Who cares how jews suffered,or didn't suffer in Hungary in ww2 
or whenever.Sick of this whining.Maybe they should move to 
their own country if we are so "antisemitic".Preferbly sooner 
than later.

Who cares how jews suffered,or didn't suffer in Hungary in ww2 
or whenever.Sick of this whining.Maybe they should move to 
their own country if we are so "antisemitic".Preferbly sooner 
than later.

Szegyeld hogy nem vagy az!

Stipendio Ivo Lapenna
 *********************

 Memore  al  prof.  d-ro  Ivo  Lapenna (1909 - 1987) kaj al liaj elstaraj
 meritoj  por  la  Internacia  Lingvo  g^enerale  kaj ties aplikado en la
 scienco  speciale,  "Fondaj^o  Ivo  Lapenna"  starigis  "Stipendion  Ivo
 Lapenna".

 La  stipendio  konsistas  el  subvenciado al disertacioj je universitata
 nivelo   (doktorig^oj,   magistrig^oj,   licencioj),   kiuj   temas  pri
 esperantologio  kaj  /  au~ pri Esperanto en rilato kun interlingvistiko
 kaj estas ellaboritaj en la spirito de L. L. Zamenhof kaj Ivo Lapenna.

 En  la  jaro  1996  Stipendio  Ivo  Lapenna  povos  esti  aljug^ita  por
 disertacioj  oficiale  akceptitaj  de  universitata  instanco en la jaro
 1995.

 Au~toroj,  dezirantaj  kandidatig^i al la Stipendio, bv. peti la detalan
 regularon  de la sekretario-kasisto de Fondaj^o Ivo Lapenna: s-ro Torben
 Svendsen, Vanlose Alle 57, DK-2720 Vanlose, Danio.

 Limdato  por la sendo de la faklaboraj^o en du ekzempleroj estas fino de
 februaro 1996. Adreso:

 D-ro Klaus Perko,
 Lendkai 111, A-8020 Graz, Au~strio


 ************************************************************************
     Preskau c^iu kiu gravas en Esperantujo, abonas al Eventoj...
                          C^u ankau~ Vi?
 ************************************************************************

This is one Hungarian who is here but for the most part I'm lurking.
I must say that I really am enjoying the variouse discusions and even
some of the flames.  One thing that really pisses me off though is the
posting by the twit who is ashamed to be Hugarian.  I would suggest to
him that Hungarians have not one damned thing to be ashamed of, in
fact, Hungarians should be very proud of our past history and
accomplishments.  I don't think that I'm the most qualified person to
go into a long doctoral thesis and history lesson about our past, but
I do know enough to understand that if not for the "Allies" after
Triaon, Hungary today would be a lot different society.  I will always
be proud of my Hungarian heritage, even though I'm not a pure blooded
Magyar ( I'm part Magyar, part Moravian). At any rate enough said.
Any one else have any comments??

In article > ibokor, 
writes:
>I agree that in the view of contemporary Hungary (i.e. the Hungary
>of the period between the woirld wars), Hitler's Germany 
>was a natural ally, and pursued the poltics and policies which would
>have had significant support in Hungary, even if to many in Hungary
>Hitler was going too far.

After Trianon it was predetermined and evident that Hungary will side
that power that will examine the Trianon Treaty and the related World
Order regardless of the other intents of the power.

>In that sense, Nazi Germany
>was the "right horse". But at the end of the race, it was the loser.
>Hungary again sided with the losers in a major war.

This argumentation has it serious flaws I think. Basicly this con-
clusion is drown from an moralizing political  point of view. In the
real word it does not matter who sided who *if* at the end some-
one is on the right side. Horthy and his advisors also comitted the
error of building their countries long distance political strategy on
a moral (moreover: wrongly chosen) ground.

Hungary was (and is ) a small country who could (and should) not
have and support global political interests further her very own na-
tional interests.

From strict Hungarian point of view it is not matter who win a
war of great powers. Only three things are important :

1. continuously beeing on and switching to the paying side 

2. when status quo is near, beeing on the winners side

3. in status quo managing to be on no one's side but suppor-
ting that side which pays more.

So, instead of your last sentence:
  "Hungary again sided with the losers in a major war."
You should have written:
  Hungary again was on the losers side at the end of a
major war.

Tamás

Who cares how jews suffered,or didn't suffer in Hungary in ww2 
or whenever.Sick of this whining.Maybe they should move to 
their own country if we are so "antisemitic".Preferbly sooner 
than later.

Sacramento Hungarian Association
P.O. Box 254534
Sacramento, CA 95865


You and your family and friends are cordially invited to a delightful
Christmas Dinner.

        December 16, 1995, Saturday
        at Rascal’s Pub & Grill
        9819 Horn Road,  Rancho Cordova
        (on Folsom Boulevard, West from Bradshaw)

        Coctails at 6:00 p.m.  Dinner at 7:00 p.m.
    Menu:
    Roast beef and chicken with mushroom
    Garlic roasted red potatoes and rice pilaf, sweet peas
    Pasta Primavera, home made rolls
    Salad, cafe, cake or cookies

Music: Piros Karaván with Lívia Dóra and Gyula Bodrogi (Los Angeles)

Proper attire required.			Dinner is $20/person

Reservation is absolutely necessary!!!  (One week in advance)
Please call Zsuzsa at (916) 361-1679 and send a check by mail to: 
Susan Artenstein, 9472 Appalachian Drive, Sacramento, CA  95827

If you have any questions, please call Susan at the above telephone
number or E-mail to Gabor at  

Szegyeld hogy nem vagy az!

T. Kocsis ) wrote:
: In article > ibokor, 
: writes:
: >What is contemptible is the denial of these facts. Any honourable person 
: >would admit that Horthy's Hungary had backed the wrong horse.
: 
: No, he chose the right one. He, however, missed to change horses in
: the right time.
: 

I agree that in the view of contemporary Hungary (i.e. the Hungary
of the period between the woirld wars), Hitler's Germany 
was a natural ally, and pursued the poltics and policies which would
have had significant support in Hungary, even if to many in Hungary
Hitler was going too far. In that sense, Nazi Germany
was the "right horse". But at the end of the race, it was the loser.
Hungary again sided with the losers in a major war.

d.A.

In article >,  (Dan Pop) writes:
|> In >  (Matyas ) writes:
|> 
|> >On the other hand the main issue wasn't (again) who got what from who, but 
|> >Romanian's attitude towards its minorities (as compared to Canada).
|> 
|> Canada being a federal state, it is incorrect to consider the Quebecois
|> a Canadian minority.  They form the majority in their own province, which
|> has its own government and so on.  Any comparison between Romania and
|> Canada is pointless.  If you don't get my point, try to compare Hungary
|> with Canada (or with Switzerland).  Such comparisons are equally pointless.
|> 

First, I made the statement above because once again a thread (the title of 
which has been mainained) was diverted to the "classical" who got what from who
and when and generally who did more wrong to the other, topics which as we 
should know by now don't lead anywhere. I'm only sorry for those who aren't
able to argue about anything else... Your explanation about the federal states
gets very boring and especially in this case make no sense: according to it
a non-federative state may treat its minories any way it likes to (well it 
may be your opinion, but who cares).

|> >And this is
|> >an important issue because Romania promised a lot when it was given Transyl
vania.
|> 
|> Unlike Hungary which didn't promise anything to the Romanians and didn't
|> give them any rights in 1940, despite the fact that they were the majority
|> in Northern Transylvania.

Even if you abstract from the context there is a tremendous difference between
not keeping a made promise and not promising. But even if I don't want to
get into an argument about numbers again, I doubt it that your statement about 
a
Romanian majority in "Northern Transylvania" is true or documented. And don't
blame it on the scientific library of CERN again.

|> 
|> Dan
|> --
|> Dan Pop
|> CERN, CN Division
|> Email:  
|> Mail:  CERN - PPE, Bat. 31 R-004, CH-1211 Geneve 23, Switzerland

Matyas
--****ATTENTION****--****ATTENTION****--****ATTENTION****--***ATTENTION***
Your e-mail reply to this message WILL be *automatically* ANONYMIZED.
Please, report inappropriate use to                
For information (incl. non-anon reply) write to    
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>OMRI DAILY DIGEST
>No. 228, 22 November 1995
>
>NOTE TO READERS: DUE TO THE OBSERVANCE OF A U.S. HOLIDAY, THE OMRI
>DAILY DIGEST WILL NOT APPEAR ON 23 OR 24 NOVEMBER 1995.

I don't get this.  OMRI is not the US-sponsored RFE/RL any more and is
located in Prague, Czech Republic.  How come they still observe such a
US-specific holiday as Thanksgiving Day?

Any ideas?

Joe Pannon

Jan Gajdos > wrote:
>CHARLES VAMOSSY writes:
>        ^^^^^^^
>
>#
># What an incredible and unusual country Slovakia must be.  Very few -- if
># any -- countries in the world would consider passing a CRIMINAL law
># requiring it's citizens to use correct grammar.
>
>   Why are you, Hungarian people, so aggresive ?
>   You are not familiar with the situation and you use such hard
>words ...
>
>    jano

Thanks, Jano, for the implied compliment of assuming I can speak for the 
Hungarian people, but I must disappoint you, for I speak only for myself.


As far as as the hard words are concerned, mine are only a fraction as 
hard as the Slovak language law that would put in prison anyone caught 
speaking a foreign language in Slovakia.  For an American it is 
inconcievable for me to imagine a land where priests, ministers, rabbis 
are sent to prison for preaching the word of God in a lanuage their 
believers speak or in which their Bible was written in.

So far it has been mainly Hungarians who have spoken out against this 
law, both here on the Internet and in the press.  But I see more and more 
people of other ethnic origin express their outrage.

Take care...

Charles Vamossy

 (Attila Balla) wrote:


>This is wonderful reading  some 2000 years later it requires the cyberspace to
 
>deal with the legacy of Attila  FROM THE ARROWS OF THE MAGYARS  SVE US O GOD 
>prayed the modern Europa in the 5 century. Also note every nation that picked 
>on the Hungarians has lost the war. Aks the russians, germans the asurians and
 
>the hubsburgs. Attila 

Let's get something straight here: 

the alleged Hun-Magyar dynastic continuity it's neither a historical
fact, nor a myth without any basis in facts. It is just a plain
misconception. There is no connection, whatsoever, between the 5th
century Attila the Hun and 9th century Arpad. Period.

Liviu Iordache

 (Dan Pop) wrote:

>>And this is
>>an important issue because Romania promised a lot when it was given Transylva
nia.

>Unlike Hungary which didn't promise anything to the Romanians and didn't
>give them any rights in 1940, despite the fact that they were the majority
>in Northern Transylvania.

I finally got it! According to Dan, present-day Romanian citizens
(i.e., the Hungarian minority) must take the punishment for the wrong
doing, some 50 years ago, of their relatives from a foreign country.
Anyhow, the real issue here, the one that Dan has a  hard time trying
to avoid, is what the Romanians promised, in 1918 and 1990, and failed
yet to fulfill. Have you ever read paragraph 1 of Article 3 of the
Alba Iulia declaration? 

Liviu Iordache

In article > Liviu Iordache,
 writes:
>the alleged Hun-Magyar dynastic continuity it's neither a historical
>fact, nor a myth without any basis in facts. It is just a plain
>misconception. There is no connection, whatsoever, between the 5th
>century Attila the Hun and 9th century Arpad. Period.

Liviu,

I don't believe in the continuity either but your argumenta-
tion is wrong. This continuity claim is not fixed to the Car-
pathian basin. Actually Atilla, Attila, Etzel... organized the
most of the steppian tribes around that time for his inva-
sion. According to some historical evidences the Magyar
tribes of that time were already steppian tribes, so they might
have taken part in Attila's ventures. As a matter of fact
even hundreds of years later most of the turkish  tribe leaders
traced back their origin to Attila 'cose he was so famous
amongst them. The conquest-time Magyr tribes were strongly
turkicized, certain Hungarian historians even assumes that
those tribes were bilingual and the leadership were rather
Turk ethnically then Magyar. And it is also true that the
our old tribe leaders thought that they were the ancestors
of Attila. Well, they also thought that they were the ances-
tor a predatory bird called turul....

So, it might have happened, but - i am sure - no one will
be able to prove it because the birth and death certificates
were lost when the Registry Office burnt down in Attila's
woodcastle by  Tisza river.... :) :)

Tamas

Seeking information regarding GYORGY WEISS. He was 10 years old
in 1942 when he fled from his birthplace of Ivanka, Slovakia/
Hungary with his stepmother, PAULA STERN WEISS, and his half-
sister, LILI. From Ivanka they went to SURANY, Hungary/Slovakia.

It has never been determined if Gyorgy (or his stepmother and
halfsister for that matter) survived the War or not. His aunt
(my mother-in-law) is requesting any leads or information. Her
name at the time was MARGIT [MANCI] KOHN. She, too, is from
Ivanka and fled in 1940.

Hopefully, her nephew Gyorgy was fortunate enough to have
escaped the murdering beasts and is alive today, G-d willing. 
Please forward all information. Thank you!
-- 
Regards,
Keith A. Reinsdorf
Northridge, California

I would appreciate, if anyone could give me reliable, documented answer to 
the following statistical and philosophical problems. I would prefer e-mail 
to 

1./ Atlas of the Holocaust. (Martin Gilbert. William Morrow and Co. Inc. New 
York. 1988,1993. p.242.) claims that there were 300,000 Jewish Holocaust 
Survivors in Hungary. It is notable, that the same source claims that the 
about 300 Jews court martialed in Siofok in the Summer of 1919,  were one of 
the earliest Holocaust victims,

According to the 1930 official census 490,000 Jews lived in Hungary, this 
number shrunk to 400,760 for the time of the 1940 census. There was a 
massive exodus of Jewish people from Hungary, due to the "Numerus clausus" 
which restricted the number of Jews in the universities and Government to 
their percentile in the population. Some sources claim that this was a 
reaction for the massacre of about 50,000 people during the 1919 communist 
revolution, where 33 of the 35 commissars were Jew. The 1946 census 
restricted to Budapest counted 200,000 Jews, somewhat higher than the number 
of Jews living in Budapest before the war (186,000). This is in accord with 
the above quoted 300,000 Jews in Hungary countrywide. The Holocaust
Encyclopedia claims that 600,000 Hungarian Jews were killed in the summer of 
1944 in Auschwitz, the same number came up in this news group.

The Hungarian population in 1940 was 9,316,074. Due to the border 
corrections this increased to 11,140,000  (no official census is available) 
.. According to Robert Kann's extended studies (History of the Habsburg 
Empire, 1526 - 1918;  University of California Press 1974) in 1910 the 
percentile of the Jews in the Hungarian part of the monarchy was 4.5 percent 
of the total population. (p. 606). This means that the less than 2,000,000 
total population increase, increase the number of Jews to no more than 
600,000, during the time of Holocaust. How can this data to be reconciled 
with the claimed 600,000 Hungarian Holocaust victims.

2./ The estimated Jewish population in the United States:
  1927 : 4,267,000    1937 : 4,770,000   1942 : 5,000,000   1953: 5,000,000
  1954 : 5,500,000    1959 : 5,500,000   1960 : 5.365,000
(Source: The World Almanach Commemorative edition, and the Hystorical 
Statistic of the United States)
  The trend between 1942 and 1960 is unnatural. Why?

3./ In Ukraine between 1931 - 1933  8,000,000 people died due to the 
artificial famine, and internal exile of the Cossacks. (The world Almanach & 
book of Facts)  The total number of the victims of the Stalinism is 
estimated as 20,000,000. 60 - 70 % of the KGB leadership, who executed this 
abominable crimes were Jewish origin. Some of us may be remeber a Jew, 
Matthias Rakosi (Rothwein) and his associates.  Is it true, that
certain crimes never expire, and the word can to be safe, until the 
criminals are not punished, and their nation does not pay proper 
restitution?

Laszlo Kiss

In article > laszlo kiss, 
writes:
>It is notable, that the same source claims that the 
>about 300 Jews court martialed in Siofok in the Summer of 1919,  were one of 
>the earliest Holocaust victims,

It is better if you read it this way: "about 300 communists were..."
because
not all of them were Jews but all of them were communists.

Tamás

Kicsit kesve bar, de megerkezett ez a level is a serverunkre.
/*----*/

Laszlo Kakits irja:
>  Hat itt azert nem artott volna mondjuk egyetlen pelda arra,
>hogy en hol szemelyeskedtem, becsmereltem, vagy ragalmaztam
>barmelyikotoket is. Es hol volt itt a csoport barmely tagja
>megvadolva valamivel? Erre mindenkeppen kerek peldat, vagy
>azonnali visszavonast.

Amit irtam az elsorban a vita es a veszekedes kulonbsegerol szol,
arrol, hogy nem mi miattunk fajult el a dolog. Te azt az artiku-
lalatlan, gyululkodo velemenyt probalod vedeni, ami ezt a vitat
elinditotta, minket teszel felelosse, hogy ilyenne alakult. Nincs
ebben igazad. Ne mi hibaztunk.

>  Tevedek ha ugy emlekszem mintha Te irtad volna, hogy ha
>valaki egy bizonyos modon kozelit meg egy temat akkor
>elkuldened a kurva anyjaba? Ha nem tevedek akkor itt meg vannak
>lehetosegek a javulasra.

Vannak dolgok amibol mindenhol anyazas lesz, es ez igy helyen-
valo.

>>Antiszemitizmus vita ebben a csoportban mČg nem volt, csak

>  Valaki azt irta, hogy beesett neha ide valaki, lafasisztazta
>a tarsasagot aztan elhuzott. Ezek kapcsolatosak voltak az
>antiszemitizmussal ? En ezeket nem lattam, nem tudok semmit
>roluk.

Ezt en irtam. Eddig sohamem vita alakult ki, hanem veszekedes. A leg-
elso, amibe belecsoppentem ket evvel ezelott, ujjonckent, ugy indult,
hogy egy holgy (magyar szarmazasu zsido muveszfele) elsirta a panaszat
"I am ashamed of being Hungarian" cim alatt. Kisertetiesen ugyanaz
tortent, mint most, csak akkor durvabbak voltak a reakciok mindket
oldalon.

>Viszont ugy tunik a tema tovabbra is vagy tabu, vagy
>vagy az orok tagadas birodalmaba tartozik.

En nem kezelem a kerdest tabukent. Es nem vagyok hajlando ovatoskodva
finomkodva targyalni azt. Rajtam nem fog mulni a parbeszed, es ha lesz
ilyen vita, szeretnek benne resztvenni. Igaz egyenlore csak ugy szor-
menten, mert eppen a doktorim irasanal tartok, ami tul sok energiamat
elveszi. Emellett januar kozepe elott semmikeppen nem tudok felszerel-
kezni irodalommal.

>A haboru utani, mai antiszemitizmusrol azonban eleg jo
>ismeretekkel rendelkezem.

Ez egy masik vita, vagy a vita masik szala lehetne.

/*---*/
Par megosztasra szant gondolatom maris van a kerdest illetoleg.

Nagyon sok dolog, amit a zsidok eloszeretettel tuntetnek fel antisze-
mitizmusnak, az nem biztos, hogy tenyleg az.

A magyar tarsadalom hagyomanyosan erosen szegregalodott, kasztosodott
bizonyos erovonalak menten. Ket fo kaszthatar letezett,es reszben le-
tezik egeszen maig. A legfontosabb, gyakorlatilag *atlephetetlen* ha-
tart a vagyoni kulonbsegek jelentettek. A masik hatar, nehezen, de
azert atlepheto volt: a vallasi szegregacio. Ez viszont letezik egesz
napjainkig. Videken ma is gond,ha valaki mas felekezethez tartozo part
valaszt maganak, vagy ha egy par templomi eskuvo nelkul akar egybekel-
ni.
Ez a kerdes ma is megmergezheti egy olyan csalad belso eletet, amely
vegyes vallasu (pl. katolikus-reformatus), vagy megakadalyozhatja egy
falu egyseget (alveg reformatus, felveg katolikus). Nemzedekeken at-
ivelo gyulolkodesekre talahatunk szep peldakat.

Faji alapu antiszemitizmus Magyarorszagon nem letezett. Ha lett vol-
na, akkor a zsidosagnak zerus eselye lett volna arra,hogy ilyen nagy
tomegekben, ilyen rovuid ido -lenyegeben par evtized-  alatt ilyen
mertekben asszimilalodjon.Ez egyben azt is sejteti, hogy az asszimi-
lalodasuk mogott az all, hogy a magyar tarsadalom keveredest akadalyo-
zo nagy vizvalasztok szamukra viszonylag konnyen atjarhatoak voltak.

Ez a fajta vallasi gyulolkodes nem antiszemitizmus, illetve ha az,
akkor a zsidok is legalabb annyira - ha nem jobban - 'antiszemitak',
mint a lakossag nemzsido resze. Peldanak alljon itt egy vicc, amely
rengeteget elmond errol a kerdesrol:

ifj. Kohn odaall az apja ele:
- apam, megnosulnek !
- es kit akarsz elvenni, fiam ?
- a Belat.
- de hisz' a Bela nem is zsido (goj) !!!!!

Fontos  a vicc teljesebb megertesehez ismerni azt a lenyegtelennek
tuno reszletet, hogy a buzi a magyar tarsadalom toleralhatosag-lis-
taja legaljan, a 'nemember' regioban tanyazik. Megvetett paria, en-
nel melyebbre ferfi nemigen sullyedhet. A viccbeli apa viszont a
'jovendobeli' eltero vallasat ennel is kevesbe toleralhatonak tart-
ja....

Nezzuk meg kozelebbrol a faji alapu antiszemitizmust. Az erdekesseg
kedveert vizsgaljuk faji alapon a magyar tarsadalmat, mondjuk a mult
szazad utolso evtizedeitol, hatha jutunk valahova.

A magyar etnikum -egeszen maig- joreszt videklako. Abban az idoben
az orszag fejletlensegebol es mezogazdasagi voltabol adodoan a ma-
gyar etnikum 90 szazaleka videken elt, foldmuvelessel foglalkozott.
Az orszag politikai elete, allamigazgatasa a foleg magyar etnikumu
nemesseg/dzsentri privat uzlete volt. A varosi polgarsag hagyomanyo-
san nemet etnikumu, de fokozatosan magyarosodo, oveke a nem foldbir-
tok jellegu gazdasagi poziciok java resze. Ezeknek a pozicioknak a
tulajdonlasa szepen viszszavezetheto egeszen a korai kozepkorig,
amikor gyakorlatilag hegemoniaval rendelkeztek. Parszor mar hivat-
koztam a kovetkezore: Az 1900-as evek Budapestjenek tobbsegeben ne-
met nyelvu sajtoja volt, mind a lapok, mind a peldanyszamban jelen-
tosen felulmulva a magyar nyelvu sajtot.

Szerintetek melyik etnikum tarsadalmi pozicioit erintette legerze-
kenyebben a Galiciabol nagy tomegekben bevandorlo,tulnyomoreszt ur-
banus, gazdasagi/uzleti teren nyomulo zsidosag ? Van e kapcsolat a
magyaroszagi nemet nemzetiseg hagyomanyos pozicioinak elvesztese,
es a nemet eredetu nacizmus magyarorszag meghonosodasa kozott ?

Ujsagot emlitettem elobb, hadd fuzzem tovabb a gondolatmenetemet
ezen a vonalon. Ha megkapargatjuk a 30-as evek - vagy akar a mai
liberalis lapok - ujsagiroinak faji hozzatartozasat, valoszinuleg
pont olyan sokatmondo eredmenyre jutunk, mintha atneznenk  faji
alapon a a korabeli naci/fasiszta szervezetek taglistait. Eppen
csak a nemzetisegek kulonboznek.

Egy aktualis a tema: nem veletlen, hogy a magyar neonacizmus goc-
pontja, a skinhead mozgalom a Ferencvarosi Torna Club korul kris-
talyosodik ki. Ennek a II Vh. elotti evtizedekre visszavezeheto
elozmenye van.
Azzal gondolom sokan tisztaban vannak,hogy az FTC-t a vilaghaboru
elott a pesti nemetseg penzelte, a regi nevvaltozataban is fel-
felbukkano, de az azota mar megmagyarositott nevu Franzstadt foci-
csapata volt. Valami rejtelyes okbol kifolyolag az akkori -meg-
jegyzem tiltott- naci mozgalmak ezt a csapatot szemeltek ki beepu-
lesre, ennek a szurkologardajat alakitottak fokozatosan a sajat
kepukre.
Vagy lehet, hogy csak igy alakult, mert a ket populacio - a naciz-
mus magyarorszagi bazisa es a focicsapat szurkoloi kore - jelen-
tos meretu kozoshalmazzal rendelkezett? Egy FTC- MTK meccsnek azo-
ta is melyebb ertelme van, mint  ket egyszeru pesti csapat talal-
kozasanak....

Hajlamosak vagyunk -nem minden ok nelkul- a 19-es bolsevik dikta-
turat a zsidoknak tulajdonitani. Hasonlo mozzanatokra lelunk, ha
a II. Vh rank nezve szegyenletes vagy rosszul vegzodo esemenyei-
nek egy reszet kozelebbrol megvizsgaljuk: Ujvideki meszarlas, a
II- magyar hadsereg pusztulasa, elszabotalt kiugrasi kiserlet...

A haboru elvesztese utan a magyarorszagi nemetseg a ballepeseert
kokemeny arat fizetett. Valoszinuleg nem is azok, akik tehettek
az egeszrol: a kilakoltatas a videki nemetseget erintette elso-
sorban. Sokkal egyszerubb volt ugyanis egy svab falut feltenni
vonatra, mint volksbund taglistakat atbongeszni, vagy egy majd'
ketmillios varosban nemetajkuakra vadaszni. Erdekes, hogy a bun-
tetes is faji alapon zajlott le, nem a bunosoket, hanem a nemze-
tiseget buntettek...Szemet szemert..,Oszovetsegi elvek, mondhat-
nank.
Ezt a dontest, -akar a zsidosag bevagonirozasat es elszallita-
sat-, sem magyarok hoztak, es nem is egy fuggetlen orszag le-
gitim kormany hajtotta vegre, hanem egy megvert, megszallt,gyoz-
tes hatalmak altal igazgatott orszag allamigazgatasi szervei.


Tamas

An American family (two adult couples) is seeking a homestay with a family
in Budapest for a few days in May 1996.  It is their hope that the
homestay will include an opportunity to spend some time with the host
family and that the hosts will direct the family to selected places and
events in the city.  The families are professionals in the fields of hotel
management, and science.  They are not fluent in Hungarian.  Compensation
to the host family will be provided. Please contact ' or
' to arrange for contacts. Thanks.
-- 
> -----------------------------------------|-------/\---/\-------/\--------
2316 Bluff             Tel:(303)449 1706 |      /~~\ /~~\/\ /\/~~\       
Boulder, CO 80303      Fax:(303)442 9125 |     /    \   /  \  \   \       
------------- MOLNAR, Gabor -------------|-University of Colorado, Boulder

Kedves Tamas ! Igen ertekes a cikked ! Remelem folytatod 
elmelkedesed errol a kerdesrol ! Udvozlettel, Gyuri

	Legyen szabad cikkedhez- az asszimilaciot illetoen hozzatenni:
Europaban a legeroteljesebb Assimilacio  ( vegyeshazassagok, kiteresek, a 
jiddisch nyelv nem ismerese-hasznalata) Magyarorszagon es Nemetorszagban 
volt- 1938 - ig ( Nemetorszagban 1933-ig) .
Hangsulyazndo, hogy a kornyezo orszagok zsidoi nagy resze beszelte vagy 
ismerte a jiddisch-t- de nem a varostlako magyar-zsido. Ez ugyan latszoalg 
lenyegtelen-de meg sem az: a jiddisch egy alapvetoen osszekoto nyelv 
zsidok kozott- ami foelg a Biblia es Talmud tanulmanyozasanak eredmenye. A 
magyar zsidosag ( polgari resze) ilyen ismeretekkel altalaban nem 
rendelkezett - nem is tartozott teljes egeszeben a vilagzsidosag egeszebe. 
Ez vonatkozott a haboru elotti nemet zsidok egy reszere is. Ennek 
hatranyait az 1933 utan Israelbe kivandorolt nemet-zsidok ereztek is- 
kelelmetlenul. Gyunynevuk ma is : jeke, ami  a saccoviseles eredmenye 
volt.
Ami a magyar zsidok asszimilasat illeti ez csak ketoldali lehetett- 
amennyiben a varostlako magyarsag  "kivetette" volna magabol az 
asszimilalni akarokat- legyen az akarcsak kiteresben megnyilvanulas- az 
igen gyakori vegyeshazassag- akkor aligha  lett volna kepes - ahogy Te is 
irod ilyen gyors tempoban asszimilalni. Ehhez ket fel kellett !

Attila Balla ) wrote:
: In article >,  
: writes ...
: >
: >In the attention of Panonescu, Wally Keeler, "professor" Bela Liptak
: >
: >
: >
: >From Transilvania's Erdely history:
: >
: >.have you considered the invassion of the Huns magyars in the 5th century ? 
-

	No, I didn't -- for a very simple reason. I took the data from a 
rather compact history book. It was not my intent to give the very 
detailed history of the region, but I willed to bring the attention on 
the main points only, especially since I didn't actually have enough time to 
copy the whole text. I don't remember seing a similar text on the Inet, 
or it would have been simpler for me to just copy&post it. I had, in this 
special case, to do both the translation and the typing.
	In the book I took my data from, this invasion wasn't mentioned. 
That's why I asked in the ending of my original mesage to be 
eventually corrected if I omitted (additional) data, etc.

	Respectfuly yours,
	Vlad
-- 
--

Vlad Romascanu                                      
         '

 (Georg Fischer) wrote:

>"eur.co" > wrote:

>>Who cares how jews suffered,or didn't suffer in Hungary in ww2 
>>or whenever.Sick of this whining.Maybe they should move to 
>>their own country if we are so "antisemitic".Preferbly sooner 
>>than later.

>  I think a lot of  hungarians - honest peoply- cares about Holocaust-
>But  You are exceptionel unhonest. I do not think that all jews
>thinking that Israel is their "own" country. Are You really
>"cultur-hungarian"- or  born outside of Hungary ?

I am a twenty two year old American college student.  I lived in
Hungary for two years and I had a wonderful opportunity to study
Hungary's Jewish history.  The Hungarians, especially the Jews are and
were proud, incredibly intelligent, and unusually good people.  Jews
tend to DO what they believe far more than most Christians.  Don't get
me wrong, I'm Christian, but the majority of "Christians" (i.e.
Catholics, Protastants, and the others) do not "practice their
religion (except for during Easter and Christmas), the Jews on the
other hand have a larger percent in Hungary of "practicing".  There
are naturally exceptions on both sides.

If for no other reason than mearly being Human, we should ALL care
what happened to the Jews, in Hungary, Germany, Jerusalem, or
whatever.  They were visciously treated in a number of countries.
That was WRONG in a way that cannot be described in words.

The Hungarians DO care about what happened during the Holocaust.  I
have a tremendous respect for the caring ability of the Hungarian
people, Jewish, Christian, or Athiest.  Hungarians are INCREDIBLE
people with one of the richest and most prfound histories this world
has ever had the pleasure of seeing!!

We MUST learn from what happened in WWII, but I fear the world isn't
learning, but by golldy we're going to try our darnest!

Krisztian Balogh ) wrote:
: 
: M Cristian, 
: 
: Ok, Erdely (Transylvania) belongs to Magyarorszag (Hungary), 
: or Magyarorszag belongs to Erdely, but WITHOUT romania!!!!!!
: 
: The problem is that there are "those so called politicians" in 
: romania who still go about ways of treating us Magyars just like
: causescu did when he was in power. Take a look at iliescu for 
: example. He does not even think about wanting to call peace between
: the two countries... That's ok, we will still get ERDELY sooner or 
: later. It might be a "stupid" statement, but its true!
: 
	Just as stupid as the author of the statement in question.

	Who are 'we' ? Is mr Krisztian 'we' ? It seems so, if one were to 
believe him.

	HERE IS the typical example of the extremist. He barks with 
anger, hoping/believing that noise has more credit than history. No, mr. 
Krisztian, noise only shows, REVEALS the personality -- if any -- that 
lies beneath one's phisical appearance.

	Of course, you believed that by deliberatly writing Romania, 
Ceausescu, Iliescu, etc with SMALL letters, while everything else (not 
related to Romania as you see it: Romania-Ardeal) was written correctly, 
with capitals, you'd completely CRUSH under your anger and convictions 
all the Romanians.

	SURPRISE, mister. You didn't. You only CRUSHED your REPUTATION
(if any existed before...), and shown the whole Romanian and Magyar 
community a typical example of an extremist, extremists whoa are and 
always were the source of almost all conflicts in this world of ours.

	Yes, mister, show everybody how strongly you believe Transilvania 
will be THINE ! And hope they will yell with you at unison. FALSE HOPES, 
may I say.

	Good luck, mr. Extremist.
-- 
--

Vlad Romascanu                                      
         '

Does anyone have an email address for the Budapest University of Economic 
Sciences?  My friend and I would like to study there for a semester, and we 
need to get the information and applications for english speaking students.

Thanx

Edward P. Dittmer

I am doing a survey for a class project, please help by replying me email (to:
) before Nov. 30 (so that I can prepare the report
before the finals). Thanks in advance for your help.

At the end, I will post/reply you the survey result (if I have succeeded)
or a "wav" file of my own voice of "thank you", if I could not get enough
responses.

Cultural background has a strong influence on the understanding/employing
of science.  It could have some effects on the evolution of sciences.  For
example, people figured out lunar calendar to determine a day for praying
the gods.  On the other side of Himalaya, it is believed that frequent
requirement of land measurement due to flood in Ganga/Ganges River area
spurred the development of geometry and arithmetics.

So the survey items are:
	1.  What's your definition of science;
	2.  What's your nationality (cultural background) and religion;
	3.  What scientific fields, were/are advanced in your culture;
	4.  In your opinion, why the development in that scientific field
	    in your cultural background was encouraged/discouraged.

Thank you very much for your attention.

Ning