Joe Szalai wrote:

>                    Words and ideas are failing us.
>
> Joe Szalai

Yes, Joe, we have noticed. And you are doing a good job at it too.

                                                               Amos

It is interesting to read this debate about Hitler. First, I would like to
make clear my opinion, I do not think Hitler and his party was christian and
socialist (in the meaning of social-democrat). He might have used some terms
and phrase of them but it was pure demagogy. However I do think that the nazism
and the stalinism has a lot in common and actually fell in the same category.
I guess most of us agree with the above.

The funny thing in this debate is the way how E.Durant and J.Szalai handled
the 'threat on socialism' (i.e Hitler the socialist). They came out with the
idea of 'Hitler the christian' (i.e threat on christianity). Why do they think
if they prove that the christianity got dirty in this issue that would clean
up the socialism? Or maybe they want a deal only, we don't talk about this and
in exchange you don't talk about that?
Also, this counter-offensive gives them back the initiative. It is easier to
attack something than to defend. (However it is not a surprising move from
peoples with communistic ideas, the only thing they can do is attack other
ideas. They feel very inconvinient when they have to show something
 constructive.
Just as a reminder, E.Durant recently admitted that she had no solution, she
 only
wanted us to think!)

Finally I would have some questions to Eva to chew on. First, why Hitler's part
y
 was called
NSDAP, 'national socialist party'. As far as I know the word 'christian' does
not even appear in the name. Don't you think this would mean that the
 'socialistic
demagogy' was more important for the party than the 'christian' one?
Most of us probably know what was the 'night of the long knives', i.e when
 Hitler
got rid of the SA and Rohm. As far as I know he had to do so, because Rohm and 
a
lot of SA-member took to seriously the 'anticapitalist demagogy' of the NSDAP.
 Hitler
needed the support of the big companies by that time and no longer the socialis
t
features of his party. This just show how rootless and cynical he was.

J.Zs

Oups! I forgot the main point of my last question. So it seems there were a
lots of member of the NSDAP with 'anticapitalistic' ideas, Hitler had to get
rid of them. But as far as I know there was no 'christian' problem in the party
.
So does it imply that the 'socialistic demagogy' was more important than the
xtian one?

J.Zs

At 6:21 PM -0400 6/24/97, E.S. Balogh wrote:
>        Dear Eva Durant,
>
>        I don't care how many quotations you have fished out of Mein Kampf
>which happens to mention the Almighty God, but national socialism and
>Hitler's Germany was against the churches.
>
>        ESB

I believe both Evas are correct. Hitler did declare himself Christian and
Catholic in order to obtain the support of the Christian masses. He also
managed to bring under his control certain Protestant churches. On the
other hand he crushed any Christian church and lay opposition to his regime
and encouraged the SS in its old-German paganistic and anti-Christian
practises and in the formation of an anti-Christian ideology. There is, of
course a contradiction here between propaganda and practice, just like
there is contradiction between his "socialism" and socialism as it was
always understood by the European left.

Peter I. Hidas
Montreal

Dear friends,

I have attached the declaration of the Hungarian Lobby to the support
the Romanian NATO integration including the list with the names
of those who signed it.

Thank you very much to all of you!

Best wishes
Peter Orban

*********************************************************************

To:                                         June 6th,1997
     Diaspora Romana,
     806 E.Carson Street#118-109
     Carson,CA 90745
     Phone:(310)549-0547
     Fax:  (310)549-6231
     E-mail: 


   Members of the Hungarian Lobby are deeply interested in the
future of East-Central Europe, and recognize the need for simultaneous
integration of the countries of the region into NATO. This would
stabilize the whole region and assure the orderly transition toward
democracy and market economy, without the turmoil seen in the former
Yugoslavia.

Romania, a country of 23 milion people, with affinity toward western
culture, at the same time represents the best potential base of
stability in the Balkans.

Romania's ongoing political democratization and reorganization of all
central and local governmental institutions, the inclusion of the
large Hungarian minority in the government, and the expected
subsequent satisfaction of legitimate minority claims are -- and may
become -- positive examples for the countries of the region.

A look at the map of Europe shows Romania to be the gateway to the
East. Only through this gateway will it be possible to access the
heart of Europe, and the key that will allow this gateway to stay open
-- and to defend it effectively at the same time -- is NATO membership
for Romania.

With an important economic potential due to a large and fertile
agricultural area, her metallurgical and defense industries ready to
produce for her allies, possessing the biggest maritime port in
Eastern Europe, with a multiethnic population and large urban
comunities, Romania is just as much an important future partner and
ally of the European Community and of NATO as are Poland, the Czech
Republic, and Hungary.

For all the above considerations, members of the Hungarian Lobby,who
during the last six months learned, along the the members of Diaspora
Romana, to cooperate in promoting the cause of democratic
transformation oin Eastern-Central Europe,support  the inclusion of
Romania, along with Hungary, the Czech Republic and Poland, among the
first group of countries to be integrated into NATO.

   Members of the Hungarian Lobby :

Fulop Almos
Str.Culmei Nr 10 Ap 4
Csikszereda 4100
Hargita
Romania

Zsigmond Biro
#200-6005-103 Street,
Edmonton, Alberta
T6H 2H3
CANADA

Istvan CSUTAK, former MP,
director of County Cultural Center in M-Ciuc
str. Pict. Nagy Imre Nr. 45
4100 Miercurea - Ciuc
ROMANIA

Geza Fulop, Ph.D.
Rua das Carpas 76
04648-020 Sao Paulo
Brasil

Everett D. Glover Ph.D. Retired Professor
23 Sherman Terrace #3
Madison, WI 53704
USA

Greta Glover
1004 E. Dayton St.
Madison, WI 53703
USA

Madeleine Glover, M.A., M.S.
President/CEO
Hunport, Inc.
1008 Yale Road
Madison, WI 53705
USA

Michael L Glover, M.A.
Director, MIT Insurance Dept.
8 Myrtle St. #3
Jamaica Plain, MA 02130
USA

Dr. George Jalsovszky
Senior Research Associate,
Hungarian Academy of Sciences
Egri J. u. 40
H-1111 Budapest
Hungary

Dr. Ildiko Jalsovszky
Attorney at Law, Patent Agent
Egri J. u. 40
H-1111 Budapest
Hungary

Géza Jeszenszky, MP, Foreign Affairs spokesman,
Minister for Foreign Affairs, 1990-1994
1357 Budapest, Orszaghaz, HUNGARY

Dr. Gyorgy Kadar, physicist
1028 Budapest, Szilagyi E. utca 4
Tel/fax: (+361) 176 8657
E-mail: 

Karoly KIRALY, former senator, former vice president of Romania in
1990, between 1972 - 1989 disident against Ceausescu's comunist regime
str. Banki Donath 40 3000 Sf. - Gheorghe ROMANIA

Arpad F. Kovacs
2101 Belvedere Blvd #1
Silver Spring, MD  20902

Anna Kovalszki
U of M, LSA College
Ann Arbor,MI, USA


Katalin Kovalszki
U of M, LSA College
Ann Arbor,MI,USA


Peter Kovalszki,M.D
IMA-PC
Mt.Clemens,MI,USA


Istvan Lippai
5917 West 74th Place
Westminster, Colorado 80003
USA

Maria Lippai
5917 West 74th Place
Westminster, Colorado 80003
USA

Bela G. Liptak
Adjunct Professor at Yale University
Stamford, CT. USA

Peter I. Orban
Maxstr. 7, 52070 Aachen
Germany

Szilvia Orban
Maxstr. 7, 52070 Aachen
Germany

Maria Repolski,M.D.
HFHS
Sterling Heights, MI,USA


Balazs Revffy

Budapest, Hungary
1119 Alsokubin u. 7.

Dr. Gotthard Saghi-Szabo
Washington, D.C.
USA

Geza SZOCS poet, former senator
str. Cismigiu Nr.1
3400 Cluj
ROMANIA

A.J. Vadasz
5743 Pignut Mtn. Dr.
Warrenton VA 20187
USA T:540 349 1408

Dr. Imre Vago, assistant professor
H-4015 Debrecen, PO. Box 36. Hungary
E-mail: 

George B. Waginger
1900 John F. Kennedy Boulevard
Philadelphia, PA 19103-1428
United States of America

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:      normal

Background:
  A new success for the Hungarian Lobby: According to an announcement
of Al Gore and Madeleine Albright the new foreign policy of the US
government will deal with the protection of natural treasures all over
the World. This policy is regarded as an integral part of national
security.
  The result of this new foreign policy is that the USA will open 12
regional offices in the 12 environmentally most endangered areas in
the World. Thus, our next goal is to reach that one of these offices
will establish in Gyor (Northwest of Hungary). This step would show
the American care for the Danube to the whole World.

What to do:
  Please help to persuade the Clinton, Gore and Albright to open one
of the planned offices in Gyor. Feel free to use the attached form
letters.
   IT IS IMPORTANT THAT THE POLITICIANS FIND THOUSANDS OF LETTERS IN
THEIR MAILBOX. PLEASE ACT!! Please SEND EVEN SNAIL MAILS. These are
more effective.

e-mail address of President Clinton:


e-mail of Vice President Gore:


e-mail of the Secretary of State Albright:


*************************************************************
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter to Clinton:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

The Honorable Bill Clinton
President of the United States
The White House
Washington, D.C. 20001
(e-mail: )

RE: Establishment of environmental office in Gyor (Hungary)

Dear Mr. President:

Please consider the city of Gyor in Hungary, as one of the 12 new
regional environmental hubs to be established by the State Department.
This would show your interest in the survival of the natural treasures
of the Szigetkoz wetlands, which evolved from Europe's only inland
sea-delta and survived since the last Ice Age.

The Szigetkoz Wetlands are endangered since Slovakia illegally
diverted the Danube river, depriving Hungary of her natural resource.
The result is devastating environmental damage.

Respectfully yours,

<Your name, address, title>



xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter to Gore:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

The Honorable Al Gore
Vice President of the United States
The White House
Washington, D.C. 20001
(e-mail: )

RE: Establishment of environmental office in Gyor (Hungary)

Dear Mr. Vice President:

Please consider the city of Gyor in Hungary, as one of the 12 new
regional environmental hubs to be established by the State Department.
This would show your interest in the survival of the natural treasures
of the Szigetkoz wetlands, which evolved from Europe's only inland
sea-delta and survived since the last Ice Age.

The Szigetkoz Wetlands are endangered since Slovakia illegally
diverted the Danube river, depriving Hungary of her natural resource.
The result is devastating environmental damage.

Respectfully yours,

<Your name, address, title>


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter to Albright:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

The Honorable Madeleine Albright
United States Secretary of State
United States Department of State
Washington, DC 20520
( E-Mail:  )

RE: Establishment of environmental office in Gyor (Hungary)

Dear Madame Secretary:

Please consider the city of Gyor in Hungary, as one of the 12 new
regional environmental hubs to be established by the State Department.
This would show your interest in the survival of the natural treasures
of the Szigetkoz wetlands, which evolved from Europe's only inland
sea-delta and survived since the last Ice Age.

The Szigetkoz Wetlands are endangered since Slovakia illegally
diverted the Danube river, depriving Hungary of her natural resource.
The result is devastating environmental damage.

Respectfully yours,

<Your name, address, title>

---------------------
Forwarded message:
From:    (external Lixandru Robert)
To:     
Date: 97-06-25 11:29:45 EDT


                Tisztelt Liptak Bela ur,

        A nagyenyedi  Bethlen Gabor Kollegium 1997. oktobereben unnepli 
fennallasanak 375. evfordulojat. Az evszazadok folyaman az intezmeny 
mindig a Karpat-medence tanintezeteinek az elvonalaban allt, es toretlen 
hittel szolgalta azt a missziot, amelyet az alapito fejedelem, Bethlen 
Gabor tunderkertjeben hivatasaul jelolt meg, bizott rea. Apaczai Csere 
Janos, Bethlen Miklos, Papai Pariz Ferenc, Totfalusi Kis Miklos, Bod 
Peter, Ajtai Abod Mihaly, Koteles Samuel, Korosi Csoma Sandor, Szasz 
Karoly, Kemeny Zsigmond es meg annyi "fenyes elme" iskolaja mindig a 
magas szintu tudomanyossag, igaz emberseg, hu europaisag iskolaja volt.
        Az "enyedi koho" szazadokon at ontotta magabol a kepzett ifjakat a 
legeldugottabb mezosegi vagy szekelyfoldi iskolak, reformatus parokiak 
fele, de a leghiresebb europai es Oceanon tuli varosok fele is, hogy 
fiai tudasbol, igenyessegbol es embersegbol peldat mutassanak ott, ahol 
rajuk epp szukseg volt. Az erdelyi reformatus kollegiumok kozt sokaig a 
legkivalobbak kozt tartottak szamon az egyetemes reformatussag koreben. 
Igy epult be Nagyenyed Europaba es a vilagba "Orhegy tovetol messze 
Dardzsilingig."
        A tortenelem viharai gyakran megtepaztak, foldig romboltak az osi alma˙
 0
matert, de hamvaibol mindig ujjaeledt, a soha ki nem alvo szikra 
fellobbantotta a langot, mely szakadatlanul egett, neha pislakolva, 
legtobbszor messze vilagitva, mindig egve, mindig melegitve.
        A XX. szazad zivataros evtizedei azonban minden addigiel tobbet 
pusztitottak: megfosztottak hatalmas vagyonatol, a fejedelmi 
fundaciotol, nyilvanossagi jogatol, kalvinista jellegetol, sot reszben 
nemzeti jellegetol is. A kollegiumot 1662-ben magahoz olelo Nagyenyedet 
szorvannya tettek, eljelentektelenitettek. Az uralmon levo hatalom e 
gyaszos evtizedeiben kiszolgaltatott helyzetbe kerult az egykor viragzo, 
onellato intezmeny, az atlag ipari liceumok szintjere sullyesztettek, 
megturtkent, "szukseges rossz"-kent kellett mentenie magat.Ezert nehez 
most az osi falak kozt kibontakozni, talpra allni es meroben uj 
korulmenyek kozt ismet az elvonalba kerulni.
        A 375. evfordulos unneples jo lehetoseg kell hogy legyen a 
seregszemlere, eroink, lehetosegeink felmeresere, feladataink 
kijelolesere. A roppant nagy felelossegu munka felteteleit csak 
osszefogassal, kozos akarattal, szellemi es anyagi aldozatok aran leh
et megvalositani.
        Az 1989-es fordulat uj lehetosegeket biztositott a kibontakozashoz: az˙
 0
intezmeny visszakapta elmeleti jelleget, a tanito- es ovonokepzot, 
reformatus egyhazi tagozattal bovult, melynek elso vegzettjei az elozo 
iskolai evben leptek at az iskola kuszobet. De ez meg csak a kezdet. Az 
igazi attores meg varat magara. Ehhez a sikeres attoreshez kerjuk az 
Onok megerto, nagylelku tamogatasat, ahhoz hogy a kopott, malladozo 
falak kozt is meltokeppen tudjuk megunnepelni a 375. evfordulot, mely, 
hisszuk, az az erdelyi magyar nyelvu oktatas nagy seregszemleje lesz.Az 
adomanyokat a kovetkezo szamlakra fogadjuk (vagy szemelyesen a Kollegium 
penztaranal) : TREZORERIA AIUD Nr. 5007014613601 -judetul Alba, Liceul 
teoretic Bethlen Gabor, cont USD-472111600340 - Banca Comer
ciala Romƒna, filiala Aiud str. Transilvaniei Bl. A13, 3325 Aiud, jud. 
Alba. 
        Bizunk abban, hogy Bethlen Gabor legnagyobb es leghosszabb ideig 
fennmarado muve, Kollegiuma, atveszeli  e nehez idoszakot is es "elet, 
feltamadas es orok diadal" lesz az aldozatkesz munka gyumolcse.
        Bethlen Gabor bibliai jelmondatat mi, maiak is magunkenak valljuk: "Ha˙
 0
az Isten velunk, kicsoda ellenunk?". Bizunk Isten segitsegeben szent 
celunk megvalositasaban.                  
 

                                        Kivalo tisztelettel    , 
                                        Krizbai Jeno igazgato.
                                        Nagyenyed, 1997 junius  25.

---------------------
Forwarded message:
From:    (Dani László)
Reply-to:       
To:     
Date: 97-06-25 11:31:50 EDT

    Tisztelt Uram!

 Az Egyetemi Fokú Protestáns Teológiai Intézet (Kolozsvár, Avram Iancu
tér 13) IV.éves hallgatóinak nevében nyújtjuk be támogatási kérésünket.
 Az ószövetségi bibliai szeminárium keretében 1998 nyarán tanulmányi
útra megyünk Izráelbe. Tudatában vagyunk annak, hogy ismereteinket
azokon a helyeken tudjuk elmélyíteni, ahol a bibliai események
történtek. Útvonalunk a következő: Tel Aviv - Jeruzsálem - Betlehem -
Maszada - Tibériás - Názáret - Kármel - Tel Aviv. Csoportunk 35 tagú,
amelyet D.dr.Kozma Zsolt professzor vezet, aki 1995-ben volt két hetes
tanulmányi úton Izráelben.
 Tervünk készen van, de anyagi lehetőségeink csekélyek. Ezért kérjük az
Önök támogatását erre az útra.
 Az összeget kérjük a Teológiai Intézet bankszámlájára átutalni: Banca
Comerciala Romana, sucursala jud.Cluj, 45105382.

     A IV.évfolyam nevében tisztelettel:
         Papp Hunor - évf.felelős hallgató

http://proteo.soroscj.ro

A kérést támogatjuk:

D.dr.Geréb Zsolt
    rektor

D.dr.Kozma Zsolt
évf.vezető prof.

Dear Colleagues,

The attached report once again demonstrates that Hungary is not yet an open
society and that the state security agency is still leading some cover ups.

About a year ago, we (Petrovay, Steitz, Szekeres and I) have asked the
Constitutional Court to accept us as "class representatives" in a class
action suit for the opening of the III/II files. To date nothing happened.

I would appreciate advice from any of you on how we might proceed on this
(without hurting the "good name" of Hungary by publicizing this outrage) and
yet
achieving our goal of opening up the secret files (which have already been
opened in Germany and in the Czech Republic).

Best regards: Bela Liptak

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
ATTACHMENT
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

HUNGARY WITHHOLDS FILES ON TERRORIST. A Hungarian prosecutor said on 23 June
that secret documents wanted by Germany for the trial of an accomplice of
"Carlos the Jackal" are being withheld for security reasons, "Magyar Hirlap"
reported. He said that handing over the documents would violate
"foreign-political and national-security interests of Hungary." A Berlin
court
wants the files for the upcoming trial of Johannes Weinrich. They contain
some
8,500 pages about Carlos and members of his gang who lived in Budapest
between
1979 and 1985. A hostage-taking at the OPEC meeting in Vienna in 1975 was
among the most publicized actions undertaken by the group. The German
magazine
"Der Spiegel" claims that the Hungarian government is trying to conceal the
former communist leadership's connections with international terrorist
groups.

He was against most organised religion - especially those few brave
ones who stood up against him. But he considered
himself xtian - one of god's chosen people...
whether you like it or not.
He was at least as "xtian" than "socialist",
please draw the obvious conclusion.
Eva D

>
>         I don't care how many quotations you have fished out of Mein Kampf
> which happens to mention the Almighty God, but national socialism and
> Hitler's Germany was against the churches.
>
>         ESB
>
>

> Status:
>
> It is interesting to read this debate about Hitler. First, I would like to
> make clear my opinion, I do not think Hitler and his party was christian and
> socialist (in the meaning of social-democrat). He might have used some terms
> and phrase of them but it was pure demagogy. However I do think that the
 nazism
> and the stalinism has a lot in common and actually fell in the same category.
> I guess most of us agree with the above.
>

Yes, both were totalitarian, grossly anti-democratic.  One was based
and produced by capitalism - proving, that it is not immune from
anti-democratic regimes.   The other was based on a premature
deformed  anti-capitalist system.

> The funny thing in this debate is the way how E.Durant and J.Szalai handled
> the 'threat on socialism' (i.e Hitler the socialist). They came out with the
> idea of 'Hitler the christian' (i.e threat on christianity). Why do they thin
k
> if they prove that the christianity got dirty in this issue that would clean
> up the socialism? Or maybe they want a deal only, we don't talk about this an
d
> in exchange you don't talk about that?

We didn't start this thread "Hitler was socialist so socialism is
bad"  We only  pointed out, that the same argument would
make out xtianity bad, too. Ergo, the statement is valid for both or
for none. I suggest the later.

> Also, this counter-offensive gives them back the initiative. It is easier to
> attack something than to defend.

Socialism was attacked in this instance in a fairly dirty way. In the defence o
f
capitalism.


> Just as a reminder, E.Durant recently admitted that she had no solution, she
>  only
> wanted us to think!)
>

No, wrong again. I indicated, that you are free to come to your own
conclusion once you are aware of the problems. I have firmish opinion
on the solution, and I spelled it out very often indeed.


> Finally I would have some questions to Eva to chew on. First, why Hitler's
 party
>  was called
> NSDAP, 'national socialist party'. As far as I know the word 'christian' does
> not even appear in the name. Don't you think this would mean that the
>  'socialistic
> demagogy' was more important for the party than the 'christian' one?

Being called a socialist certainly had more positive propaganda
effect than being called a xtian. Hitler was good at propaganda.


> J.Zs
>

At 11:25 AM 6/24/97 -0400, Eva Balogh wrote:

>At 08:36 AM 6/24/97 -0400, Barnabas Bozoki wrote:
>
>>Don't feel bad Joe, "real people" left this list long time ago because
>>they can't stand the tiresome insults from Eva Balogh.
>
>        Why didn't you leave also? ESB

Eva Balogh hasn't noticed how infrequently Barna Bozoki posts to this list.
 Has she ever wondered why?

Joe Szalai

At 06:21 PM 6/24/97 -0400, Eva Balogh wrote:

>        Dear Eva Durant,
>
>        I don't care how many quotations you have fished out of Mein Kampf
>which happens to mention the Almighty God, but national socialism and
>Hitler's Germany was against the churches.
>
>        ESB

Really?  Then why did the churches fare so much better than synagogues in
the Third Reich?  Eva Balogh's attitude on this issue belongs to the school
of thought that says, "I've made up my mind.  Please don't confuse me with
facts."  And this is odd, because she usually maintains that we must face
the past honestly.  So, if she wants people on the political left to take
ownership of Hitler's "socialism", then for god's sake, she'll have to take
ownership of his Christianity.  Or, she should be more careful with her
accusations and insults.  Perhaps a good, old fashioned, Hungarian
"pofoza's" might settle things.  Words and ideas are failing us.

Joe Szalai

At 10:22 PM 6/25/97 +0200, "Miklos K. Hoffmann" wrote:

>Amos J. Danube wrote:
>>
>> Joe Szalai wrote:
>>
>> >                    Words and ideas are failing us.
>> >
>> > Joe Szalai
>>
>> Yes, Joe, we have noticed. And you are doing a good job at it too.
>>
>>                                                                Amos
>Amen.
>Miklos

Last week I called Ferenc Novak this list's Master Debater.  Now, I'd like
to take it back.  With the above tiny, perfect, and retentive ejaculation,
similar to the ones he usually emits, it's now very clear to me that Miklos
Hoffmann is this lists MasterDebater.  Sorry, Ferenc.

Joe Szalai

At 07:19 AM 6/25/97 -0400, you wrote:
>At 06:21 PM 6/24/97 -0400, Eva Balogh wrote:
>
>>        Dear Eva Durant,
>>
>>        I don't care how many quotations you have fished out of Mein Kampf
>>which happens to mention the Almighty God, but national socialism and
>>Hitler's Germany was against the churches.
>>
>>        ESB
>
>Really?  Then why did the churches fare so much better than synagogues in
>the Third Reich?  Eva Balogh's attitude on this issue belongs to the school
>of thought that says, "I've made up my mind.  Please don't confuse me with
>facts."  And this is odd, because she usually maintains that we must face
>the past honestly.  So, if she wants people on the political left to take
>ownership of Hitler's "socialism", then for god's sake, she'll have to take
>ownership of his Christianity.  Or, she should be more careful with her
>accusations and insults.  Perhaps a good, old fashioned, Hungarian
>"pofoza's" might settle things.  Words and ideas are failing us.
>
>Joe Szalai
>
>

Joe makes an interesting point, but I think it was not the synagogues per
se but rather the Jewish people who were dealt with a murderous hand, while
there was no systematic genocide applied to Christians by the Nazis, hence
the churches suffered less damage.

Nevertheless, Eva B. is right in that Hitler was against all religions.
Any philosophy or organisation other than his own National Socialist Party
was viewed as a threat.  Sadly, it is also true that the Christian Churches
did far too little to resist or to protest the systematic elimination of
their fellow citizens, be they Jewish or Romany or even resisting Christians.

regards from New York

Charlie Vamossy

Joe Szalai wrote:
>
> At 10:50 PM 6/24/97 GMT, Eva Durant wrote:
>
> >Eva B. called me or Joe stupid, as we suggested, that
> >Hitler called himself a christian.  It is my dismal duty
> >to inform her - she is wrong - again.
> >So - if you call him socialist, you have to call him
> >a christian, too, I'm afraid.
> >(I have to spell it out these days, for the sake of some.)
> >
> >
> >"I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator.
> > By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work."
> >           [Adolph Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936]
>
> Etc., etc., etc., etc..
>
> Good one, Eva!  Unfortunately, I don't think Eva Balogh will recant.
>
> Also, I don't know why she thinks that you and I are stupid.  Our ideas are
> different from her's, but surely, that doesn't make us stupid.
>
> Joe Szalai
Surely. Just for the sake of a finger excercise in logics : if you were
stupid, you could have been perfectly stupid BEFORE Eva called you that
or even before she turned up on you screen as e-mail.

In order to avoid further mudding : Joe, Eva D., I don4t know whether
you are, or not.

Hi everybody,
I am back again in this awkward game! Funnily, I didn4t even miss it
after a couple of days. Are you sure, you are all no addicts? I hope you
are all fine, you all enjoy yourselves and are full of tolerance,
respect for your neighbours and etcetera
Take care!
Miklos

Amos J. Danube wrote:
>
> Joe Szalai wrote:
>
> >                    Words and ideas are failing us.
> >
> > Joe Szalai
>
> Yes, Joe, we have noticed. And you are doing a good job at it too.
>
>                                                                Amos
Amen.
Miklos

Dear Janos,

        I agree with almost everything you are saying concerning the debate
over Hitler. The very idea that there may be some similarities between the
extreme right and the extreme left was so repugnant to our extreme
left-wingers that they immediately changed the topic and launched a
counterattack. Unfortunately, the duo doesn't know much about nazism and the
Third Reich and thus meaningful discussion cannot really take place. This
situation is somewhat similar to Joe Szalai's wrong usage of the word
"corporatism" not terribly long time ago. A discussion when one side knows
nothing about the topic reminds me of fencing. You can be Ilona Elek and you
may not be able to win against someone who has a foil in her hand the first
time in her life. That person, being ignorant of the "rules of the game,"
will simply use the foil in such a way that a person with some knowledge of
the game will be defenseless. That's how it is when Eva Durant talks about
Hitler, the Christian. We are left speechless because we simply don't think
in those terms, because we cannot think in those terms, because those terms
are inappropriate. So, we stand there wide-eyed, shaking our heads.
        There is one thing I would like to expand a little because I don't
think that I managed to express myself properly: demagoguery. The more I
think about the two ideologies the more I think that the only difference
between them (besides the obvious internationalism versus nationalism) that
Marxism was a great deal more sophisticated. Marx and his followers managed
to construct a  pseudo-scientific explanation and justification for
dictatorship. Hitler didn't have such a sophisticated ideology in his
arsenal. But does this mean that Hitler didn't mean his particular vision of
the world and Lenin did? I am not sure.
        ESB