> Felado :  [Canada]
>
> >and the Bank of England being a pawn of the government
>
> You say this with a certain amount of disdain.  Why?  Do you not like
> government elected by the people making economic decisions?  Who should the
> Bank of England be a pawn of, if not the government?  After all, doesn't the
> government just accommodate the wishes of the moneyed classes?
Government to a large extent accommodates the wishes of the moneyed classes,
I'd say to a considerably larger extent that it should, but others will no
doubt disagree. Be it as it may, I don't want the government to have a large
budget with a large deficit and the authority to print money. To the extent
that the deficit puts a burden on future generations, it is taxation without
representation and as such it should be avoided, quite independent of whether
we have future generations of "the moneyed classes" or future generations of
the general population in mind. So to have the power of the government to run
a deficit checked and balanced by an independent Federal Reserve is a very
sound idea.

As for your larger question, whether I like government elected by the people
making economic decisions, the brief answer is no. Government elected by the
people, put in place by the senior officers in the army, imposed by an outside
power, emerging as the victorious faction in a civil war, and in general any
government coming from any source whatsoever has to be divested of as much
power as possible. Some core functions should of course remain, providing for
the common defense, insuring domestic tranquility, that sort of thing. But
making economic decisions is not among these core functions -- promoting the
general welfare is, and it is abundantly clear that the more the government
messes with the economy the more the general welfare suffers.

The Bank of England actually provided a rather striking example of this when
they started to dabble in foreign exchange speculation. They of course called
it "Defending the Pound" and ended up losing billions of their taxpayers
money, money they shouldn't have gambled with in the first place. Just because
Greg Lamont was elected by the people (or at least answered to politicians so
elected) there is no reason to believe that he understands the forex business
half as well as George Soros (who walked away with a fair chunk of these
billions) understands it.  The point is that people can't democratically elect
a "Strong Pound" or "Franc Fort" just as they can't vote to have less rain
next year. Actually, they can vote whatever they want, they can even legislate
\pi to be 3. But in such cases something has to give, and the taxpayer
usually ends up being the one.

> Don't worry about not having any qualifications in economics, Andras.  I'm
> enough of a democrat (perhaps unwisely) to welcome all opinions and comments.
Why thank you! It is awfully nice of you to let me have my say. Gee, and to
imagine you could actually demand qualifications, but you are magnanimous
enough to refrain from actually doing so, contenting yourself by merely
pointing out that I don't have any, isn't that really something.

Andra1s Kornai

Hi,

If you live in switzerland or Canada, (my two dream places in all the
world) write to me, the Hungarian, Australian....

Thanks


Gabor
--
Mr Gabor Kollo, , First Year Student

I am a thirteen year old girl who lives in Vancouver, British Columbia
Canada. My Dad never talks to me in hungarian (may be becouse my Mom
does not speak Hungarian)
but I realy like to hear from other Hungarian girls who speak the langauge
It does not matter if you live in Hungary or other country as long as I
can see and read Hungarian. I could ask my Dad to help me.
Any one out there with the same interest?

Dear people of <bit.listserv.hungary>:

A fiend of mine who does not have access to the Internet, has asked me
to make a general inquiry about life in Hungary today.  It is many
years since my friend was in Hungary.  The basis of the inquiry is to
prepare for a kind of self directed vacation there.

We would ask only that the information any of you, who are
knowledgeable about modern day Hungary, be unbiased.  That is, not
simple chamber of commerce style boosterism on one hand or an obvious
cynical diatribe on the other.  In short, a tell-it-like-it-is
observation.

I know this sounds like an immense undertaking, but please, we are not
looking for a book.  Short descriptions of the current political
structure, employment and unemployment, law enforcement and crime,
education, arts, land tenure, accommodation for travelers, general
attitudes toward visitors etc., and anything else you might think
interesting would be in order.  After that, I hope it will be possible
to follow up on specific items if that is necessary.

Your attention to this request is appreciated.

Edwin in Saskatchewan, Canada.

>

>
> No Hungarian content but (I think) useful:
>
> Having undergone (and still suffering from the after-effects of)
> kidney-stone pains and then lithotripsy treatment, I learned a lot about
> them. Among other things I learned that green peppers are a major source of
> oxalate, the major component in the most frequent form of kidney-stone.
>
> My advice: take it easy with the pepper consumption, it is not worth it.
>
> Gabor D. Farkas


But what green peppers have to do with paprika?
The former has thick bitter skin, making it undesirable
as a sandwich component. However the white/yellow
even if it is called "zoldpaprika" (why is zoldbab called
that, when in Hungary that is also white/yellow?)
is just best with a ham/cheese or teliszalami buttie.
Eva Durant

The relavant HVG issue has no mention at all
on any racist remark at the conference, even
though Szabad's proposal was included.
In the interview with the new vice-president
of the Lezsak-fraction the reporter asked
if the apology - as mentioned by a correspondent here -
happened, he sai, it did not. (I can't remember his name.)
So in this case it seems, perhaps there was no racism.
I did not find any "live" proof of it when I was in Hungary
last, however, there were plenty graffitis and tales of
contaminated media.
Eva Durant

> If people in developed, western nations, give up hopes that
> leadership, enlightened or otherwise, can make a difference, then we may be
> in for a decline.  Just look at the low voter turnout in many elections.
> That's just one of the many social costs of "free" markets.  The economic
> costs will have to be tabulated later, after the fall.
>
>

I think people should start to look for policies and not
"style of leadership" which usually boils down who is
more "lovable" on the tv screens.
If people are disenchanted, the reason is that there
are no actual differences in what governments do,
but they also say the same things - what their
market-research teams told the they should say.

None of them offer any new strategies to solve
the immense problems of the variously "developed" worlds,
and that what their job supposed to be.  At most
they dig up some old ideas, that failed before in more
advantageous circumstances (less govt control/more
govt. control, integration/competition, strong currency/
weak currency - they all and up being "bad" for the economy
eventually, and even if the economy is pronounced "healthy"
wages  are worth less.)

What they are professional about is: lying. The best are
the tories. Making people belive that they actually pay less tax,
when VAT doubled, local taxes tripled and NHS contributions
doubled... services shrivelled... need I go on...
The Hungarians have a lot to learn from these mature democracies...
Eva Durant

At 03:38 PM 3/20/96 GMT, you wrote:
>Hi.  I don't speak any Hungarian but I too have deep roots there.  My
>mother's entire family(Edenhoffer) is from Pecs, and my brother is
>currently studying there.
>
>I am a first year student at the University of Texas at Austin.
>Here's my e-mail address:
>                                         mbachers @mail.utexas.edu
>
        The Edenhoffter family is a very old Pecs family indeed.

        Eva Balogh, also from Pecs

I just received the March 12 issue of *168 Ora," a Hungarian weekly.
In it there is a longish article by Attila Bujak and Laszlo Bartus on the
MDF Congress which resulted in the split within party ranks. As I mentioned
earlier the Congress was held without the presence of the media and
therefore we know only what happened from the description of those present.
According to Gyorgy Kadar, who had talked to three such people, there were
no antisemitic remarks uttered in connection with Gyorgy Szabad's attempt at
postponing the election of a new party chief. On the other hand, we read on
the Internet that there were such remarks. Let's see, for the sake of
historical accuracy, what Bartus and Bujak have to say about the incidence.

        First, in Hungarian:

"A tanuk szerint (MDNP) `volt kormanytagok, miniszterek is meltatlanul
viselkedtek.' Furcsa bekiabalasok is elhangzottak: `kussolj, te ven...' (es
itt egy ferfias szerv neve kovetkezik). `Takarodj!' .... Az egyik kepviselo
szerint egy torpe minoritas alpari modon zsidozott."

        Here is the translation:

"According to eyewitnesses (MDNP) 'former members of the government, cabinet
members behaved in an unworthy manner.' Strange utterances could be heard:
'shut up, you old . . . (here the name of a male organ follows). `Get out of
here!' .... According to one parliamentary member a tiny minority yelled
anti-Jewish slogans in a most vulgar manner."

        The tiny minority can be one or two persons. But it can be more. We
don't know how many. In any case, it seems that according to at least one
person
anti-semitism, at least in small measure, was present.

        I am sure that in the next few days I will be able to collect more
newspaper descriptions of the MDF meeting and perhaps we will be able to
find exactly what happened.

        Eva Balogh

I forewarned you to watch out for her idiotic emotions Eva Balogh
would reveal by the "excuse" of her not knowing even the most
basic elementary school-stuff (that percentages are not additive
as she used them).

Here she goes again. She would like us believe that the Yale
Library is at fault:  "Unfortunately, in my own library I can't
find the exact figures on voters, only the percentages in parliament."

Eva Balogh either (a) still does not understand that ADDITION
of percentages is absolutely WRONG as she used it, no matter
what the "exact figures on voters" are. Or, (b) she thinks that
_WE ARE_ SO STUPID that we don't know that percentages
are not additive as she used them, and thus we take her outright
lie as a valid excuse.

If (b) is true, it is a horrific insult to the intelligence of readers of
Internet-lists. It is a fact, though Eva Balogh apparently will never
learn, that computer-users would never accept anyone as a
"renaissance scholar" with "universal expertise", that she would
like us to take her. Fact is, anyone with any respect for economics
certainly  disqualifies her expertise e.g. in economics, once her in-
competence is revealed in basic math.

Her "Mea Culpa" for a basic mathematical mistake is totally hollow
also for an emotional reason that apparently she again does not
understand. No one BLAMED her for being ignorant in mathematics.
She has to absolute privilege of being as stupid in math (and as idiotic
in her emotions) as she desires. What she does NOT have a right, is
to claim expertise, once PROVEN WRONG. No sane person
can take her "declarations" ("kinyilatkoztatasok") seriously in
economics, for instance, once she is proven DOUBLEFOLD
incompetent in basic math (and she has therefore no authority to
"dismiss" economists such as Dr. Gidai). Likewise, no sane person
can take her "declaration" ("kinyilatkoztatasok") seriously in history,
for instance, once she "declared" that "in Hungarian we do not
use "szabadsagharc" for 1956".

No one expects any "mea culpa" (or anything, any more) from
Eva Balogh. She can say anything with zero consequence.

At 12:16 PM 3/21/96 +0100, Eva Durant wrote:

>But what green peppers have to do with paprika?
>The former has thick bitter skin, making it undesirable
>as a sandwich component. However the white/yellow
>even if it is called "zoldpaprika" (why is zoldbab called
>that, when in Hungary that is also white/yellow?)
>is just best with a ham/cheese or teliszalami buttie.

I don't disagree, I like it too. However, I think all peppers have the same
origin (seems to be South America?). As a matter of fact paprika is the
Hungarian word for pepper (but I think you knew that). But what is a buttie?
It is not in any of my dictionaries, does it have anything to do with butt;-?

Gabor D. Farkas

There is one good part in this guy's latest message to us:
"_WE ARE_ SO STUPID"
Mr. Szucs is using the royal plural but I am sure he speaks for himself.

Gabor D. Farkas

On Thu, 21 Mar 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:

>         I just received the March 12 issue of *168 Ora," a Hungarian weekly.
> In it there is a longish article by Attila Bujak and Laszlo Bartus on the
> MDF Congress which resulted in the split within party ranks. As I mentioned
> earlier the Congress was held without the presence of the media and
> therefore we know only what happened from the description of those present.
> According to Gyorgy Kadar, who had talked to three such people, there were
   > no antisemitic remarks uttered in connection with Gyorgy Szabad's
attempt at
> postponing the election of a new party chief. On the other hand, we read on
> the Internet that there were such remarks. Let's see, for the sake of
> historical accuracy, what Bartus and Bujak have to say about the incidence.
>
>
> "According to eyewitnesses (MDNP) 'former members of the government, cabinet
> members behaved in an unworthy manner.' Strange utterances could be heard:
> 'shut up, you old . . . (here the name of a male organ follows). `Get out of
> here!' .... According to one parliamentary member a tiny minority yelled
> anti-Jewish slogans in a most vulgar manner."
>
>         The tiny minority can be one or two persons. But it can be more. We
> don't know how many. In any case, it seems that according to at least one
> person
> anti-semitism, at least in small measure, was present.
>
>         I am sure that in the next few days I will be able to collect more
> newspaper descriptions of the MDF meeting and perhaps we will be able to
> find exactly what happened.
>
>         Eva Balogh

I must ask myself after all this: what possible difference can it make to
anyone, whether a "tiny majority" in a meeting of a by now insignificant
party yelled anti-Semitic remarks or not, in whatever context? Does it
show that what's left of the MDF is anti-Semitic, q.e.d.? Or that
Hungarians are anti-Semitic, q.e. etiam d.?  - But who yelled the
vulgarities?

L. J. Elteto

In article >, Joe Szalai
> says:

>I think that leaders today can elevate a society/nation/country to a level
>that already exists, or, they can ruin it.  Mandela may raise S. Africa to
>Western European levels and I would consider that good.  But do you think
>that he can go beyond that?  Can any leader?

I like to believe in the possibilty, even if it seems fanciful...

>I think not. And that can be
>problematic.  If people in developed, western nations, give up hopes that
>leadership, enlightened or otherwise, can make a difference, then we may be
>in for a decline.

Despite your *I think not*, you seem to want to believe in the
possibility, too (through the pessimism.)

>Just look at the low voter turnout in many elections.
>That's just one of the many social costs of "free" markets.  The economic
>costs will have to be tabulated later, after the fall.

Humanoids seem to be gradually wisening up to the *career bullshit
brigade* (i.e., the politicians), in our information age. I, too, am
torn between pessimism and hope.

Regards,

George

George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * Cybernautic address: 
* Independent Commodore Products Users' Group UK * C=64 stuff wanted *
* ACCU ** ARM Club ** Interested in s/h chess books? Ask for my list *

In article >, Eva Durant
> says:
>
>> If people in developed, western nations, give up hopes that
>> leadership, enlightened or otherwise, can make a difference, then we may be
>> in for a decline.  Just look at the low voter turnout in many elections.
>> That's just one of the many social costs of "free" markets.  The economic
>> costs will have to be tabulated later, after the fall.

>I think people should start to look for policies and not
>"style of leadership" which usually boils down who is
>more "lovable" on the tv screens.

Policies, ideas, etc, come from people, don't forget. Joe, yourself
and yours truly, have already made it clear that we are unlikely to
be impressed by anything as superficial as style of or being lovable
on TV. This sort of stuff does seem to take in large numbers of the
electorate in our so-called democracies, though; your previous posting
that mentioned educating the public hit the nail on the head. When will
governments have a ministry for raising human consciousness? Who would
ever have the nerve to implement such a policy in today's politico-
economic climate? An enlightened, leader, with our support, perhaps?
:-)

>If people are disenchanted, the reason is that there
>are no actual differences in what governments do,
>but they also say the same things - what their
>market-research teams told the they should say.
>None of them offer any new strategies to solve
>the immense problems of the variously "developed" worlds,
>and that what their job supposed to be.  At most
>they dig up some old ideas, that failed before in more
>advantageous circumstances (less govt control/more
>govt. control, integration/competition, strong currency/
>weak currency - they all and up being "bad" for the economy
>eventually, and even if the economy is pronounced "healthy"
>wages  are worth less.)
>What they are professional about is: lying. The best are
>the tories. Making people belive that they actually pay less tax,
>when VAT doubled, local taxes tripled and NHS contributions
>doubled... services shrivelled... need I go on...

Yes, right!

Regards,

George

George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * Cybernautic address: 
* Independent Commodore Products Users' Group UK * C=64 stuff wanted *
* ACCU ** ARM Club ** Interested in s/h chess books? Ask for my list *

Gabor D. Farkas wrote:

>  But what is a buttie?
> It is not in any of my dictionaries, does it have anything to do with butt;-?

A pommie (English) word for sandwich. (But bigger?)
So a bacon buttie would be two uncut slices of buttered bread,
with a hunk of bacon between them.

 Garry.

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