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I think this article might be of interest to the readership of
this list. It also addresses some of Eva Balogh's concerns she
expressed on 2 May 96 04:42:59 +0200 under subject
Re: Law on the Protection of Republic (again). Sorry, Eva, had no
time to formulate a reply earlier, hope this gives some elements
of answer.

Roman Kanala

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Path: news.unige.ch!news
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 12:44:54 +0200
From: Roman Kanala >
Subject: Re: contracts law-- slovak style
Message-id: >
Organization: University of Geneva, Switzerland
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On 11 May 96 00:57:13 +0200  (Charles M. Vamossy)
wrote:

>Mr. Frajkor, I appreciate your thoughtful and thought-provoking reply
>and I understand your point.  Sometimes people are, to misquote Winston
>Churchill, separated by common words.

Mr. Vamossy, your indulgence and moderation are honouring you. As you
show in your text below, you have identified Mr. Frajkor's game:

>Still, I think you'll agree that it is rather unusual to wrangle about
>paragraphs and interpretations of international treaties AFTER they
>have been negotiated.  If the Slovak government had a different
>interpretation to EU Recommendation 1201 than Hungary, the parties
>should have resolved that during the negotiation phase and include in
>the treaty language both parties agree with.

Very diplomatically said, indeed.


>Apparently the problems of different interpretations were well known
>from the start.  Nevertheless, after protracted talks, boths sides
>declared themselves satisfied with their work.  Then as I recall, the
>Slovak Government surprisingly tried, at the signing ceremony in Paris,
>to first include and when that was rejected, attach a paragraph to the
>treaty  -- a rather unusual procedure, to say the least.  The French
>Government, who was administering the ceremony, rejected the Slovak
>request, correctly suggesting that if they did not agree with the
>Treaty, they should not sign it but go back and re-negotiate.  Finally,
>the Treaty was signed, but the Slovak Government "paper clipped" their
>paragraph onto their copy.

I think this is a good resume of basic facts. I have chosen to delete
the following comments since the original article is available, but
would like to add the following. Obviously you got confused by the
analogies that might seem to exist between the Slovak model and the
democracies.

In reality, this is not a treaty between the Slovak government and
the Hungarian government. From the Slovak side, it's only one of
these Meciar's one-man's-shows because of two reasons:

1. The puppet character of the Meciar III cabinet.
Already under Meciar II, the ministres had no competences and couldn't
decide anything without a prior Meciar's approval. It lead to some
frictions then. The new government has been composed of people with no
personality and no authority conflict potential. The functioning is
smooth ya, ya, ya.

2. No internal-politic logics behind the treaty. Conflict or
reconciliation are seeminly two possibilities, in reality the are
representing, in a dialectic harmony of opposites, the way of
functioning
of the Slovakian political scene. To express it in more clear terms,
for Meciar, the domestic political situation is a fully controllable
process and there is no need for any justification of any of his steps
aimed at dismantling the democracy. What he needed was a propaganda
theatre destined to the credule Western politicians' eyes. He succeeded.

The Free World has then postponed further warnings regarding the
unpleasant evolution toward a dictature, cutting every possible
President's powers, building an uncontrolled State property distribution
system, Slovak Matrix and Slovak Services as tools of ideological and
political oppression. Meciar has won a six months delay that made his
self-confidence to grow until the President's son kidnapping and
the next warning wave of demarches in September.

I believe that the democratic Moravcik government, or just any
democratic
government, as well as any technocratic government would not sign that
treaty. For Slovakia, it's a bad treaty exactly because of the EC 1201
Recommendation. It opens an interpretation dispute over the minority
rights. I suspect this is exactly what Meciar wanted: to sign something
spectacular that will not be possible to enforce and respect.

I have to add that personally, I don't believe in collective rights.
It's not the collective rights that are the pilliers of the democracy.
Collective rights for Magyar minority, if granted, would not contribute
to increased social stability, as they would give more rights to a
group of citizen, distinction made on ethnic principles. I think that
in the contrary, it's the individual rights that should be granted.

Unfortunately, in reality, the individual rights that would lead to the
development of a civil society, were stripped down under the shadow
of the Hungarian Treaty umbrella. Regions have been liquidated, local
autonomy questions buried, municipalities placed under tutelle of the
State and their revenues from direct taxes confiscated, in order these
to be thrown in the black hole of the State budget and redistributed
from there. According to criterions that follow a different logic than
a democratic one.


>> Can somebody then explain how is it that Hungary -- and not Slovakia --
>> that is delaying ratification?
>> Charles Vamossy
>
>      I would guess that what the Slovak government means is that
>Hungary is refusing to put in writing its interpretation of the
>article, and that until it does, either side can argue that there has
>been no meeting of the minds.
>    Jan George Frajkor                      _!_

Not a surprise to find that petty spin-doctored explanation. Let's be
misericordial, it's said to be a "guess", no local expertise required.

In reality, it's one of the el-cheapo propagandist tricks as to blame
the other side for everything. So, if Meciar appears in the top ten list
of the enemies of the freedom of the press, it's the opposition and the
President who are guilty. If the EU and NATO do not consider Slovakia as
a serious membership candidate, it's the fault of the evil Cechuni.

The ratification of the Hungarian treaty has been delayed because of
some obscure domestic political considerations. First, once the
spectacle of the ratification has been a success, there was no need
doing so, until a new political capital can be gained for Meciar.
"I did pass it", can he say now.

The Treaty was a target of attacks by the extreme Slovak National Party,
but Meciar could have passed it since a while thanks to support of the
opposition deputies in the Parliament. But then, this would create a
precedens where a normal democratic manners would be imported to the
unisono Slovak parliament, which would be a dangerous psychological
moment. The perfectly drawn line separating the coalition and the
opposition would be broken and other "thought purity imperfections"
might arise.

So, Meciar preferred bargaining with the extreme Slovak Party and to
exchange the Treaty for a promise of the Language Law, Law on the
Protection of the Republics, many "privatisations", and possibly
the death penalty.

Last week, OMRI and Slovak media reported that the Slovak Foreign
Ministry said on 9 May the Treaty will be ratified in its original
form with no unilateral additions. This shows again that for a
dictature, international attention is more important than the matter
itself. At least it will give us a treaty that's now, given the
worrysome context, more than needed.

Roman Kanala

--Boundary (ID jkqpMNgGDgA8Taj5NdptAQ)--

In article >, Joe Szalai
> says:
>

>
>Any chance that Hungary will be the third nation in the world to have such a
>human rights law?
>
>Joe Szalai

Miert te is homokos vagy?

Joe Szalai, quoting Martha Bihari:

>>There are some journals that limit the size of one posting.  While I
>>have no intentions of proposing anything like that on a discussion forum,
>>it would certainly be a good idea if we would *try* to make it - let's say -
>>not much beyond a 4-screen length on a particular subject.  Then put the
>>next subject into a different letter.
>
>What an inspired idea, Martha!  We could make our posts even smaller if we
>limited ourselves to - let's say - four letter words.  Of course, and it
>goes without saying, we'd ban those nasty four letter words that make you
>feel so uncomfortable.  OK?

        Interestingly the Forum--a place of absolute freedom--restricts
postings to 99 lines.

        Eva Balogh

At 07:50 AM 5/12/96 GMT, Laszlo May wrote:
>In article >, Joe Szalai
> says:
>>
>
>>
>>Any chance that Hungary will be the third nation in the world to have such a
>>human rights law?
>>
>>Joe Szalai
>
>Miert te is homokos vagy?

        Why? Does it make a difference to you?

        Eva Balogh

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

> I remember being told that the moment I was born the
>midwife slapped me...
Born under a reign of blows, eh? There's something almost Nostradamian
about this admission, Joe.
Sam Stowe

P.S. -- Old Rodney Dangerfield joke: "I was so ugly, when I was born the
doctor slapped my mother."

In article >, "Eva S. Balogh"
> writes:
> Dear Roman,
>
>         First of all, it is very nice to see your name on the list again.
> Second, thank you for reposting the Slovak *Law on the Protection of the
> Republic." As I am re-reading the provisions again, what bothers me most is
> the vagueness of these laws. Let's take the following:
>
>
>
>>Art. 98
>>
>>DAMAGING THE INTERESTS OF THE REPUBLICS
>>
>>Who, as a citizen of the Slovak Republic or a person without nationality
>>with a permanent residence on the territory of the Slovak Republic,
>>intentionally spreads abroad false informations that damage the
>>interests of the Republic, will be punished by loss of freedom up to
>>two years or with a financial penalty.
>
>         Let's assume that  I, as a permanent resident of Slovakia, get
> together with some friends and I say the following: "Slovakia's reputation
> is fairly shabby in the West and I understand that Mr. Meciar is despised by
> the western political leaders. I don't think  that X or Y company will
> invest in Slovakia because they are afraid of Mr. Meciar's intentions.
>
>         Somebody at present reports this conversation. What will happen to
> me in your opinion?

Let's put it that way, say there are two possibilities. Either the
guy is a treator and will leave these treator words without denouncing
them to the competent authorities, or the guy is a good, illuminated
Slovak (or your nasty neighbour with whom you have years long record
of disputes) and will fulfill his civil duty of delation.

In that latter case, there again are two possibilities: either you are
living in a locality with a favourable configuration of representatives
(means traitors and free-thinkers just like yourself) who will drop
the issue to the nearest trash and have a drink with you, or you are
at the beginning of some trouble and the machine starts eating you.

In that latter case, there are two possibilities: either you know
someone who will risk his own situation and use his influence to
help on you (and probably go to the same troubles on the next occasion
himself) or you have to face a trial.

In that latter case, there again are two possibilities, you either
have no previous record as traitor of our magnificent tribe, or ,
which is more likely, you are a well-know dissident and opposition
figure.

And in that latter case, there are no more two possibilities, only
one: you are definitely in deep s... (of course I mean deep spaghetti).

If it reminds some Svejk reply, it's not a pure coincidence. Recommended
reading, helped me to survive years under the previous totalitarian
dictature.

>
>         And one more question, Roman. What do you think of the Slovak
> parliament's addition to the Slovak-Hungarian treaty?  Although I am not a
> lawyer but I don't think that such an addition to an international treaty
> has any standing. What do you think? Moreover, what will happen?

I have forwarded here a text dealing with the issue.

> P.S. I just noticed that there are no developments concerning the new Slovak
> laws--see Roman's second posting. When I wrote the above I didn't notice the
> second posting. Sorry. I will read the letter as soon as I can. As a first
> reaction: I am so glad that there are at least 100 people who are willing to
> protest against such laws. Maybe, after all, East European democracy will be
> triumphant. ESB

The particularity of the protest was that the 100 signatures were
collected all around the globe on the Internet. The Law on the
Portection of the Republics has been widely condemned in Slovakia
by the intellectuals, bishops, priests, many people. However, a recent
poll showed there would be a very important part of the population
supporting it. Most of these people did not ever read it and are
60 or older, no education. Reminds the Meciar's electorate (who won
by a majority of 34 % ;-)

Again, international attention may help. Internal voices of protest
are ignored and disregarded.

Roman Kanala

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>
>Yea.  And those two orientations are, *good* and ...*better*.  That about
>covers it, no?
>
>Joe Szalai
>
>
Sounds like a "win-win" schema to me.
Sam Stowe

Dear colleagues,
     Many thanks to both Eva Balogh and Jeliko for their incitive
responses to my message.
Eva, thanks for those references which I shall take advantage of,
once I am able to order books.
     Actually I was not referring to the slave trade, but rather
to the taking of prisoners who would work in the mines, on craft
and possibly agriculture.  You are right Jeliko in suggesting
that taking of prisoners and dragging them for such long
distances would be difficult. However, it becomes obvious even
from an earlier period, that rather small armed bands could take
larger groups of prisoners across considerable distances.  Why
so?  The most plausible explanation in my opinion is that troops
could not arrive quickly enough.  In his other work, the Legatio
ad urbem constantinopolitanam, Liutprand of Cremona explicitly
states that he witnessed the dragging of 500 Greek prisoners by
300 Magyars near Thessalonica (I can supply you with the Latin
text if interested), and he is certainly not lying at this point.
At the same time, the Byzantine sources explicitly state the
capture, and freedom by the merciful emperor for that cause, of
prisoners by raiding Magyars.  If we take things a bit further, I
would suggest that the story of Botond indirectly points to that,
as well as the acquisition of wealth, perhaps more directly.
     Coming to this point true, Magyar bands would not need to
travel as far as Spain to acquire wealth, but geographical
distance is one relative factor.  The other is the feasibility of
the project.  If nearby German towns looked stronger at the time,
and a "kind prince" would instigate the Magyars come far afield
to pick their lot, then conditions favour such an adventurous
enterprise.
     Coming to the sack of towns, well I think Italian and German
sources do not always exaggerate.  The descriptions of the battle
of Brenta, and especially the sack of Pavia in 926 seem to me to
be pretty sound, and German descriptions are no better, if less
dramatic.  We must not forget that German territories and divided
tenth-century Italy, preserved the easiest urban targets for
raiders.  And why not the south, or east?  The late eminent
Hungarian byzantinist Gyula Moravcsik has rightly suggested that
a strong Bulgaria discourraged Magyar raids until 927, while I
would suggest, that no matter how strong the Pechenegs were,
crossing the Carpathians to the east might be hazardous for small
bands, and also an unworthy cause for profit.
     Jeliko, I would be most grateful if you did send along
Hungarian references, because Hungarian scholarship is rather
hard to obtain, and harder to look it up although my Hungarian is
at a rather advanced stage (you may recall that I am a
congenitally blind scholar).  Now as to Hamartolus, or Georgius
Monachus as known by us Byzantinists (Hamartolus being mainly the
slavonic derivation), I shall check and let you know if there is
an English translation, before saying that I think there isn't
one.  But if anyone of you needs some help with Greek sources,
please do not hesitate to let me know and I shall always do my
best to assist.
     Finally I wouldlike to close this lengthy message with a
question that puzzles me as a non-Hungarian.  It relates to the
Szekely people, generally referred to as Siculi in the medieval
chronicles.  Comments on them by the medieval Hungarian
chroniclers are rather derogatory, and I wonder if there exists a
derogatory tradition about them in Hungary, at least in medieval
Hungary, such as exists for the Swabians in Germany, the people
of Bergamo in Italy, and our compatriots from the Black sea
region, here in Greece.
                    Uedvezlem,
                    Panagiotis

Thanks a lot to Csaba Zoltani for coming to my rescue about
    the book I couldn't recall.  I have promised  that I'll supply
    the info. about the book and here it is:

             Czeizel, A. et al.,

             Genetics of the Hungarian Population

             Akademiai Kiado, Budapest, 1991.

             LC (Library of Congress) Card 91004885

             ISBN   3540535802 * 0387535802

             RLIN ID G92-B231

       Any good library should  either have a copy  or know how to
    get it.
       Good reading,
                     Amos

Hooray to the Academic class of Hungary list.Now that Szuch has gone the
academics are in full force.
I would suggest that from now on anybody who is writingto this list,should
also include their academic standing.
Otherwise I can accomodate you in my swimmingpool and sauna,but you have to
look for your own golf club
Andy.

In article >, "Johanne L. Tournier"
> writes:

>Haliho!
>
>Another old ugly joke - You were so ugly, that when you were born the
doctor
>turned you over and said, "Look, twins!"
>
>Apologies for crassness -
>
>Johanne
>
>Johanne L. Tournier
>e-mail - 
>(Soon to have my address involuntarily changed to *)
>>
>>
>
>

Excellent! And no need to apologize -- crassness is its own reward.
Sam Stowe

At 07:29 12/05/96 -0400, Stowe-wrote:
>In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:
>
>> I remember being told that the moment I was born the
>>midwife slapped me...
>Born under a reign of blows, eh? There's something almost Nostradamian
>about this admission, Joe.
>Sam Stowe
>
>P.S. -- Old Rodney Dangerfield joke: "I was so ugly, when I was born the
>doctor slapped my mother."

Haliho!

Another old ugly joke - You were so ugly, that when you were born the doctor
turned you over and said, "Look, twins!"

Apologies for crassness -

Johanne

Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 
(Soon to have my address involuntarily changed to *)
>
>

Dear Eva and Aniko;

At 05:38 PM 5/11/96 -0700, you wrote:
>At 07:05 PM 5/11/96 -0300, Aniko wrote, quoting Cecilia:
>
>>>I strongly suspect that Sam Stowe and Joe Szalai may have had some very
>>>unpleasant experiences with certain types of people,particularly females,
>
>>I don't think, that anyone of us, should ever have the right to make
>>assumptions and strong statements on another being, when the obvious lack of
>>personal contact and knowledge derived from are missing.  May I suggest,
>>that getting to know each personally *first* might be in order.
>
>        Not only that. But both men are actually most open-minded about
>women both publicly on the list and in private correspondence. This was a
>very unfair statement to make. A statement based on nothing.
>
>        Eva Balogh
>
Perhaps then I should let people who are described in terms of being goats
when Mr. Stowe disagrees with them, be abused in this fashion and thus
encourage others to engage in such wonderful descriptions of character when
then disagree on issues?  If you enjoy being described as a goat, that's
fine, but could you please then suggest to Sam that he reserve such a
description of endearment to private mail?  Some of us would not consider
that flattering, I'm sure.  Perhaps you also enjoy being told you are
irrational, that your opinions are nothing but tripe, etc., etc. as has
appeared in a number of comments by Mr. Stowe and Mr. Szalai toward others,
but it is not considered respectful among most people I know.  I have also
observed (especially since I just went through several hundred pieces of
e-mail on the list) that the harshest character comments of these two
gentlemen do often appear to be directed to several females (not all
females, but several in particular).  Frankly, I count myself lucky that I
haven't received quite the number of personal insults that others have, but
I do care about others.  I've seen enough responses after these insults that
did lead me to believe some of them definitely hurt some feelings.  Perhaps
I was mistaken?

My apologies, indeed, if calling a person an old goat, or her opinions
generally as "so much tripe" are considered respectful and helpful
discussion comments on this list!

Respectfully,


Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA
tel./fax: 408-223-6102
e-mail: 

P.S. On the idea that it takes reading Hungarian to know the character of
this list:  Since well over half the postings are in English, that seems to
suggest instead that a minority perspective is the "correct" one?  Tell me,
if there are separate Hungarian rules for "good manners" are there are also
separate rules for Hungarian Olympic volleyball or hockey?  Are there
separate rules also for Hungarian diplomacy in other international forums?
Could the insistence on such separate, unique sets of rules be the reason
Hungary has such a hard time dealing with so many other nations?

It's easy to maintain separate unique rules in isolated situations. However,
this list is an international list involving--and open to--any responsible
person regardless of ethnic background.  It isn't exclusively Hungarian, or
even ethnic Hungarian.  It's doubtful that Mr. Stowe or Mr. Agnew, for
instance, as suggested by their surnames are full ethnic Hungarians, yet
they are significant contributors to this discussion, and Mr. Agnew is the
list manager.  If someone wants to make an internet listgroup that's only
open to Hungarians, or ethnic Hungarians who speak, read and write
Hungarian, that's fine, but this isn't that kind of listgroup yet.

By the way, just a reminder, I wasn't able to learn Hungarian because of the
mistreatment of Hungarians in this country, and my father's desire to spare
me being beaten up as he and many others were for being or demonstrating too
obviously that they were Hungarian.  We were officially declared "enemies"
in two World War II's in this country and that state was heavily
propagandized to work up the appropriate level of hate in soldiers and
soon-to-be soldiers to get them to kill enemies.  Telling the U.S. who won
both wars, and still feels so self-righteous about everything they did
related to the wars, in Hungarian, as so many books and individuals have
tried to do, that we were not the enemy hasn't made a whole lot of
difference to this day.  As an enemy people--or at least a people one can't
entirely trust because the improved track record is so short--it's not up to
them to learn your language.  HUNGARIANS are in the "supplicant-inferior"
position.  They are expected to learn the language of those whose favors
they seek, or whose favorable change of attitude they seek.  You wouldn't be
hearing Mr. Holbrooke's comments in Hungary and Romania if the national
leadership attitude had changed much.

>From my own personal perspective, as a person who is currently advising
Republican candidates on foreign policy, the kind of comment like, "you
can't possibly understand Hungarians, or even a Hungarian list without
reading the language fluently," doesn't exactly make me feel like putting
Hungary, or ethnic Hungarians then on my priority list for assistance for
anything.  However, I will ignore my feelings, and be an optimist that the
majority of Hungarians, especially those in an international listgroup do
not share this attitude.  Since the "campaign foreign minister" of Mr.
Zyuganov (a Mr. Ayzayanov) when speaking just a few weeks ago in San Jose
made it very clear if Hungary persisted in its effort to join NATO, that
when Mr. Zyuganov was elected (he is now 20 points ahead..) "Russia would
use every means of persuasion--financial, political and military to prevent
this," I had thought you might like some assistance this time from the U.S.
when the Russian tanks start rolling across the Hungarian border.  Perhaps
I'm wrong on this, though?  Do you like being an occupied Russian satellite
instead? Should we Americans just stand back and let the Russians have their
way with you?  However, until you tell me you want the Russians under Mr.
Zyuganov and General Lebed back in Hungary again, I will optimistically
assume otherwise.  But  please allow me to briefly engage in a little bit of
creative license (or is it licentiousness? ;-) ) for a satirical personal
response, on the attitude that anyone on this list who doesn't read/write
Hungarian fluently should just "bug out" or something.

Tell me, please, was it a member of this listgroup who riled Mr. Holbrooke?
Have you all considered copywriting a book of insults to start conflicts and
promote discrimination and genocide?  Could we persuade you to turn your
"talents" toward teaching the Russians and Chinese to insult one another in
this manner.  Perhaps by your whipping up some intense dislike there, we
could get them to focus on one another, especially with some serious border
warfare and that way they would leave the rest of the world alone.  How well
do you speak Russian or Chinese?  You know, they are much more available in
classes in most U.S. states universities and even some high schools than
Hungarian...  Ah, I have it. Just think of this scenario: you could teach
them enough vitriolic insults, etc. to drive them to a nuclear war.  Because
the winds across Hungary generally move from west to east, the U.S. would
get the fallout first, then West Europe.  There would be so little left by
the time it got to Hungary, ethnic Hungarians could then truly stand
supremely alone and enjoy their arrogance...  Then they wouldn't have to
worry about anyone from any other country being on _their_ listgroups and
not speaking or reading Hungarian, fluently, right?

So sorry to end your hopes on getting rid of _all_ of us ignoramuses,
however.  I'm afraid you will still be stuck with at least me.  I'm already
a genetic mutant probably due to atomic radiation.  You see, My mother was
carrying me during the U.S. Aleutian atomic tests, and lived on Kodiak.
It's done some damage (e.g.necessitating the recent surgery), like
preventing me from having children of my own, among other things, but, I'm
still here...  I guess I was plain born extra stubborn.  So I guess teaching
your insult skills to the Russians and Chinese might not work to your
satisfaction after all.  I guess you had better develop a
Hungarian-language-only listgroup instead, for as long as the rest of the
world decides to let a contrarian, inimical or isolationist Hungary to
exist, right?


Well, that's all the entertainment I can provide today, folks.  I'm supposed
to be briefing a Republican Congressional candidate (and currently Naval
intelligence officer: area--the entire "eastern bloc...") on a few things
and help draft some items with him this afternoon.  My husband is suggesting
sharing a nice glass of wine in a peaceful garden just before I do that.
It's probably a good idea.  Cheers!


Sincerely,

Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA
tel.& fax: 408-223-6102
e-mail: 











N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

84 m2, 2-bedroom condo overlooking the Buda Hills in a beautiful,
small apartment house of Budapest' s exclusive Rozsadomb disrict
(Nagybanyai Street) is for immediate sale. It features telephone,
garage, hardwood floor and gas central heating. Easy access to the
city: downtown is just a short, convenient 15-minute ride by public
transportation. If you are interested, please send an E-mail to
.

Cecilia's longish P.S. was really quite unnecessary. She simply
misunderstood my line about her knowledge, or rather its lack of, Hungarian.
My note simply said that if she could read the Forum--a Hungarian-language
list--I doubt that she would accuse us of overreaction. Gabor Farkas, who
has the "privilege" of being able to read day in and day out the most
vitriolic antisemitic, national socialist drivel, is right. There is no
overreaction here. That's all. The English-language list for those who can
handle English, including the native speakers. On the other hand, the Forum
is a closed book for those who don't know Hungarian and most of the
antisemitism we are talking about takes place on the Forum.

        I will spare the readership of quoting Cecilia's P.S. of
considerable length.

        Eva Balogh

Joe Pannon ) wrote:

> Roman Kanala  > wrote:
>
>>I have to add that personally, I don't believe in collective rights.
>>It's not the collective rights that are the pilliers of the democracy.
>>Collective rights for Magyar minority, if granted, would not contribute
>>to increased social stability, as they would give more rights to a
>>group of citizen, distinction made on ethnic principles. I think that
>>in the contrary, it's the individual rights that should be granted.
>
> Ah, there is a limit even to Roman's legendary good will and
> tolerance!  Why, what do you think is wrong with the Tyrolean solution
> between Italy and Austria?


Seems I did not express it very well. The difference between collective
and individual rights is that the individual ones are of a higher order
than the collective ones. There is a difference when one has to say
something like, we the people, or, I the citizen.

Individual rights automatically mean the respect of all the rights
that can be granted by collective approach. They go even further, as
to grant rights to individuals regardless of being backed by a group
of people with similar attributes.

For example, in the Slovak case, collective rights mean some cultural
autonomy, some street names and tables, some schools, all that where
Magyar minority is represented 10-20%. Individual rights mean the same,
but anywhere in the country. Collective rights are not divisible, not
transferrable, and create an unfair treatment because of inegality.
Individual rights are giving a new quality to the notion of citizenship,
as opposed to the concept of a collective being that the Central Europe
is carrying as burden of its complex history of nationalisms.

The ideal is when noone asks what nationality (in ethnic sense) one is,
but what citizenship he holds. In Switzerland, we are close to that
ideal state. People are simply Swiss regardless of whether they speak
five languages, three, two, or just one. Public servants have a legal
obligation to speak at least two national lanugages and the citizen
have right to speak their language for every official purpose.

The case of South TIrolia has been frequently quoted by Meciar II in
the early days when it still wasn't clear what his agenda was. It's
an example that the collective rights might lead to a creation of a
ghetto and ethnic stratification, an evolution from a spectre to a
dichotomy. Short, exactly the opposite what would be in interest of
Slovakia given its history, settlement pattern and common cultural
heritage of the two nations.

Roman Kanala

PS. I am crossposting this article also to bit.listserv.hungary as
it may be of interest to the list's readership.

At 07:50 AM 5/12/96 GMT, Laszlo May, wrote:

>Miert te is homokos vagy?

Translation:  "Why, are you also gay?"

Well, Laszlo, you know that you don't have to be gay to support a human
rights law that prohibits discrimination based on sexual orientation.  If
you've been reading this list for a while, you'd know that I support equal
rights for women.  Why didn't you ask me if I was a women?  I'm also opposed
to the mistreatment of Gypsies.  Why didn't you ask me if I was a Gypsy?
I'm opposed to anti-semitism.  Why didn't you ask me if I was a Jew?   I
could go on and on but I think you get my point.

Your question can be taken another way.  The "also" part interests me.  What
do you mean by "also"?  Are you trying to tell us that you're gay and you
want to know if I'm "also" gay.  Perhaps you're looking for a partner or you
just want some quick sex.  If you are, then please email me in private.
Just one cautionary note.  I like my men to have staying power.  I mean, who
wouldn't?

Joe Szalai

At 08:26 AM 5/12/96 -0400, Sam Stowe, wrote:

>>Yea.  And those two orientations are, *good* and ...*better*.  That about
>>covers it, no?
>>
>>Joe Szalai

>Sounds like a "win-win" schema to me.
>Sam Stowe

And thanks for being a gentleman, Sam.  You could have asked which
orientation was *good* and which was *better*, but you didn't.  Besides,
there's no benefit in starting a human stampede.

Joe Szalai

At 04:24 AM 5/12/96 -0700,  Eva Balogh, wrote:

>>Miert te is homokos vagy?
>
>        Why? Does it make a difference to you?
>
>        Eva Balogh

I don't know if it makes a difference to Laszlo, but it does make a
difference to some people.  In Canada, lesbians and gays have been fighting
for freedom (in Hungarian, we'd call that "szabadsagharc") for the last 27
years.  I wonder if TIME magazine is paying any attention?

Joe Szalai

If any of you is subscribed to the HIX version (compiled) of the Hungary
list, and if you answer Eva Balogh's thread, that contains the word
"unsubscribe" in the subject, you automatically get unsubscribed from it.
Please make sure this word (or other ones that are recognized by list
servers) does not appear in future subject lines.

Gabor D. Farkas

<Snip>
Quoting Cecilia:
>Perhaps then I should let people who are described in terms of being goats
>when
<Snip>

Dear Cecilia:

If you take a peak at my reply to Joe's post "Not so Fast Cecilia", you will
find that my sentiments are exactly the same regarding flaming.

Hope this clears up the fact that my intent was not to personally address
any one given individual; but rather the concept at large of utilizing
assumptions, strong statements and flaming.  Most especially so; when aimed
at any individual, while personal knowledge of another's being is lacking.

In fact, after re-reading your original post in question; somewhere prior to
the comment which I replied to will show that my thoughts may actually echo
your own  - "attack the topic hand", disagree, flame, assume, utilize strong
statements, sarcasm, etc to make your point, but do so, while leaving  " the
person intact"  - (only your words were probably far more eloquent).
                             -----------------------------------------------
-------
Now.. come on you all!  It's really bugging me, that we have built this
great "faculty club" - which bears no name - and nobody else seems to care?

Happy Mother's Day Eve to All the "Moms"
Aniko

You wrote:

>Now.. come on you all!  It's really bugging me, that we have built
this
>great "faculty club" - which bears no name - and nobody else seems to
care?
>
>Happy Mother's Day Eve to All the "Moms"
>Aniko
>

Perhaps if we leave the "faculty" off the name, yet retain our
faculties, it would be a great deal more open to all.


Charlie Vamossy

I should by now be offically unsubscribed, and hope I have not offended
anyone in my slight delay, especially down London way.

I also apologize for partakening in what I found so disheartening about
this list, when I would imagine the majority have simply learned to
PgDn.

By the way, my log-on "jaume" is Catalan in origin,
and I'm a petit 29 year old female! Perhaps I can only follow in the
footsteps of Jozsi-ba.

Szia and Adios

Thanks to Andy Kozma for reminding us that only on a list dealing with
East/East Central Europe (in this case, Hungary) could being an academic
be considered as being on a par with being, say, a child molester, or
a sub-humanoid.  My profound apologies to Andy and his friends for having
earned a Ph.D.

Udv.,
William M. Batkay, Ph.D., Columbia University 1972, M.A., columbia
        Univesity 1967, Certificate from the Institute on East Central
        Europe, Columbia University 1967 (perhaps the most offensive of
        my degrees?), BA, Fordham University 1965