). And anyway this looks more like a legend: what
> writing? can we decipher it and really know some character means both a 
fish
> and to hear? or is it just a character that vaguely resembles a fish but
> might be a deformation of something else?

See Kramer's discussion of the word and symbol. He certainly cannot be 
called a Hungarian who sees Sumerian everywhere. The symbol indicated by 
him is very clearly a fish and his discussion on the development from 
Hieroglyphic to similar "sounding" terms is rather interesting. As far as I 
know he was "the" expert on Sumerian.

Regards, Jeliko.

JELIKO ) wrote:

: > They did, however, came up with words that similar in most languages, 
: > such as the words for water.   Most of them start with the sound [v]
: > and they somehow deduced that the original word was `wede'.

: One has to be careful about words identification, in some cases identical 
: words may be present in seemingly dissimilar languages.

Of course, given a set of nonrecursive rules and a finite alphabet there's 
a finite number of possible words; and as an example, both English and 
Magyar have the words 'ember' and 'most'.   But with water, the words were
only similar, and given the more or less known, or assuned or suspected  
changes on that particular languages, they could successfully trace them 
back.

In article >  (Ken Bacso) writes:
>He probably won't 
>have time to check his mail all the time but it would be nice for him to get 
>around 5 messages a week on Hungary.

If he wants news, I would suggest to send a mail to  and
, the first one is published once a week and the second one
two to three times a week. This is one-way (he cannot write), but he will
also get the big "help" file in Hungarian that tells all about many other
discussion lists (most with about 500 to 1000 lines sent every day in
digest form, so choose well!)
-- Olivier

T. Kocsis ) wrote:
: In article > Janos Szamosfalvi,
:  writes:
: >And historically, Hungarian had been a rather resilient language.

: resilient ?? Resistant, maybe.. It is known to change slower
: than indoeuropian languages which are more sentence-centered
                                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
please explain this term....

in Chomsky type linguistics i always think that a sentence is created from 
a Noun Phrase + Verb Phrase, like: "John and Mary (NP) + went to the store 
(VP)" BOTH are needed to make a sentence... how can ANY language be more or
less "sentence-centered"?

: than our language.
       ^^^
mint Janos e's Juliska va'sa'rolni mentek: Ja'nos e's Juliska a ne'vszavak
e's va'sa'rolni mentek az ige re'sz.

hogy lehet egy nyelv to:bbe' vagy kevesebbe' "mondat koze'ppontbanle'vo"?

sze'p magyara'zat a nyelvek ku:lo:mbse'geze'sro:l...  de nem e'rtem!

ja'nos

: Tamás

This is in response to posting by Mr Iordache.

First of all the area described in the Tales (Povest): It is imprtant to 
look at the known sources used by the writers of the Tales, Georgius 
Continuatus or Symeon the Logothete, who probably finished Georgius 
Hamartolus' work for the dates after 842, Nikephorus' Chronograph, and the 
Pannonian Life of Methodius. It is also fairly evident from the text that 
for dates prior to 943, it is following Byzantine texts (or their Slavic 
translations) and it is not "independent" information. However even the 
extracted information at times is known to be incorrect, (dates,locations, 
etc.) Looking at these may assist in trying to place some of the text in 
context. As an example it is accepted that Methodius was in contact with 
Kotsel in western Pannonia but did not participtae in subsequent missonary 
activity in Bulgaria, even though the Tales state that. Thus there is a 
"combination" of areas in the Tales for later Hungarian and Bulgarian 
occupied territories of previous Slav areas. As far as the Byzantines were 
concerned, for that time period north of them, the "powers" were -- after 
the demise of the Avars,-- the Bulgarians and the Franks. At the same time 
there were many continuous minor problems with the Slavs all over the area 
from the Moravians to the Balkan area. As far as they were concerned after 
the Avar arrival with their Slavic auxilliaries, the area between the 
Bulgars and the Franks was occupied by Slavs. In the text the Tales writer 
inserted the *Slavs* into Hamartolus' text between "Illyria" and "Lychnitis 
and Adriaca". then following the text "and teritory to the north extending 
as far as the Pontus and including the Danube, the Dniester, and the 
Carpathian Mountains, which are called Hungarian, and thence even to the 
Dnieper" (page 52) Thus this area clearly does not refer only to the lower 
reaches of the Danube. [ I am told that in this same page the translations 
list *current* names for the French while the original does not, I have a 
facsimile of the Povest on the way to me, which may clear up the whole 
issue. I have not seen or read the original yet, but the "modernization" of 
names is prevalent throughout the Povest translations]. On the same page is 
the text "Over a long period the Slavs settled beside the danube, where the 
Hungarian and Bulgarian lands now lie." All the extant records indicate 
that this was not only on lower Danube, but from the borders of 
Charlemagne's domain to the lower reaches of the Danube, thus including 
lands from current Austria, Pannonia, Serbia and Romania to the Bulgarian 
lands. The Bulgarians ruled Transylvania and the Belgrade (Nandorfehervar)
area and most of current Hungary east of the Danube. The Tales are clear in 
discussing for example the Czechs for this area who have never been on the 
lower Danube. On page 55 the Tales state "Now while the Slavs dwelt along 
the Danube, as we have said, there came from among the Scythians, that is 
from Khazars, a people called Bulgars who settled on the Danube and 
oppressed the Slavs. Afterward came the White Ugrians who inherited the 
Slavic country." It is correct that the Bulgarsdid "oppress" the Slavs only 
on the southeastern part of the Slavs domain, because at this time the the 
western reaches of the Slav lands were in the area of Frank/Avar conflicts.
But thos econflicts did not occur only between the Avars and the Franks, 
because we know that around 804 the Bulgarians lead by Krum defeated the 
Avars in southern Hungary also. Please not that there is no mention in any 
of these sources of Vlachs for these early days. Now comes the previously 
oft quoted part for 888-898 "The Magyars (note modernization of name!) 
passed by Kiev over the hill now called Hungarian, and on arriving at the 
Dnieper, they pitched camp. They were nomads like the Polovcians. Coming 
out of the east, they struggled across the the great mountains (See 
previous quote where the mountains are already referred to as *Hungarian*)
and began to fight against the neighboring Vlakhs and Slavs. For the Slavs 
had settled there first, but the Vlakhs had seized the territory of the 
Slavs. The Magyars subsequently expelled the Vlakhs, took their land, and 
settled among the Slavs, whom they reduced to submission. From that time 
this territory was called Hungarian. The Magyars made war upon the Greeks, 
and seized the Thracian and Macedonian territory as far as Salonika. They 
also attacked the Moravians and the Czechs." Now it is fairly well accepted 
that the areas discussed cover everything from the old lands of the Franks 
to the old lands of the Bulgarians, covering a large area known to have 
been occupied by Slavs at that time, but it is not correct to restrict this 
area to the lower Danube, particularly when it is clearly stated that the 
Vlakhs were "expelled" from the area and to where would they have been 
expelled if the Hungarians took Thrace and Macedonia all the way to 
Salonika, (besides there is no directional information for the 
*expelling*). That area was the specific region where the ancstors of the 
current Romanians are placed by numerous chronicles and other records. Thus 
the only folks who were expelled were the East Franks. Further on on the 
same page the Tales say "There was at that time but one Slavic race 
including the Slavs who settled along the Danube, and were subjugated by 
the Magyars, as well as the Moravians, the Czechs, thge Lyakhs...." Now 
none of these folks lived on the lower Danube thus the Tales could not be 
discussing what is current Romania. Further on page 63 "Prince Kotsel 
appointed Methodius Bishop of Pannonia..." Again not on the lower Danube! 
and "He travelled among the Moravians and the Apostle Paul taught there 
likewise. For in that region is Illyricum, whither Paul first repaired and 
where the Slavs originally lived." This is clearly NOT on the lower Danube 
and in all cases where this "original" Slavic land is placed in the Tales 
is not what is currently Romania, but mainly Pannonia and the Carpathian 
basin. For the year 899-902 "The Emperor Leo incited the Magyars against 
the Bulgarians, so that they attacked and subjugated the whole Bulgarian 
country". Now this is clearly on the lower Danube but there is zero mention 
of Vlakhs even though the ancestors of the current Romanians had to be in 
the area. Based on the whole of the Tales, it is very likely that the 
Vlakhs referred to by the Tales are in fact the East Franks and not the 
ancestors of the modern day Romanians.

I will have a separate posting on the word origins that I am aware of for 
the Vlakh, Vlach, etc. term.

Regards, Jeliko.

In article > T. Kocsis > writes
:
>[Hungarian] is known to change slower
>than indoeuropian languages which are more sentence-centered
>than our language.

How could a language be not sentence-centered? But I think I understand what
you mean: one root with derivation and suffixes in H = one sub.clause in E,
which indeed happens rather frequently. But this does not seem to influence
the speed of evolution: for instance Japanese has borrowed and been influenced
so much that, despite its similar agglutinative structure, it is hard to know
its history. And in the last 500 years, I think Hungarian has changed no less
than English or French: see the Jokai codex as compared to modern language.

-- Olivier

CLARY Olivier ) wrote:
: its history. And in the last 500 years, I think Hungarian has changed no less
: than English or French: see the Jokai codex as compared to modern language.

I don't remember the date of the great vowel shift in English, but 
comparatively, Middle and Old English are more different from Modern 
English than 'Middle' and 'Old' Hungarian from Modern Hungarian, 
methinks.

In several postings reference was made (in relation to TS history) to the 
writings of Anonymus. Lets see some of his writings. I have only a Latin 
version, but it should even less problem to my Romanian readers.

From folio 9. " Sed rogaverunt Almum ducem, ut dimissa terra Galicie, ultra 
silvam Houos versus occidentem in terram Pannonie descenderent, que primo 
Athile regis terra fuisset. Et laudabant eis terram Pannonie ultra modum 
esse bonam. Dicebant enim, quod ibi confluerent nobilissimi aquarum, 
Danubios et Tyscia, et alii nobilissimi fontes bonis oiscibus habudantes. 
Quam terram habitarent Sclavi, Bulgarii et Blachii ac pastores Romanorum. 
Quiq post mortem Athile regis terram Pannonie Romani dicebant Pascua esse, 
eo quod greges eorum in terra Pannonie pascebantur. Et iure terra Pannonie 
pascua Romanorum esse dicebatur, nam et modo Romani pascantur de bonis 
Hungarie. Quid plura?" Now it is clear that the discussion is for Pannonia 
and NOT the lower Danube area. Also the discussion refers to cases occuring 
AFTER the Hun regime in the area. 

As far as the *Pascua Romanorum* is concerned it is first mentioned by Odo 
de Diglio who was part of the second crusade in 1147 as "Terra haec 
(Hungary) in tantum pabulosa est, ut dicantur in ea pabula Julii Caeseris 
exitisse." Even Thomas of Spalatto in 1266 (before Anonymus) wrote "Haec 
regio dicitur antiquitus fuisse pascua Romanorum". These descriptions 
preceede any actions by Trajan and refer to Pannonian/Roman interaction 
which is well described by the Roman histories and have nothing to do with 
TS area or the lower Danube region.

In folio 11: " Dicebant enim eis sic, qud terra illa nimis bona esset, et 
ibi confluerent nobilissimi fontes, quorum nomina hec essent, ut supra 
diximus: Danubius, Tyscia, Wag, Morisius, Crisius, Temus et ceteri, que 
etiam primo fuisset terra Athile regis. Et mortuo illo preoccupassent 
Romani principes terram Pannonie usque ad Danubium, ubi collacavissent 
pastores suos. Terram vero, que iacet inter Thisciam et Danubium 
preoccupavisset sibi Keanus magnus, dux Bulgarie, avus Salani ducis, usque 
ad confinium Ruthenorum et Polonarum, et fecisset ibi habitare Sclavos et 
Bulgaros. Terram vero, que est inter Thisciam et silvam Igfon, que iacet ad 
Erdeuelu, a fluvio Morus usque ad fluvium Zomus, preoccupavisset sisbi dux 
Morout, cuius nepos dictus est ab Hungaris Menumarout, eo quod plures 
habebat amicas, et terram illam habitarent gentes, quoi dicintur Cozar. 
Terram vero, que est a fluvio Mors usque ad castrum Vrscia, preoccupavisset 
quidam dux nomine Glad de Bundyn castro egressus auditorio Cumanorum, ex 
cuius progenie Ohtum fuit natus, quem postea longo post tempore sancti 
regis Stephani, Sunad filius Dobuca, nepos regis, in castro suo iuxta 
Morisium interfecit, eo quod predicto regi rebellis fuit omnibus. Cui etiam 
predictus rex pro bono servitio suo uxorem et castrum Ohtum cum omnibus 
apendiciis suis condonavit, sicut mos bonorum dominorum suos fideles 
remunerare, quod castrum Sunad nuncupatur. Quid ultra?"

Here again there is clear reference to Bulagarians and Slavs who were known 
to be in the area, even the title is Kean (Khan) which not a very Latin 
sounding title. There is reference to Cozars which can be counted as 
Khazars (or some folks from the Khazar alliance) and Glad from Bundyn which 
is Vidin and the Glad battle is suspiciously similar to the internecine 
wars of the Arpad house under Stephen I when Csanad beats Ajtony who was 
allied to the Byzantines and the establishment of Csanad and subsequently 
Bishop Gellert in Marosvar (Csanad). That there were no Cumans in the 
region at that time  does not need to be discussed, it is another placement 
by Anonymus of folks who existed in his time but NOT at the time of the 
history he was writing. (For the Khazar (*Cozar*) wives, see what Ibn 
Fadhlan wrote about the Khazar Khakan, i.e. 15 wives and 60 concubines)

Again there is description of folks who were in fact there at the time and 
others who were there only in Anonymus' time, with a lot of interesting 
inventions, typical of many of the chronicles. His most outstanding 
mistakes are the mixing up of titles and persons, which was carefully 
avoided by and cautioned against by Porphyrogenitus. For this event one has 
to read his story about Gelou which is fact the title of one of the 
Hungarian leaders (Kendeh, Gyula and Horka) It becomes clear when Anonymus 
mentions that his Gelou's daughter Saroltu becomes the mother of Stephen I.
Naturally it could not have happened from a distance of a hundred years.

 It is important to read these chronicles in their entirety and not only 
excerpts mentioning one thing or another to wring some useful information 
from them.

I am not able due, to some travels, to always read the newsgroups, thus I 
am requesting that any comments or answers be posted to me directly also.

Regards,Jeliko.