>This is one Hungarian who is here but for the most part I'm lurking.
>I must say that I really am enjoying the variouse discusions and even
>some of the flames.  One thing that really pisses me off though is the
>posting by the twit who is ashamed to be Hugarian.  I would suggest to
>him that Hungarians have not one damned thing to be ashamed of, in
>fact, Hungarians should be very proud of our past history and
>accomplishments.  I don't think that I'm the most qualified person to
>go into a long doctoral thesis and history lesson about our past, but
>I do know enough to understand that if not for the "Allies" after
>Triaon, Hungary today would be a lot different society.  I will always
>be proud of my Hungarian heritage, even though I'm not a pure blooded
>Magyar ( I'm part Magyar, part Moravian). At any rate enough said.
>Any one else have any comments??
>
Well, well, well!!!!!!

	Finally some Hungarian guys are standing up and admitting 
where they came from.  I am very glad to see that, taking responsibilities
 of a real man.  This is the first time a have written in because I was very im
pressed.
But come on guys you sound like a bunch of snobs.  I myself am a Hungarian.

POWER TO THE HUNGARIANS

Sziasztok sracok !!!!!!!!
Andrea

Charlie Vamossy writes:

>I am sure Bishop Gorazd enjoyed living in the area now known as the
>Hungarian city of Szekesfehervar, because it is a beautiful place.
>Before him, many other men and women lived there, going back to thousands
>of years.

For instance Bishop Maurus, from Nitra, resided on Pannonhalme
and wrote the Legend of Maurus, which was well known throughout
most of Europe, because it was widely copied in the scriptorias
of Benedictine monasteries throughout Europe since the 11th century.
Particularly in the Zobor monastery of St. Hypolitus in Nitra,
Slovakia (the  river Ipel is named after St. Hypolitus)
and also in a 15th century Kodex of Passau, which is presently
in Munich, another in a monastery of the Rouge Cloitre(Rubrae Vallis)
near Brussels, from the late 15th century. Another from the 15th
century is located in Korssendock near Maastrich in Belgium.


Bishop Maurus's Legend of St. Svorad-Andrej and St. Benedict,
(whom John Paul II named as the patron saints of Europe, 
and it was on the day of St. Svorad-Andrej and St. Benedict that 
Slovakia announced sovereignity) since the 15th century onward
belonged amongst the most often published medieval literary histories.
It is included in the collection Legendae Sanctorum regni Hungariae 
(Legends of saints of the kingdom of Hungaria) published in Strassburg
in 1484 and 1486, also published in Venice 1488 and 1512.

In 1511 it was also published in Dlugosz's edition of Polish, Czech,
Hungarian and Slovak legends. In 1572 it was published in Vitae
Sanctorum and a critical edition of the Legend appeared in Antwerp
in 1725, another in Venice in 1748. The Jesuits of Trnava published
it in 1745. Endlicher published it in 1849. R. Holinka published it
in the magazine Bratislava in 1934. Slovak translations of the Legend
of Maurus appeared in the collection Legenda I. (Trnava 1879), by
father V. Sasinka in Slovensky letopis IV (1880) and also from
A. Miskovic in Citanka (pg 19-21) pre V. triedu gymnazii (1948) and
J. Misianik in the Anthologia starsej slovenskej literatury (1964).

>Pozsony IS the Hungarian name for that city simply because that is what
>Hungarians choose to call it.  The fact that it has its origins in latin

Hmm, in Stephen I's time it was called Breslavva-city not Pozsony.
Stephen's coin preserved the name Breslavva-civ(vitas) not Pozsony.
The founder of the kingdom of Hungary coined the name Breslavva-city,
which was later modified to Preslaus-burg and later Press-burg, which
is still used in Austria on occasion to designate Bratislava, which is
not at all that different from the name on Stephen's coin Breslavva-civ.

>should not surprising to anyone as a great many cities were founded by
>the Romans.  The very English name for the English call their capital,
>London, is from the latin Londonium.

Indeed, however the Romans did not establish Hungary, while Stephen I did
and Stephens' coin says Breslavva-civ(vitas) along with Stephen's name.

All disclaimers apply. Not speaking for Ford.

Peter Hakel  > wrote:
>
>  I don't speak Hungarian, so I'm not sure about this. I heard somewhere 
>that the expression "Tot" is/was used to denote all non-Magyar people, 
>not merely Slovaks. Something like the word Gentiles vs. Jews. Is this 
>correct? Thank you.

Peter,
I'm not sure about it, but I also seem to recall what you are saying.
On the other hand, I can imagine also, that to Hungarians, especially
4-500 years ago, all Slavic languages must have sounded alike, and thus
they may have often called somebody a "tot", who was of some other
Slavic group.  On the other hand, the name "Horvath" (with or without
the "h"), meaning "Croat", is just about as common as Toth, which would
suggest that Hungarians knew the difference between the two.  I just
don't know how much different those languages were several hundred years
ago, considering that the differentiation of various Slavic nations was
not as great then as now.  According to one theory at least, today's
Slovak's are to a large extent not descendents of Svatopluh's people,
but Croats who migrated there at around the 13th century.  This theory
is not by a Hungarian, BTW, but from a Slovak.  But I don't necessarily
believe in this theory any more than in others.  Besides, I don't care to
enlist Tony's usual canned articles with it which prove otherwise.

Joe Pannon

 wrote:
> Jorma Kyppo  > wrote:
> >The result was that car did stop and I saw it was filled by six
> >gypsies. The driver opened the window and shouted angrily in
> >Slovak: "What are you doing, are you some Hungarian or what!!?"
> >I was thinking to answer, that no, just a cousin, but then thought
> >that better not. 
> And Slovaks keep saying that most of the Gypsies in Slovakia are
> Hungarian Gypsies, making up much of the half million of Hungarians
> there.  What's wrong with this picture? 

If you are a Slovak and say to a Hungarian, that he is gypsy and
then this Hungarian gets angry and denies that he's no gypsy,
then I just wonder who is racist, you, the Hungarian, nobody
or both?

Jorma Kyppo
Laukaa
Finland

I don't know if You hurt any other hungarians's feelings,I 
doubt it.I'm a hungarian ,living in the states for the past 
18+years,visited a few times,but this last time I was there was 
more depressing to me than ever.The country (whatever is left 
of it) is in shambles.Under the cloak of "democracy" the same 
old communists are running the country,same as 
before.Nevertheless,I'm glad to see You enjoy Hungary,while 
there have a good time,and maybe try to just enjoy Your time 
there,and don't look under the surface,it's too depressing...

Keep Your chin up,

Laci

Chris Bussler ) wrote:
 > I am writing a magazine article about the radio station Radio Free
 > Europe, which were based in Munich, Germany, and now are located in
 > Prague, Czech Republic. Therefore, I would like to talk to (i. e.
 > exchange some mails with) somebody who listened to RFE during the Cold
 > War or still listens to it today. I would be interested in how it
 > influenced you personally and the political environment and society as
 > a whole in Eastern European states.
 > I would be very thankful if somebody could tell me about his
 > experiences,

And I like to know what is it's political task now, after Cold War?
After having heard some of their programs I started to wonder...

Best, Jorma Kypp|
Laukaa
Soomi, Finland

Ma en saa aru.. I thought it's not possible to crosspost in s.c.e?

Charles Vamossy writes:

>>>The real question is simple:  will these two nations, stuck together
>>>within the confines of the Carpathians, learn from their past mistakes
>>>and develop new solutions to their problems, or will they keep clubbing
>>>each other over the head while the Czechs and the Austrians take home the
>>>bacon?  Western Europe is tired of the bickering.  Just read the press...
>>
>>Whereas the Hungarian minority in Slovakia has been afforded schools
>>and opportunities to learn in Hungarian since the 1920's it might be
>>interesting to compare the reciprocal minority language opportunities
>>afforded for the minorities in Hungary. An article, contributed by
>>Jozef Simek, might be the basis for a comparative analysis.
>
>the sad realization that your choice is to keep on clubbing. Go ahead...

No clubbing was expressed or implied, you presented the questioni from
which I quote "will these two nations...learn from their past mistakes.."

>everyone is entitled to their views.  Hopefully, there is in Slovakia a
>group of people who recognize the futility of the hate you espouse.

Charles you have run out of factual arguments and regretably turned to
ad hominem. It seems that wheneven the issue of reciprocity is mentioned
all civility is set aside and the colonial sovinism resurfaces.

So let us reconsider the citation from Ludove noviny, the newspaper
of the Slovak minority in Hungary, which elicited Charles's ad hominem:

"In the interest of the real politics for the nationalities".

"At the present time at least five institutions concern themselves
with the problems of schools for nationalities: the state pedogogic
institute, the state chancellory for school services, the regional
school centers, the department of nationalities within the national
publisher of schooltexts, the nationalities department of the bureau
for nationalities and ethnic organizations of the ministry of culture
and schools, etc.

 The domestic nationalities and ethnic organizations do not even know
who works in these institutions. And in reverse: perhaps not even these
collectives are familiar with the demands of (Hungary's) nationalities.

 In Hungary at the present time not a single school exists which would
instruct in the mother tongue and in more than half of the schools for
the nationalities no form of instruction in the language of the nationality
is secured. In almost 90% of the schools, which are registered as schools
for the nationalities, the mother tongue is taught as a foreign language.
The condition of bilingual instruction, which was instituted on the basis
of the school law represents an enormous step backward in comparison with
Ratio Educationis of Maria Theresa from the year 1777, which decreed that
in bilingual schools the teachers must be able to communicate also
in the language of the minority."

Ludove noviny, 22.11. 1995 as reprinted in Praca, 23. XI. 1995

All disclaimers apply. Not speaking for Ford.

"eur.co" > wrote:

>I couldn't agree with You more.I have been living in the US for 
>the past 18+ years,and  I have found nothing but 
>distortions,lies,lack of knowledge,or worse about Hungary.It's 
>almost as if someone or some certain people are doing this to 
>us.

Ha, ha, ha! Told you, we Romanians and Magyars is brothers, all the
way down to the world conspiracy against us!

>At any rate,it's strange You should bring up Japan as a 
>bloodrelative to us.I lived there for 10 months,and I felt a 
>bond which I never felt toward any other nation.It was many 
>times shocking to me,how a land so far could be as close in so 
>many things to us as the Japanese.

I am sure you feel the same bond when you visit the Indian
reservations of North America. After all the American Indians are part
of the Mongol race too, just like the Japanese and, of course, the
Magyars. Hence, you should demand the world to recognize the ancestral
rights of the Magyars over North America, from Alaska to Tierra del
Fuego! And don't forget Oceania: the Polynesians, too, have quite a
bit of Magyar blood in their veins.

>They [Romanians] are full of hate and lies toward us,since 
>they know they really have no culture or tradition to speak 
>of,and they have stolen Erdely by their being turncoats and 
>scheamers as they are,and they want to pretend now that it was 
>always Romania.It makes my stomach turn.

Same thing here, especially when I think how them Aryans, Anglo,
Spanish and Romanian included, have also stolen America from the
feathers wearing branch of the Magyars!

>Keep the faith.Hungary shall unite again,fate demands it!
 
Wow, can you imagine a Hungary from the Pannonian plains to the Rocky
Mountains! Keep the faith! The blood of the Mongols demands it!

Dorin Taranul

On 4 Dec 1995, CHARLES VAMOSSY wrote:

> In a region cursed by violence, hatred, ethnic,racial and religious 
> "cleansing" the potential for war always exists.  The pressure is on the 
> politicians to relieve the built up pressures that could drive those so 
> disaffected that they would resort to violence.
> Charlie Vamossy

However here we have a perverse paradox ! Those 'politicians' that should
be and feel compelled 'to relieve the built up pressures that could drive
those so dissafected that they would resort to violence' instead seem to
have a calling to stir up ethnic hatred and supicion. Their ranks number
Romanian and Hungarian alike. I contend that before this political Pandora's
box was opened there was a relative political and ethnic harmony. No perfect
bliss by any means, but none of todays tensions either.
I also believe that our people in Transylvania have enough common sense and
moderation, that should they be left to their own devices, they would go
about their business and take care of their political and social environment
in an efficient, speedy and fair fashion.
Although I am not religious, I would not hesitate to call Mr. Funar and
Mr. Tokes the very tools of a modern day Devil bend on spreading mischief.

m. cristian

Tony Pace > wrote:
>
>You missed the point, the data as you called it were turkish tax records,
>which provide the wealth of demographic data about the Slovak population
>administered under turkish rule in Hungary proper, in which is recorded

I guess I must have missed it as I was quickly browsing through it.
The news of Turkish tax records is surely something that should have 
grabbed my attention though!

>Amongst these settlements in the Pecs nahija
>were Lipova, Lepsi and Szent Ma1rton, all in the 16th century, and long
>before Joe's predecessors arrived from Trencin in the 18th century :-)

How nice you remember that, Tony!  On the other hand, those earlier
Slovaks -- if indeed that's what they were, and not Croats -- probably
did not survive the Ottoman era in significant numbers, just as the
Hungarians did not.  That makes the 18th century immigrant Slovaks the
dominant type in today's Hungary. 
>
>I would recommend the anthology of Slovak literature from Transylvania
>which has recently been published by a Romanian professor in Romania.

Figures.

Joe

Steven Ede Keller > wrote:
>
>BTW, could you give me the exact title and date of the magazine you
>saw this article in, if you have it available?

Sorry, I don't recall the date of the magazine, but it must have been
some recent issue, I recon.  You might search the HUNGARY list archive
for the post I mentioned.  It was posted there in the last two weeks.

BTW, if the sole reason for selecting Hungary was how far the dollar can
go there, I can think of several other countries which should come
before Hungary.  Romania, for one, for instance.

Joe

Leszek Andrzej Kleczkowski ) wrote:
> Pavel Afanasiev ) wrote:
> : In article >,  says...
> : >What is the point in arithmetically analysing somebody's ethnic 
> : >composition?
> : >Wojtek
> : I'm 1/3 jew.
> How is it possible?

Nice joke indeed, but it is possible if
a) you count enough many generations and get a suitable combination
   (I've a dog, which is 1/3 collie + 6 other races)
b) you come from Mars where they have 3 sexes.

Jorma Kyppo
Laukaa
Finland

In article >, Dan Pop > w
rites:
|>  (Liviu Iordache) writes:
|> 
|> >Dan Pop > wrote:
[...]
|> >>Define "collective rights" in an unambiguous way.  
|> >
|> >No need for that because the 1975 Helsinki  acts defined already,
|> >unambiguous, what  "collective rights" mean: free use of the mother
|> >tongue in the administrative and judicial systems in
|> >minority-inhabited areas, education in mother tongue at all levels,
|> >proportional minority representation at all levels of the
|> >administration.
|> 
|> This is a very ambiguous definition in Romania's case, where there is no
|> large region with a compact minority population.  Is Bucharest a
|> minority-inhabited area?  What happens in areas inhabited by both
|> Romanians and Hungarians?  Where is the owner of a diploma emitted by a
|> minority university allowed to practice his profession?  What are the
|> rights granted to a Romanian who happens to live, permanently or temporarily
|> in a minority-inhabited area?  What guarantees are offered to the Romanians
|> that what happened in the first months of '90, when many Romanians were
|> forced to leave their jobs and homes won't repeat again?  What guarantees
|> are offered to the Romanians that they won't be denied service in shops,
|> hotels and restaurants because they don't speak Hungarian?
|> 
|> Without answering these questions it is very difficult to discuss about the
|> granting of "collective rights" according to the Helsinki definition.
|> 

The first set of questions make no sense.

Concerning the "What guatantees are offered to Romanians..." question: 

1. No Romanians were FORCED to leave their jobs. Those who left did it either
because they were placed there by the ceausescu regime's population policy and
wanted to return home or wherever they originally wanted to live, or because
they knew that they had done things for which they were "afraid" (e.g many 
policemen, party activists), or because they were incompetent and they knew 
that without being backed by the party/government they wouldn't be able to
keet teir positions. What some of them explained about the wromgdoings of
the Hungarians is another issue, one should first look at those who tell those
things. Fact is that many (in fact most of the) Romainans remained in place,
many of them were kept in their positions through the vote of the employees (ev
en
against Hungarian candidates).

2. Denying service to Romanians wasn't and isn't a general practice. I don't
claim that it has never happened, but remember that the most popular resorts
(like Covasna, Tusnad) were visited mostly by Romanians, who kept returning 
there because the quality of service (provided mostly by Hungarian workers). On
the other hand, what guarantees are offered that that I will never be addressed
in a store, on a bus or even on the street in my own town, by a Romanian that
I "should speak Romanian, because I eat Romanian bread"? None, because those
who could give such guarantees (e.g. by laws) feel in a similar way...
[...]
|> 
|> Dan
|> -- 
|> Dan Pop
|> CERN, CN Division
|> Email:  
|> Mail:  CERN - PPE, Bat. 31 R-004, CH-1211 Geneve 23, Switzerland

Matyas
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Hello Csaba,

I couldn't agree with You more.I have been living in the US for 
the past 18+ years,and  I have found nothing but 
distortions,lies,lack of knowledge,or worse about Hungary.It's 
almost as if someone or some certain people are doing this to 
us.At any rate,it's strange You should bring up Japan as a 
bloodrelative to us.I lived there for 10 months,and I felt a 
bond which I never felt toward any other nation.It was many 
times shocking to me,how a land so far could be as close in so 
many things to us as the Japanese.As far as magyars and huns 
go,don't listen to the romanians as how we really are,or where 
we came from,etc.They are full of hate and lies toward us,since 
they know they really have no culture or tradition to speak 
of,and they have stolen Erdely by their being turncoats and 
scheamers as they are,and they want to pretend now that it was 
always Romania.It makes my stomach turn.
Keep the faith.Hungary shall unite again,fate demands it!

Laci

As far as retiring in Hungary for financial reasons, there could be hidden
problems.  For example, the high rate of inflation makes things cost more and
more all the time, and soon restaurants, etc., won't be "cheap".  Also, many
westerners would probably be attracted to areas where other westerners live,
and those areas, restaurants, have higher prices.  My advice to anyone is
look before you leap.
--Shannon Morris

 () writes:

>Sorry, I don't recall the date of the magazine, but it must have been
>some recent issue, I recon.  You might search the HUNGARY list archive
>for the post I mentioned.  It was posted there in the last two weeks.

>BTW, if the sole reason for selecting Hungary was how far the dollar can
>go there, I can think of several other countries which should come
>before Hungary.  Romania, for one, for instance.

>Joe

I believe that the economic situation in Romania in general is worse
than it is in Hungary.

Steve.

T. Kocsis ) wrote:
: In article > ibokor, 
: writes:
: >I agree that in the view of contemporary Hungary (i.e. the Hungary
: >of the period between the woirld wars), Hitler's Germany 
: >was a natural ally, and pursued the poltics and policies which would
: >have had significant support in Hungary, even if to many in Hungary
: >Hitler was going too far.
: 
: After Trianon it was predetermined and evident that Hungary will side
: that power that will examine the Trianon Treaty and the related World
: Order regardless of the other intents of the power.
: 
An odd observation which is a devastating comment on Hungary's
pacific intentions and its paucity of "political nous". It is also
rather interesting that Austria, which had "lost" eversomuch more than
Hungary did not pursue the same path. And, of course, it is interesting
to note that the period between the war saw such friendly relations between
Poland and Germany, who had so much territory in dispute. Such friends
are of course fickle ones. It is also one of the ironies that the very
nations with which Hungary was in territorial dispute became (save
Yugoslavia) allies in WWII.

What makes your excse ring so hollow is that Hungary was neutral in the war
until Operation Barbarossa, which was commenced two years after Hungary
had "regained" its "lost" territory. Moreover, Hitler's plans were that
Hungary remain neutral and stay out of the attack on the USSR. It was
as a consequence of Hungary's importuning that it became part of
the Eastern Front.

And if "territorial integrity" were the principle and overriding motivation,
then it would have been opportune and politic to jump sides as soon after
talingrad and Kursk as possible in an effort to retain the territories.
But no, Hungary stayed with Nazi Germany and Croatia to the bitter end.


: >In that sense, Nazi Germany
: >was the "right horse". But at the end of the race, it was the loser.
: >Hungary again sided with the losers in a major war.
: 
: This argumentation has it serious flaws I think. Basicly this con-
: clusion is drown from an moralizing political  point of view. 

Not at all!! Quite the contrary. As I pointed out in my original posting,
it is not a question of how odious or commendable I (or any other of us!)
find Nazi Germany's politics and policies. Basically, Hungary backed one
of the sides in World War II and it was the losing side. The English
expression "to back a losing horse" means to bet on one which does not win
anything for the gambler.

: In the
: real word it does not matter who sided who *if* at the end some-
: one is on the right side. Horthy and his advisors also comitted the
: error of building their countries long distance political strategy on
: a moral (moreover: wrongly chosen) ground.
: 

I did not seek to analyse why Horthy's Hungary backed the wrong horse.
I was merely pointing to the fact that it did. I am sure there are many
Hungarians who are and were relieved that Hitler's side lost. I am 
equally sure that there are many Hungarians who regret this fact. In that,
Hungary is not alone.

:
: Hungary was (and is ) a small country who could (and should) not
: have and support global political interests further her very own na-
: tional interests.

Of course the same is equally true and equally false of many other
countries. I do not see how "national interests" can be given
unambiguous meaning, especially since short-term and long-term
interests are frequently in conflict. I would venture to guess that
had Hungary stayed neutral, even if favouring Germany, Transylvania,
lower Slovakia and at least part of Voyvodina would have stayed under
Hungarian sovereignty after WWII. The pre-war armed co-operation
with Hitler's Germany would have been "forgiven".
: 
: From strict Hungarian point of view it is not matter who win a
: war of great powers. Only three things are important :
: 
: 1. continuously beeing on and switching to the paying side 
: 
: 2. when status quo is near, beeing on the winners side
: 
: 3. in status quo managing to be on no one's side but suppor-
: ting that side which pays more.
: 
: So, instead of your last sentence:
:   "Hungary again sided with the losers in a major war."
: You should have written:
:   Hungary again was on the losers side at the end of a
: major war.

No, I stand by my statement. Hungary had every opportunity to avoid
the mess.

Moreover I disagree with you on what is a "strictly Hungarian
point of view". For I doubt that there is such. I am sure that
opinion is divided, with strident nationalist nostalgia being
more noticeable today. I believe that Hungary's interests ---
like those of any other nation or country -- are ultimately best
served by peaceful co-existence and dialogue, but settling
disputes though negotiation, even if that takes longer. Otherwise
we sow today the seeds of the next generation's conflagrations.

d.A.

 (Vashek Skutil) wrote:
>       (Vladimir Smirnov) wrote:
>    (D.D. Chukurov) wrote:
>   >>   There are three kinds of people: those who can count and those who can
't.
>   >   There are actually two kinds of people: those who think that there are
>   >two kinds of people, and all others.
>
>   Actually, there are three kinds. People who can count, people who can not, 
and 
>   people who think that there is two kind of people.

   Your thesis can be proven wrong. Suppose there are actually
3 kinds of people. Then, the "people who can not count" and "people who 
think that there is two kind of people" are the same. Therefore,we have
only 2 kinds of people. 
   Now let us assume that there are 2 kinds of people. Then, those who
"think that there is two kind of people" certainly belong to the first
cathegory, and there is no contradiction.

:)

- Smirnov

In article >, 
(Rostyk Lewyckyj) wrote:


> |
> Now probably "byggiar" and 'bugger' in english is just a homonym.
> But maybe some enterprising entymologist will find a connection.
> |
>The English word 'bugger' is related to 'Bulgarian'. At one time people
from this nation were known to have unnatural sexual preferences.

It is quite possible that the name Rus is related to Roslagen and Ruotsi,
but it is an old, and, frankly speaking, boring theory. Here is another:
In Scandinavian languages the word 'rus' means 'intoxication'. Now, in
Russia you often meet intoxicated people.. eh... izvinite pozhalujsta,
poshutil... what is more, it is a country of intoxicating beauty, of
intoxicatingly beautiful women and so on.

More etymology: (serious, this time) I am sorry to say that I haven''t
checked Vasmer's dictionary, but I think 'Slav' is related to 'slovo',
'word. Slavs are people who can speak, compare 'nemec' for German, that
is, a person who cannot speak. All Slavonic tribes could understand each
other, but they could not understand the Germanic tribes. Compare a
parallel connection between 'Deutschland' and 'deutlich'.

AJM

  
> |

Peter Hakel > wrote:

>  I don't speak Hungarian, so I'm not sure about this. I heard somewhere 
>that the expression "Tot" is/was used to denote all non-Magyar people, 
>not merely Slovaks. Something like the word Gentiles vs. Jews. Is this 
>correct? Thank you.
>
>
>Peter Hakel

Peter --

Tot in Hungarian means Slovak.  As a family name, it is usually spelled 
as Toth (for reason I can not readily explain).  "Totul beszelni"  means 
to speak Slovak.  A village near to where I grew up is called "Totfalu" 
(now Tahitotfalu, having merged with Tahi).  It means "Slovak Village".

It never had or does not now have any connotation that describes 
non-Hungarians in gereral.  "Kulfoldi" means foreigner (Kul or kulso 
means outside or outsider, fold means land, hence kulfoldi=from outside 
the land).  "Idegen" meaning stranger, might also be used on occasion.

"Zsidok" and "Keresztenyek" are used to descibe Jews and Christians, 
regardless of their national origin.  Thus, "magyar zsidok" means 
Hungarian Jews. 

Regards,


Charlie Vamossy

Hermes > wrote:
>
>
>On 4 Dec 1995, CHARLES VAMOSSY wrote:
>
>> In a region cursed by violence, hatred, ethnic,racial and religious 
>> "cleansing" the potential for war always exists.  The pressure is on the 
>> politicians to relieve the built up pressures that could drive those so 
>> disaffected that they would resort to violence.
>> Charlie Vamossy
>
>However here we have a perverse paradox ! Those 'politicians' that should
>be and feel compelled 'to relieve the built up pressures that could drive
>those so dissafected that they would resort to violence' instead seem to
>have a calling to stir up ethnic hatred and supicion. Their ranks number
>Romanian and Hungarian alike. 

I quite agree...  While some politicians are trying to find solutions to 
the problems, others are quite content in stirring up passions soley to 
gain political advanyage.

>I contend that before this political Pandora's
>box was opened there was a relative political and ethnic harmony. No perfect
>bliss by any means, but none of todays tensions either.

Again, you are right...  Before the end of the '80's things very very 
quiet.  That's quite common in a maximum security prison.

>I also believe that our people in Transylvania have enough common sense and
>moderation, that should they be left to their own devices, they would go
>about their business and take care of their political and social environment
>in an efficient, speedy and fair fashion.

Amen...  If they were left to their devices, I think Transylvanians 
would once again show the world what a stable, multicultural region could 
be and should be.

>Although I am not religious, I would not hesitate to call Mr. Funar and
>Mr. Tokes the very tools of a modern day Devil bend on spreading mischief.  
>

I don't agree with you with citing Bishop Tokes's name in the same 
context as Mayor Funar.
>m. cristian


Charles Vamossy

In article >,
Igor Chudov > wrote:
|Paul J. Kriha ) wrote:
|*     (Pavel Afanasiev) wrote:
|* >
|* >I'm 1/3 jew.
|* 
|
|It may be a probabilistic thing. The text below should not be construed
|as if I had something against Pavlik's mom. It is just a theoretical 
|speculation on how a person can claim to be 1/3 Jew.
|
|Suppose a woman X was not Jewish, and she slept simultaneously with three 
|men, two of them Jewish, and the third not Jewish.
|
|Them Mm. X delivered a child, and she does not know for sure who really
|was his biological father. Then, the mathematical expectation of
|Jewishness of this child is
|
|                  J = 1/3 * 0.5 + 1/3 * 0.5 + 1/3 * 0 = 1/3
|
|Igor, non-probabilistic 62.5% purebred sovok.
To test a hypothesis let us modify the above experiment as follows
 Suppose that after a several month period of unaccustomed abstinance
 a liberated Jewish miss fornicated in an orgy with three men, two shagitz(im),
 (male counterpart of shiksa), and one fully authenicated 100% jew.
 Suppose that miss J then abstained from fun and games, sufficiently long
 for her pregnant status to be confirmed, and in due time was delivered
 of a daughter. What does the combined wisdom of the net now have to say
 about the jewishness of the lucky baby.
  
  (Oh and since the experiment is purely hypothetical, let us specify:
   Sammy Davis jr., Batu khan, and Serghij Viznuik as the fecund miss J.s
   cavorting playmates)
 --Rostyk

"In article >,  says...
">
" wrote:

">If you are a Slovak and say to a Hungarian, that he is gypsy and
">then this Hungarian gets angry and denies that he's no gypsy,
">then I just wonder who is racist, you, the Hungarian, nobody
">or both?
">
">Jorma Kyppo
">Laukaa
">Finland
"
">

      jorma, next time you come to slovakia (and i hope it will
      be soon), pls get in touch with some gypsies.   they can be
      quite nice (just like most people).   you will notice that
      at least 8 out of 10 are called s~an~o lakatos~ (i am using
      the ~ to indicate the slovak "makcen~"~).   that surely is
      not a slovak name.

In article >,  
says...
>

>So let us reconsider the citation from Ludove noviny, the newspaper
>of the Slovak minority in Hungary, which elicited Charles's ad hominem:
>

">Ludove noviny, 22.11. 1995 as reprinted in Praca, 23. XI. 1995
">
">All disclaimers apply. Not speaking for Ford.


     i would say that the matica slovenska and other slovak
     institutions are to be blamed for this in part.   instead
     of pouring money into the fifth column on the slovak territory,
     they should channel it to slovaks in neighbouring countries.

Joe writes:

>The news of Turkish tax records is surely something that should have
>grabbed my attention though!

I thought that it might.

>>Amongst these settlements in the Pecs nahija
>>were Lipova, Lepsi and Szent Ma1rton, all in the 16th century, and long
>>before Joe's predecessors arrived from Trencin in the 18th century :-)
>
>How nice you remember that, Tony!  On the other hand, those earlier
>Slovaks -- if indeed that's what they were, and not Croats -- probably
>did not survive the Ottoman era in significant numbers, just as the
>Hungarians did not.  That makes the 18th century immigrant Slovaks the
>dominant type in today's Hungary.

It may be difficult to determine the exact proportion of pre-16th century 
to post-16th century Slovaks in Hungary, however we do know that it was 
Maria Theresa's policy to repopulate Slovak settlements in Hungary with
"immigrant" Slovaks as you put it to form a continuus presence, perhaps 
that also explains as to why your predecessors chose to resettle there :-)

however it also puts into perspective why the Slovak minority in Hungary 
would be invoking Maria Theresa's Ratio Educationis of 1777 (the article
in Ludove noviny, 22.11.1995.)   which decreed that in bilingual schools 
the teachers must also be able to communicate in the minority language.

All disclaimers apply. Not speaking for Ford.

George Frajkor > wrote:

>     Gadzik and Simek have the right idea.
>  Too many people are condemning the law
>furiously without having even read it.  Coming from a country that has three
>official language laws (Quebec -- french; New Brunswick, -- french and
>english; Canada -- french and english) I can say Slovakia's law is quite
>intelligently written and useful.  Those who rail about minority rights seem
>not to noticed that the minority legislation is not yet passed.
>

That, I think, is what most people of Hungarian origin object to.  

The Language Laws, which by definition apply to all Slovak citizens, 
including the Hungarian minority, are passed and signed into law.  
Neither the much touted minority language law nor the Bilateral Treaty 
between Hungary and Slovakia, which makes extensive reference to the 
subject, have passsed the Slovak Parliament.  When they do, and are 
adhered to in practice, you will find a great deal more peace and quiet 
on this front.  But as we stand today, Slovakia has one of the most 
restrictive laws on the books.

Regards,


Charlie Vamossy

In article > jenny finkel > writes:
 (Jorma Kypp|) wrote:
>>Leszek Andrzej Kleczkowski ) wrote:
>>> Pavel Afanasiev ) wrote:
>>> : In article >,  says...
>>> : >What is the point in arithmetically analysing somebody's ethnic
>>> : >composition?
>>> : >Wojtek
>>> : I'm 1/3 jew.
>>> How is it possible?
>>
>>Nice joke indeed, but it is possible if
>>a) you count enough many generations and get a suitable combination
>>   (I've a dog, which is 1/3 collie + 6 other races)
>>b) you come from Mars where they have 3 sexes.
>>
>>Jorma Kyppo
>>Laukaa
>>Finland

>>
>
>I'm 100%  Jew and 100%  Merkin.
>I guess that means I'm 200%.  ;-)

2/3 Neanderthalian here.
Hardly anyone can beat my pedigree!:-)
I *AM* from the oldest "race".
Whites, Blacks, Redskins and all other stuff
came much, much later!

Alexander

In article >,
Alexander Goykhman USG  > wrote:
 (Pavel Afanasiev) wrote:
|
|>I'm 1/3 jew.
|
|Just because one may have been conceived in a threesome...
|
No, No 'twas a foursome ...

As I understand from my trips to Russia and Poland,
the root of the slavic words for `German' (niemcy, nemetski) 
means: 

       - dumb
       - incapable of speaking
       - speechless
       - without a tongue


regards,
    Martin (incapable to discuss in Polish or Russian)


-- 
------  looking for a new job ...
 )    | Martin Ott, Physiker + Radioastronom 
 (  - |         http://comma.rhein.de/~mao/
 _ /  | When I walk through nature, nature walks through me !

In article >,  says...
>

>Pozsony IS the Hungarian name for that city simply because that is what 
>Hungarians choose to call it.  The fact that it has its origins in latin 
>should not surprising to anyone as a great many cities were founded by 
>the Romans.  The very English name for the English call their capital, 
>London, is from the latin Londonium.
>
>Charlie Vamossy
   
    i almost agree with you, except that bratislava (to my knowledge)
    was not founded by the romans.

 (Tony Pace) wrote:

>Charles you have run out of factual arguments and regretably turned to
>ad hominem. It seems that wheneven the issue of reciprocity is mentioned
>all civility is set aside and the colonial sovinism resurfaces.
>


I guess I have run out of... whatever.

Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

Charles Vamossy

In article >, eur.co > wrote:
>Mr.Szaszvari,
>I would be very interested to hear indeed,where You get the
>idea that Huns are from (?) and magyars are from (?).Please be
>so kind as to explain and prove Hungarian ancestry.Thank you
>very much.
>
Mondja maga megbolondult, hogy mindent ne'gyszer mond ne'gyszer mond ne'gyszer 
mond ne'gyszer mond?

 (Jorma Kypp|) wrote:

>The Swedish connection with Russia continues: still Ivan the Terrible was an
>ancestor of Rurik!
>And because Romanov family comes from Prussia or Poland, and Stalin was from
>Georgia, it seems that the only real Russian leaders during last 1000 years
>have been Boris Godunov, Lenin(?), and all the guys from Chruchev to today..

There is no such thing as the Pure Russian, because Russia was
on the crossroads not only between nations but even between 
civilizations (Eastern and western).  SO do not look for the 
100% Russian pedigree in between the Russian rulers either.

Godunov for example came from Tatar "murza" (chieftain) origin.
AFAIK his father was genuine Tatar.  From the other hand 
Tsar Pavel (son of Katherine the Grate) although formally had 
both parents of German origin, but AFAIK majority of 
historians believes that the mentally deficient Tsar Peter III was
not his father and thus he and all his Romanoff descendants 
had Russian blood from one of Katherine the Great's lovers.

The "mixed" origin of Lenin is typical for the Volga region rather 
than the exclusion.  Even rural Russian villages were at the same 
point of history (and resent one) the center of the mixing up of 
different tribes.  

CONCLUSION: The closest you can get to the "pure Russian" in the 
position of influence in the Russian state was Grigory Rasputin.



DISCLAIMER: Written above expresses opinions of the fraer only,
and even other fraers would not agree with this.

Tony Pace > wrote:
>
>It may be difficult to determine the exact proportion of pre-16th century 
>to post-16th century Slovaks in Hungary, however we do know that it was 
>Maria Theresa's policy to repopulate Slovak settlements in Hungary with
>"immigrant" Slovaks as you put it to form a continuus presence, perhaps 
>that also explains as to why your predecessors chose to resettle there :-)

Actually, we can hardly speak about repopulation of same settlements,
because in most cases it can easily be verified what ethnics lived at a
given area before the Ottoman era.  In the two villages in the region I
was born, the population used to be Hungarian before the Turks
depopulated them.  Baranya county in So. Hungary (around the city of
Pecs) is more known for its German and Serb/Croation ethnics than
Slovaks.  The largest Slovak settlement in Hungary, Bekescsaba, just
celebrated the 250th anniversary of its settlements by Slovaks.  While I
do know of Slovak settlements originating from that era, I don't know of
any that date from before the 17th century.  Not that they don't exist,
but are not typical inside today's Hungary.

Oh yes, and to clarify something: only half my ancestors came from the
Trencin area.  But I think you knew it, didn't you?
>
>however it also puts into perspective why the Slovak minority in Hungary 
>would be invoking Maria Theresa's Ratio Educationis of 1777 (the article
>in Ludove noviny, 22.11.1995.)   which decreed that in bilingual schools 
>the teachers must also be able to communicate in the minority language.

They were until there was demand for them.  I mean from the locals, not
from Bratislava and the Ford Motor Company.  Islands of ethnic pockets
don't survive very long in this age of mobility and communication.
Not even with "affirmative actions" used by the government in many
instances I know of. 

Joe Pannon

 (Igor GAZDIK) wrote:
>In article >,  says...
>>
>
>>Pozsony IS the Hungarian name for that city simply because that is what 
>>Hungarians choose to call it.  The fact that it has its origins in latin 
>>should not surprising to anyone as a great many cities were founded by 
>>the Romans.  The very English name for the English call their capital, 
>>London, is from the latin Londonium.
>>
>>Charlie Vamossy
>   
>    i almost agree with you, except that bratislava (to my knowledge)
>    was not founded by the romans.
>
>
I didn't know that...  It seems that most modern cities in the region 
were founded by the Romans.

 (Mircea Luca) wrote:

>PC Liviu Iordache reveals his true bigoted self. 

Just because you think it's so, it doesn't make it true. 

>It is not a pretty sight.

I couldn't care less about what you think is pretty or not. Beauty is
in the eye  of the beholder, isn't it?

>Pray tell us,
 
"Us?" Who are you guys, and where did you get the unfortunate idea of
electing M.Luca as your representative?

>Mr. Iordache:  how exactly did Alexander 
>betray his Balkan and/or Byzantine "blood?" 

I already explained it. What part you didn't understand?

>Do you have any other juicy tidbits that you would like to share with us,

"Us?" Who are you guys, and where did you get the unfortunate idea of
electing M.Luca as your representative?

>(*)  Are you a graduate of the "Madame Chiritza Academy for the
>Advanced Study of Foreign Languages: La Furculition" by any chance?

No, but I'm extremely pleased to find out that you are reading so
carefully all my posts. I assume this is so only because you find them
very interesting. Otherwise, I know you will be disappointed, the scr
spell-check position is already occupied.

Liviu Iordache

On 5 Dec 1995  wrote:

> Peter Hakel  > wrote:
> >
> >  I don't speak Hungarian, so I'm not sure about this. I heard somewhere 
> >that the expression "Tot" is/was used to denote all non-Magyar people, 
> >not merely Slovaks. Something like the word Gentiles vs. Jews. Is this 
> >correct? Thank you.
> 
> Peter,
> I'm not sure about it, but I also seem to recall what you are saying.
> On the other hand, I can imagine also, that to Hungarians, especially
> 4-500 years ago, all Slavic languages must have sounded alike, and thus
> they may have often called somebody a "tot", who was of some other
> Slavic group.  On the other hand, the name "Horvath" (with or without
> the "h"), meaning "Croat", is just about as common as Toth, which would
> suggest that Hungarians knew the difference between the two.  I just
> don't know how much different those languages were several hundred years
> ago, considering that the differentiation of various Slavic nations was
> not as great then as now.  According to one theory at least, today's

  I think that only 4-500 years ago the differences between Slavic 
languages were already quite significant.

> Slovak's are to a large extent not descendents of Svatopluh's people,
> but Croats who migrated there at around the 13th century.  This theory
> is not by a Hungarian, BTW, but from a Slovak.  But I don't necessarily
> believe in this theory any more than in others.  Besides, I don't care to
> enlist Tony's usual canned articles with it which prove otherwise.

  That theory is strange indeed. How could a whole nation move from 
Croatia to Slovakia through and/or into territory inhabited by another 
nation? And what happened to "Greater Moravians?"  
  It's a non-sense, IMHO.

  But I heard another theory, it's about the origin of Slovenians. They 
are said to be descendants of the Pannonia Slavs, who inhabitted 
territories around the Balaton. That's where Prince Pribina fled after 
Mojmir expelled him from Nitra. The arrival of Hungarians separated 
today's Slovaks from today's Slovenians, who, eventually became two 
nations instead of former one. This explains almost identical names of 
these two nations. And Slovenians are culturally more Western Slavic 
than Southern (Yugo) Slavic.

  Any comments welcome, as usual.

> Joe Pannon


Peter Hakel

In article >,  (Karl Pollak) wrote
:

>  (Tomas Drgon) wrote:
> 
> >Yes, you are probably right, Karl, but I still think it is a sort of
> >benign form of racism. 
> 
> There is no such thing as "benign racism".  ALL racism is malignant in
> the most repulsive way.
> 

Does it mean that you put someone who uses the "co si madar" saying in one
pot with a ku-klux-clan member? Moreover, being a Hungarian is not a
matter of race.


> >USA is full of Polish jokes and I do not think it
> >influences peoples' behavior towards Poles. 
> 
> Yes, it actually does, and the Polish American Congress (or whatever
> they call themselves) spends a lot of time and effort to root out this
> image of a "dumb Pollack" bestowed on all Poles by these "harmless
> little Polish jokes"

My feeling was, that people actually take those jokes as jokes. But I
might be wrong, moreover I do not know any Pole here.

> 
> >These figures of speech are
> >not real stereotypes, thay are just remnants of old stereotypes. 
> 
> Aaww c'mon Tom, that's just crap.  What difference does it make
> whether it is "real" stereotype or "old" one or a "remnant" of an old
> one?  By lumping people into one group and ascribe them certain
> qualities you are stereotyping them, and it makes no difference
> whether you just started doing it or it is something you picked up
> from your grandfather.

We had this discussion a couple of months ago. People in Slovakia use to
say "rozpravas jak hotentot". Most of them do not know what a Hottentot
is. That's what I mean by remnant of an old stereotype. It has lost the
context by now. 


> 
> >Therefor, I don't mind using the "co si madar"
> >saying, and I do not mind Hungarians using the expression "butatoth".  
> 
> I'm sure you will also not mind being described by other people as a
> racist or being treated as one.  All you are doing is looking for
> excuses to an inexusable behaviour.  I'm quite sure that if I were to
> start telling "harmless 'dumb Slovak' jokes" in here, quite a few
> people would get very upset.  And with good reason.

I am a sort of sad that you react in this way. If you wannt to call me a
racist, do it. I would even agree, with the objection, that my racism is
directed against caucasian (it means my own) race, which makes the whole
insult invalid. 
And concerning the "dumb Slovak jokes", I would not mind, I would even
collect them.

I do not think the problem of racism is as simple as you place it.

TD

-- 
Signature under construction...

Jorma Kypp| > wrote:
>
>If you are a Slovak and say to a Hungarian, that he is gypsy and
>then this Hungarian gets angry and denies that he's no gypsy,
>then I just wonder who is racist, you, the Hungarian, nobody
>or both?

Well, it's obvious, isn't it?  A Hungarian is a racists unless he admits
he is a Gypsie, regardless whether he is or he is not.

Joe

Igor GAZDIK > wrote:
>
>      jorma, next time you come to slovakia (and i hope it will
>      be soon), pls get in touch with some gypsies.   they can be
>      quite nice (just like most people).   you will notice that
>      at least 8 out of 10 are called s~an~o lakatos~ (i am using
>      the ~ to indicate the slovak "makcen~"~).   that surely is
>      not a slovak name.   

What would be so surprising about that?  It would just indicate that
they obtained that name when the current Slovakia was part of the
Hungarian Kingdom.  (I mean their ancestors did.)  Since it was then
Hungary, they picked a Hungarian name, probably based on some ancestor's
occupation.  You don't really think that these Gypsies should have
changed their names just because their villages no longer belong to
Hungary?

Joe

Tony Pace > wrote:
>
> The domestic nationalities and ethnic organizations do not even know
>who works in these institutions. And in reverse: perhaps not even these
>collectives are familiar with the demands of (Hungary's) nationalities.

So how do you know they have the demand for it in the first place?

Joe