Dear SCM Readers,
The Hungarian American Lobby Digest mailing list is ready to go :-)

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A: The digest list will collect all of the mails sent to the Hungarian 
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Enjoy,
Gotthard
--
mailto:
http://mineral.umd.edu/~gotthard/



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X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
Message-ID: >
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 20:41:31 -0500
From: Peter Kovalszki >
Organization: IMA
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: 
Subject: Re: SCM: Re: Soc.culture.magyar
References: > 
ate.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Gyorgy Kovacs wrote:
> 
> In article >,  > wrote:
> >Jo napot mindenkinek!
> >
> >Uj olvasoja vagyok a groupnak es nem regota kiserem figyelemmel a temakat,
> >ezert lehet, hogy hibas benyomasom keletkezett, de feltunt valami. A group
> >elvileg a magyar kultura problemaival kellene hogy foglalkozzon, de ahogy
> >nezem, inkabb a tobb mas groupban is megszokott sardobalas folyik. Zsido-nem
> >zsido, kereszteny-szektas-ateista, jobboldali-baloldali meddo vitak folynak.
> >Nem igazan tudom elkepzelni, hogy ebbol allana a magyar kultura, vagy ha meg
is
> ,
> >hat kisse mas a budapesti kulturafelfogas, mint felenk Gyorben.
> >
> >Levelemmel senkit nem szandekozok megserteni, csak elso benyomsomat irtam le
.
> >
> >Udvozlettel:
> >
> >Murakozi Gergely
> >
> Barcsak tobben is erdekelve lennenek egy igazi tarsalgasban szociologiarol es
> kulturarol. Talan egyszer ........
> Gyuri
> 
>  ------------------------------------------------------------------
>  subs/unsubs info - mailto:
>  ------------------------------------------------------------------     Gergo
, Gyuri,                     Mindkettotoknek igaza 
van,kevesebb fasisztazas/komcsizas/zsidozas nelkul, kevesebb 
jelzohasznalattal is lenne mirol ertekezni.Persze, a felvetett "kenyes" 
temakrol is lehet, sot kell beszelni, "sine ira et studio" de hol 
vagyunk mi attol!?De a technologia( e-mail/usenet group) is hibas : ill 
a technologia szociologiai/szocialpszichologiai vetuletei. Ez vonzza a 
"gazdagszaju embereket" az "artikulalt" kifejezesmodokat, a verbalis 
violenciaban indulataikat kielo tagokat,stb. Vigasztalas gyanant: a 
soc.culture.romanian sem sokkal emelkedettebb: talan annyival, hogy 
kisebb jelenletuk leven az Interneten, a valasztekosabb tagok is 
odaszorulnak; a magyar jelenlet differencialtabb, s  jobban megoszlik 
kulonfele csoportok kozott, a listserv.csoport peldaul emelkedettebb 
hangvetelu. S az is baj hogy ezek a nepek terjeszkedok, mint a kremes- 
atfolynak/exportaljak temaikat es megkozelitesmodjukat ( lasd tendencia 
az HL-en valo vitatkozasra, tema/hang-exportra).Vigasz gyanant: 
megiscsak olvassa az ember, neha beleszol, s nincs jobb, mind megtalalni 
a megfelelo helyet, partnereket, s neha raverni a delete-re! Udv, Peter

I was told that Balassagyarmat was in county Norgra'd, bowever my 
father's passport lists Heves.  The first passport entry is for 1954 - 
has the borders of the counties changed at all in this time?

Please e-mail me.  Thank you in advance!

Val

In article >,  wrote:
>Nem igazan tudom elkepzelni, hogy ebbol allana a magyar kultura, vagy ha 
megis,
>hat kisse mas a budapesti kulturafelfogas, mint felenk Gyorben.
>
>Levelemmel senkit nem szandekozok megserteni, csak elso benyomsomat irtam le.

Termeszetesen ennek semmi koze kulturahoz de Budapesthez meg kevesbe. Kiserje 
figyelemmel melyik uzenet honnan jon.

Itt kerem szeretettel emigrans illetve atmenetileg kulfoldon dolgozo magyarok 
anyazzak egymast jobb dolguk nem leven. Egy a kozos bennu(n)k mind jobban 
tudjak(-juk) mi van es mi lenne jo Magyarurszagon mint akik ott elnek.

Az otthon elo olvasoknak egy dolguk marad, gurulni a rohogestol latvan  mi 
lesz az emberbol kulfoldon es erezni: JOBB ITTHON!

SzP.



--------------------------------------
Peter Szaszvari
http://iap11.ethz.ch/users/szp/szp.htm
--------------------------------------

 wrote:
: > wrote:
: >you know joe, you really should lay off me. i'm funnier, i'm smarter, and
: >i can tear you to little pieces. :-)
: >loudness doesn't count.

: You started pickin' on me in the first place, and you have the nerve to
: write that I should lay off of you?  Your sense of humor and smarts may
: work in a closed institution where you belong, judging from the
: nonsense you carry on your WEB page.  And this is not only my opinion,
: though I must admit it's not as bad today as it used to be when you
: first called attention to your home page.

: >regards
: >ef

: Regardless,
: JP

Take a hint efischer. Mr Joe Pannonescu is high octane excetylene to your 
little Bic flames, because, after all is said and done, Joe is 
well-Hungary. If you want to taunt him, there will be a chain-saw 
massacre that will turn your bytes into little itty bitty binary bits.
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

On 9 Mar 1996, Ivan Marinov wrote:

> :
> 
> >2'. He supports HIX. :-)
> 
> And what? 

 And he does NOT ;-).
--
 Zoli , keeper of <http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/>;
 <'finger '> 
 NOTE: spamsters and bulk emailers see 'X-Policy*:' in the 
header for the charges to be imposed for net abuse!

KC2: Dudley+ (Grubor+)*2 (Fomin+++)/3 (cjames++)*3 
     Iatskovski- (Petersen--)/2

SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!

In article >,
    (George Jalsovszky) wrote:
>>I think it was rather a lie not a mistake or misinterpretation. As I 
>>remembered once the (Antall) government had the idea to take more out of 
>>Soros. So they made a contract with him where they offered to double the 
money 
>>if Soros increases the value to a certain limit. They also wanted to take 
more 
>>control of the SF.
>>The Hungarian government failed to pay(!) and it was such a shame that they 
>>had to attack Soros to compensate.
>>
>How odd! As far as I remember, this contract was made by the Nemeth
>goverment, and it may have been Mr. Soros who had the idea of taking more
>out of the Hungarian government. The next (Antall) goverment just wanted to
>re-negotiate this contract. On the other hand, if one pays half of
>something, they have the right to take some control. Furthermore, an attempt
>to change a contract no longer advantageous to one of the parties is not an
>'attack', and why is a corresponding financial policy 'such a shame'?
>

My English might be very bad. The attack was not that they wanted to change 
the contract. (Did I write that?) The shame was that they could not keep their 
promises. The attac was that they started to blame Soros with every imaginable 
thing of course always without any prove. (Was this clear now?) The government 
had a share in decisions in SF, but it was only proportional to their share of 
payment and they couln not stand it. It is really ridicolous to think that 
Soros ever needed the help of a government. 

In fact Sosos does not need my help too. 
But you can always be or play blind.

What's the matter with you? Why don't you apply for some Soros money?
He used to support even the guys hating him. :)



--------------------------------------
Peter Szaszvari
http://iap11.ethz.ch/users/szp/szp.htm
--------------------------------------

In article >,
   Gergo Javor > wrote:
>Szia
>
>Nem tudom tudja-e valaki miert nem lehet ralepni egy magyar serverre sem!!!!
>Ha valaki barmit tudd rola kerem irjon,mert fontos lenne bejuttnom.
>Az is erdekelne,hogy mi az oka,es az is hogy hogy lehetne megis atjuttni!
>Elore is Koszonom:Gergo

Nem lesz normalis valasz amig meg nem mondja:
-mivel probalkozik
-mi tortenik
-mi a hibauzanet, ha van



--------------------------------------
Peter Szaszvari
http://iap11.ethz.ch/users/szp/szp.htm
--------------------------------------

*** Hungarian Lobby Digest ***  Sat, 9 Mar 1996  Vol 01 No 059

ATTENTION! The Hungarian Lobby Digest mailing list is available!

      ***       Greetings from the Hungarian Lobby      ***
      ***                                               ***
      *** subs/unsubs info:      ***
      *** send articles to:              ***
      *** www:              http://mineral.umd.edu/hl/  ***
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In this issue:
--------------

	HL: magyarok egymas kozt
	HL: Hungarian get-together in San Francisco, CA, Friday, March 8
	Re: HL: Sustainable development
	HL: Re article in Transition
	HL: Transylvania
	Re: HL: Visit to Bo"s (Gabcikovo)
	[none]
	Re: HL: Visit to Bo"s (Gabcikovo)
	HL: European?
	HL: what HL must do or must not do...
	Re: HL: what HL must do or must not do...
	Re: HL: magyarok egymas kozt
	HL: final note for unsubscribe
	[none]
	Re: HL: magyarok egymas kozt
	Re: HL: magyarok egymas kozt
	HL: Anthony Malzanek: Hungarians in Romania (9)
	HL: Fwd: Mecs Imrevel beszeltem...
	HL: Visit to Bo"s (Gabcikovo)
	[none]
	HL: *** NEW *** Hungarian Lobby DIGEST

See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the Hungarian Lobby
 
or Hungarian Lobby Digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues.

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: George Eotvos >
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 11:31:21 +0100
Subject: HL: magyarok egymas kozt

Tisztelt Holgyeim es Uraim !

Erdeklodessel olvasom az itt megjelent irasokat, kulonos tekintettel a
mellyek "magyarok"-rol szolnak. Csaladtorteneszkent egy kicsit illetekesnek
erzem magam arra, hogy egy par szoval kifejtsem a velemenyemet.=20

Az irodam tobb szaz csaladtorteneti kutatast ( ha ugy tetszik csaladfat )
oriz az irattaraban, mellyek kozul egy sincs olyan, ami ne agazna ki a mai
Magyarorszag teruleterol. E csaladok agai behalozzak a Karpat medence
egeszet es szinte minden csaladban felbukkannak szlovak, cseh, nemet, ruten,
szerb vagy roman ( ketsegkivul ez a legritkabb ) nevek. Jelzi ez azt, hogy
nagyon nehez meghuzni, hogy hol a hatar,mely csalad magyar vagy nem magyar.
Soha nem a foldrajzi, politikusok altal meghuzott hatarok szabtak, szabjak
meg a magyarsag hatarait. Egy Ungvaron szuletett ember az idok folyaman mint
tudjuk lehetett magyar, csehszlovak, ukran allampolgar es a sajat itelete
szerint dontotte el, hogy minek vallja magat. A leghangosabban magyarkodo
politikusok es nem politikusok, ha ismernek az oseiket, ugyanekkora
intenzitassal a roman, az ukran vagy a szlovak parlamentben es sajtoban
hivatkozhatnanak oseik verere es a Szent Hazara.=20

Ha visszanezunk a tortenelemben, ezek az altalunk most (bizonyos szempontbol
joggal) serelmezett hatarok soha nem alltak huzamos ideig azonos helyen.
Tudomasul kell vennunk, hogy a tersegunkben mindig igen nagy volt a mozgas,
ugy a nepesseg, mint a hatarok tekinteteben. Gondolom =E9s remelem, hogy ezt=
 a
hatarkerdest talan az Europai Unioba valo belepese ezen allamoknak, lesz
hivatva feloldani. Azok a hangok mellyek a tortenelmi Magyarorszagra
hivatkozva magyarkodnak, nagyon jol tudjak, hogy mindig ezek voltak a
legkonnyebben pengetheto hurok az emberek lelkeben. Gondoljunk viszont bele,
hogy mivel jarna, ha visszakerulne hozzank Erdely, Karpatalja, Felvidek....
A kezdeti oromkonnyek utan enni kellene adni ezeknek az embereknek. Nagyon
szemleletes peldaja volt ennek a ket Nemetorszag egyesitese. Mindenki orult
tapsolt, olelgette egymast a berlini fal ket oldalan. Tessek most elmenni a
valamikori Nyugat-Nemetorszagba es megkerdezni az utca emberet, hogy
mennyire boldog. Pedig Nemetorszag fele annyi ideig volt kette valasztva,
mint amennyi ido Trianon ota eltelt. Nyugat - Nemetorszag-i gazdasagi
helyzetet ugyanugy nem lehet osszehasonlitani Magyarorszag gazdasagi
halyzetevel, mint ahogy Kelet-Nemetorszag is joval jobban allt mint barmely
orszag koroluttunk.
Megis kicsit megrogyott Nyugat-Nemetorszag az ujboli egyesitesbe.=20

Kicsit gondolkodjunk mielott annyira szolgalni akarjuk a "magyar erdekeket"
sokszor hivatlan prokatorkent.

Koszonom a turelmuket !

Oszinte tisztelettel:


Eotvos Gyorgy

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------------------------------

From: Tony and Celia Becker >
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 10:40:52 -0700
Subject: HL: Hungarian get-together in San Francisco, CA, Friday, March 8

One of these year's I'm going to actually get both notice, and important
details, of an event more than 5 days before--and I'll faint.  My apologies
to anyone else for this very late posting, as a result of some details only
becoming known today.

OK, for those who live within the larger northern California metropolitan areas
:

The Hungarian Consul-General from Los Angeles, Dr. Imre Helyes, will be
giving a "state of Hungary" speech for members (and friends) of the
Hungarian American Chamber of Commerce, San Francisco area chapter, on
Friday evening, March 8.  A dinner is included, for those who can and wish
to attend that portion.  Dinner costs $23 for members and $26 for non-members.

The location is the Big Sky Ranch Restaurant (old Paprikas Fonos--and it
still has a Hungarian menu in addition to a "western" menu); Ghirardelli
Square, 900 North Point Blvd. (fifth floor,southwest corner of complex).

Reception is at 6 p.m.; dinner at 7 p.m.; speech at 8 p.m.

RSVP is to the honorary consul and current President of HACC, Eva Voisin, at
tel: 415-595-0444; fax: 415-595-3976.  If you are intending to come for
dinner, call or fax ASAP--like before noon California time Friday March 8.

EXTRA HIGHLIGHT--IMPORTANT PLEASE NOTE: we have a very strong possibility of
the major Republican candidate running for the 14th Congressional seat being
in attendance at this event.  His name is Benjamin Macalester Brink, and he
already has prior interests in Hungary.  Besides being a CEO of a small
high-tech start-up company, and having previous high-tech and venture
capital experience; he has also been an officer in the U.S. Navy and
Reserve.  He currently still holds the rank of "commander" in the USNR and
has members of his unit currently serving in both Hungary and Bosnia--and he
just trained them for this special assignment.  He is also personally a
friend of both William Perry--yes, _that_ William Perry and George
Schultz--yes _that_ George Schultz.

Upon his election in November, Ben could be a powerful voice on behalf of
Hungarian concerns in the U.S. Congress--and have even greater additional
influence through his Naval connections in the Administration... Ben's
campaign office has said they believe he and his wife will be coming to this
event.  Thus this will be an excellent opportunity for Hungarian Americans,
particularly from the Southwest SF Bay area to become acquainted with this
candidate, in a smaller group setting, where you might get to enjoy
lengthier conversations than elections usually permit.

Sincerely,


Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA, USA
e-mail: 




N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

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------------------------------

From: 
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 15:54:14 -0500
Subject: Re: HL: Sustainable development

A pessimistic view that distorts the world. There is plenty of concern
everywhere. But roses are planted only when there is enough excess profit to
pay for it. 
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------------------------------

From: Edith Lauer >
Date: 08 Mar 96 14:35:38 EST
Subject: HL: Re article in Transition

In the newest issue of Transition, (March 8, 1996) there is a five page long
article entitled "Historic Reconciliation' Awakens Old Disputes."  Some of you
might be interested in reading it.  Unfortunately I received my copy from
Hungary by fax and it isn't a good enough quality to send it on to others.

Edith Lauer

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------------------------------

From:  (Csaba Gaal)
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 15:23:29 -0500
Subject: HL: Transylvania

Dear All, 
        A letter was printed in the European newspaper, issue no. 304, dated
March 7-13, 1996.
This is a "reply" to my letter that appeared originally as a rebuttal for
Ileana Rollason's letter in same newspaper, dated January 31, 1996.
        To understand, I first disclose of my rebuttal:
"THERE are a number of factual errors in Ileana Rollason's letter (issue
297). Hungarian authorities did not deny their Rumanian neighbours "the
right to establish... their own nation... and religion". Rumania did not
exist until the end of the last century and almost all Rumanians lived on
the other side of the Carpathians, never in Transylvania. Their Bible was
printed in Budapest for centuries.
        Rollason states: "The map of Europe was actually redrawn by a
fascist Hungary allied to Nazi Germany in the Second World War." This really
is too much. Rollason forgets the Iron Guard and that Rumania was an ally of
Hitler - until things started to go wrong.
        As for redrawing maps, Transylvania is and has been part of Hungary
for a thousand years.
Csaba Gaal
Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
.............................................................................
...................

The new letter was written and signed by Barbu Calinescu, Cambridge, England:

        RECENT correspondence about Transylvania confirms that Hungarians
ignore historical facts. Csaba Gaal's letter (issue 298) is one such example.
        Hungary's ties to fascism became more pronounced during the regime
of Gombo (sic) Gyula (1932-35). Mussolini expressed his support of Miklos
Horthy's fascist Hungary in a speech in Milan on November 1, 1936. With
Germany's help, Hungary occupied part of Slovakia in 1938, followed by a
further extension in March 1939. This was the period when Magyar revisionism
was used by Nazi Germany for exerting pressure on Rumania and Yugoslavia.
        When Horthy's Hungary opened the gates for German penetration to the
Balkans, it was again rewarded. In 1940 Germany and Italy imposed on Rumania
the Vienna Diktat by which part of Transylvania was to be annexed.
        In July 1940 Hitler wrote to King Carol II stating that Rumania had
to accept territorial losses in favour of Hungary, his ally. This latest
annexation was rejected by the anti-Hitlerite powers.
        The Rumanian army liberated the country from Nazi Germany in 1944,
then liberated Hungary and continued towards Prague. In September 1944
British Foreign Secretary Anthony Eden declared that "Rumania had already
been of Substantial assistance to the Allied Cause".
        Rumania had always looked to the West and came under increasingly
strong pressure from Nazi Germany in 1938-39.
        Rumania's staunchest anti-fascist leader, Armand Calinescu, had
became prime minister and warned that Rumania would not give away territory.
A firm fighter against fascism, he was assassinated on 21 September 1939 by
the Iron Guard (Hitler's agents in Rumania). The way was now clear for
Hitler's army to push south.
        Calinescu's stand against fascism was not that of a single man, but
that of the entire Rumanian nation, which clearly expressed itself at his
state funeral.
        I should know, for he was my father.
Barbu Calinescu
Cambridge, England
.............................................................................
......................................................

Write your comments to me, E-mail, or
to the _European_ newspaper,
        (quoting the No. and issue, + reference to letter's title and signature
)
Fax: (44) (0) 171 713 1840
E-mail: 


PLEASE!!!!

No harsh words, NO insults, NO swearing, 
        Write your letter as a civilized Hungarian, with cool head but full
of INREFUTABLE facts. No little white lies either. Just the Truth!!!

        Read the letter very carefully: he refers to Slovakia instead of
Chechoslovakia that was in effect then ( but he talks of Yugoslavia.)  Also,
according to him, the Rumanians liberated Hungary(!!!!) sic... and continued
towards Prague.... (Guess they shared the rape and pillage with the Russians
as well...) Not the first time either... I confess, who was Calinescu? Was
he a communist since they assassinated him? If so, good riddance. But if he
was an honest man, he must be turning in his grave when his son writes so
many half-truths, and outright lies. Then again, his son forgets the whole
history, i.e. Erdely always was Hungarian and so was the Felvidek. For that
matter so was Delvidek. 

One more thing: spend a lot of time with your letter, polish it, and MAKE IT
SHORT. Newspapers don't run long letters!!! Definitely not longer than
either of the two letters above.

Good fuming...   ;-)

Csaba Gaal

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------------------------------

From: 
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 16:39:06 -0500
Subject: Re: HL: Visit to Bo"s (Gabcikovo)

Kedves Bela, Bos-i cikked remek. Elofizetek a Nepszavara is.
Szeretettel udvozol:
 Lajos
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------------------------------

From: 
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 17:14:03 -0500
Subject: [none]

 like to ask you to continue the discussion of the "cost of
reunification" on the hungary-list. The HL list is for people who have only
10  minutes a day to look at our list and all they want to do is to support
our actions, if they agree with them. They want to mail their letters, feel
good that they did something useful and check off. The HL is a work-forum,
the hungary-list is a discussion-forum. Any debate, discussion belongs on the
hungary-list.

Having said that, let me say, that you are 100% correct. When I lectured in
Israel, I asked the taxi driver, if he did not mind paying 62% taxes, so that
each new emigrant can receive a $40,000 house and a year of unemployment to
find work. He looked at me like if I was crazy and said: "But they are my
brothers! We are a family!"

Best regards: Bela Liptak
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From: 
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 18:45:30 -0500
Subject: Re: HL: Visit to Bo"s (Gabcikovo)

Koszonom Lajos: Bela

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From: 
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 18:45:58 -0500
Subject: HL: European?

To the Editor,

In your March 7-13 (issue 304), Barbu Calinescu tries to imply that Hungary
supported Hitler, while Rumania did not. This is not true. Under the fascist
regime of the leader of the Iron Guard, General Antonescu, Rumania was the
first unoccupied Central European state to voluntarily deport her Jews. In
contrast, no Hungarian Jews were deported from Hungary, until Germany
occupied the country on the 19th of March, 1944.

Mr. Calinescu also states that Transylvania was "annexed" by Hungary. This is
not true either. Transylvania was part of Hungary for 1000 years, was given
to Rumania by the Trianon Treaty and was returned to Hungary, by the Vienna
Treaty.

Distortions concerning the past need be refuted, because only the truth can
provide a solid foundation for the much needed reconciliation between Hungary
and Rumania. The relevant facts are: 1) Hungary does not want the return of
Transylvania today. 2) Hungary does want automomy, within multi-national
Rumania, for the national community  of 2 million Hungarians. 3) This
autonomy was guaranteed at the Trianon Peace Treaty of 1920, at the Paris
Peace Treaty of 1947 and in 1991 by the European Community (Recommendation
#1201).

Tacitus once wrote: "We hate whom we hurt." Mr. Calinescu should stop
justifying the hurting of the Hungarian minority on the basis of what he
thinks their great-grandparents did. Instead, we should all work for
stability and prosperity in Central Europe, by first eliminating ethnic
tensions through the granting of autonomy to all ethnic minorities and then,
by eliminating the present power vacuum in the region, through the formation
of a Visegrad Federation or a Danubian Confederation. 

Bela Liptak
March 9, 1996
The writer is a former Yale University professor 

84 Old N.Stamford Road
Stamford, CT 06905 USA
Tel: 203-357-7614
Fax: 203-325-3922

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From: 
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 17:12:02 -0700
Subject: HL: what HL must do or must not do...

Again, a reminder might be appropriate that HL does not have
a "boss", "president" (or worse) to tell if important suggestions
are to be debated here or accepted at face value. It would be
especially worrisome to derail important issues to the "Hungary"
list as it has distinguished itself by censorship not so long ago.
Also, the list "Hungary" demonstrably does   n o t    represent
views of most Hungarians, e.g. the 1956 Revolution and
Freedom Fight has been consistently denied there without the
blessed intervention of its much alert censor (moderator).

Instead, we might do better if band over backwards to avoid
any kind of "command system" on this list, since views are,
of course, pretty spread apart (as in democracies they usually
are).

One might even wish to be careful with sloppy wording such as
"Hungary does not want the return of Transylvania today", since
 the writer might be accused of arbitrating what "Hungary" wants.
A much less misleading statement could read "The present
government of Republic of Hungary does not want the return
of Transylvania today".





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From: Elmer Kuber >
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 20:53:44 -0600
Subject: Re: HL: what HL must do or must not do...

I disagree. I agree with Bela. Debate someplace else. I am very busy CEO and
want to devote my available time to interactivism only, on issues of my own
choosing based on the case proposed or put forward. 

Elemer



At 05:12 PM 3/8/96 -0700, you wrote:
>Again, a reminder might be appropriate that HL does not have
>a "boss", "president" (or worse) to tell if important suggestions
>are to be debated here or accepted at face value. It would be
>especially worrisome to derail important issues to the "Hungary"
>list as it has distinguished itself by censorship not so long ago.
>Also, the list "Hungary" demonstrably does   n o t    represent
>views of most Hungarians, e.g. the 1956 Revolution and
>Freedom Fight has been consistently denied there without the
>blessed intervention of its much alert censor (moderator).
>
>Instead, we might do better if band over backwards to avoid
>any kind of "command system" on this list, since views are,
>of course, pretty spread apart (as in democracies they usually
>are).
>
>One might even wish to be careful with sloppy wording such as
>"Hungary does not want the return of Transylvania today", since
> the writer might be accused of arbitrating what "Hungary" wants.
>A much less misleading statement could read "The present
>government of Republic of Hungary does not want the return
>of Transylvania today".
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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>


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From:  (Ilona Szarvadi)
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 12:15:02 +0100
Subject: Re: HL: magyarok egymas kozt

Eotvos Gy. irasanak margojara.

> A kezdeti oromkonnyek utan enni kellene adni ezeknek az embereknek. 
Tevedes! 
Csak munkat a megelheteshez. Sajnos ez eleg nehez napjainkban.

> Nagyon
> szemleletes peldaja volt ennek a ket Nemetorszag egyesitese. Mindenki orult
> tapsolt, olelgette egymast a berlini fal ket oldalan. Tessek most elmenni a
> valamikori Nyugat-Nemetorszagba es megkerdezni az utca emberet, hogy
> mennyire boldog. 
Jajjgatok, ha valami most faj. Ez termeszetes.
Viszont egy ember eleteben 7-8 ev rovid ido, hogy ne is
emlitsem egy orszag, avagy nemzet tortenelmet.

Ehhez meg azt tennem hozza, hogy pont ugy nem vagyok az "egyesites mellett"
mint ahogy ellene sem. Viszont tudom, hogy Romat sem epitettek ket nap 
alatt.

Ugyancsak tisztelettel:



Szarvadi Ilona
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From:  (MS IRINA S MILYAVSKAYA)
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 22:03:00 EST
Subject: HL: final note for unsubscribe

FINAL NOTE!                     FINAL NOTE!                           
 FINAL NOTE!               FINAL NOTE!

                I had tried to unsubscribe hl unsuccessfully in great 
many times! The "old adress" 
Mr Bela Liptak gave was invalid, my E-mail bounced back from it. The 
current address ignored my request.
This is my last request to remove me from your list. If within 10 
days I will be not removed I will go public 
with my request.


                                              Sincerely yours:

                                                                      
Tibor Szekely c/o Irina Milyavskaya


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From: 
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 21:53:26 -0500
Subject: [none]

Eotvos Gyorgy hozzaszolasara :
 Ha nem lennenek a kornyezo orszagokban olyan tendenciak hogy betiltsak a magya
r
nyelvet es kipengessek a magyarokat a parlamentbol, egesz jo lenne az irasod.
Sajnos igy azokat oktattad ki akik aldozatok, megfajobb hogy nyelvezeted
alapjan te tisztan magyarnak vallanad magad - szerintem. Csak mi tudunk
ilyen hulyek lenni hogy akik valagba rugtak minket azoknak meg is koszonjuk.
 Masodszor hallom hogy Erdely ha hozzank kerulne nekunk kellene etetni oket.
Nem hiszem hogy a helyzet Romaniaban az hogy Erdelyben senki nem dolgozik,
es a josagos kormany meg ingyen zabaltatja oket. Ilyen iranyu tortenelmi
tevelygesek a tortenelmi szemetkosarba valok. Ez rosszabb mint a hulyeseg
csontritkulasa.
 Talan meg kene kerdezni a melluket dongeto magyarokat hogy miert huz a
szivuk oda ahova, ahelyett hogy "haladobban" inkabb letagadjak
hovatartozasukat. Meglepodve olvasnam ha Funar Gyuri ilyen kijelentest tenne : 
> A leghangosabban ROMANKODO 
>politikusok es nem politikusok, ha ismernek az oseiket, ugyanekkora
>intenzitassal a MAGYAR, az ukran vagy a szlovak parlamentben es sajtoban
>hivatkozhatnanak oseik verere es a Szent Hazara.
 Ezek a Te szavaid kis szocserevel.
 Oket miert nem oktatja igy ki senki ?
 Nem az kiabal hogy csukjuk be az ablakot aki kinyitotta, hanem az aki fazik.
 En ellene vagyok minden brutalitasnak, nehogy felre ertsed szavaim.
 A ket Nemet orszag egyesitesevel kapcsolatban kivancsi lennek
 hany nemet szeretne visszacsinalni. Szerintem egy sem. 

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From:  (Csaba Gaal)
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 08:19:38 -0500
Subject: Re: HL: magyarok egymas kozt

>
>Tisztelt Holgyeim es Uraim !
>
>Erdeklodessel olvasom az itt megjelent irasokat, kulonos tekintettel a
>mellyek "magyarok"-rol szolnak. Csaladtorteneszkent egy kicsit illetekesnek
>erzem magam arra, hogy egy par szoval kifejtsem a velemenyemet.=20
>
>Az irodam tobb szaz csaladtorteneti kutatast ( ha ugy tetszik csaladfat )
>oriz az irattaraban, mellyek kozul egy sincs olyan, ami ne agazna ki a mai
>Magyarorszag teruleterol. E csaladok agai behalozzak a Karpat medence
>egeszet es szinte minden csaladban felbukkannak szlovak, cseh, nemet,=
 ruten,
>szerb vagy roman ( ketsegkivul ez a legritkabb ) nevek. Jelzi ez azt, hogy
>nagyon nehez meghuzni, hogy hol a hatar,mely csalad magyar vagy nem magyar.
>Soha nem a foldrajzi, politikusok altal meghuzott hatarok szabtak, szabjak
>meg a magyarsag hatarait. Egy Ungvaron szuletett ember az idok folyaman=
 mint
>tudjuk lehetett magyar, csehszlovak, ukran allampolgar es a sajat itelete
>szerint dontotte el, hogy minek vallja magat. A leghangosabban magyarkodo
>politikusok es nem politikusok, ha ismernek az oseiket, ugyanekkora
>intenzitassal a roman, az ukran vagy a szlovak parlamentben es sajtoban
>hivatkozhatnanak oseik verere es a Szent Hazara.=20
>
>Ha visszanezunk a tortenelemben, ezek az altalunk most (bizonyos=
 szempontbol
>joggal) serelmezett hatarok soha nem alltak huzamos ideig azonos helyen.
>Tudomasul kell vennunk, hogy a tersegunkben mindig igen nagy volt a mozgas,
>ugy a nepesseg, mint a hatarok tekinteteben. Gondolom =E9s remelem, hogy=
 ezt a
>hatarkerdest talan az Europai Unioba valo belepese ezen allamoknak, lesz
>hivatva feloldani. Azok a hangok mellyek a tortenelmi Magyarorszagra
>hivatkozva magyarkodnak, nagyon jol tudjak, hogy mindig ezek voltak a
>legkonnyebben pengetheto hurok az emberek lelkeben. Gondoljunk viszont=
 bele,
>hogy mivel jarna, ha visszakerulne hozzank Erdely, Karpatalja, Felvidek....
>A kezdeti oromkonnyek utan enni kellene adni ezeknek az embereknek. Nagyon
>szemleletes peldaja volt ennek a ket Nemetorszag egyesitese. Mindenki orult
>tapsolt, olelgette egymast a berlini fal ket oldalan. Tessek most elmenni a
>valamikori Nyugat-Nemetorszagba es megkerdezni az utca emberet, hogy
>mennyire boldog. Pedig Nemetorszag fele annyi ideig volt kette valasztva,
>mint amennyi ido Trianon ota eltelt. Nyugat - Nemetorszag-i gazdasagi
>helyzetet ugyanugy nem lehet osszehasonlitani Magyarorszag gazdasagi
>halyzetevel, mint ahogy Kelet-Nemetorszag is joval jobban allt mint barmely
>orszag koroluttunk.
>Megis kicsit megrogyott Nyugat-Nemetorszag az ujboli egyesitesbe.=20
>
>Kicsit gondolkodjunk mielott annyira szolgalni akarjuk a "magyar erdekeket"
>sokszor hivatlan prokatorkent.
>
>Koszonom a turelmuket !
>
>Oszinte tisztelettel:
>
>
>Eotvos Gyorgy
>

Kedves Eotvos ur!

Ketsegtelenul igaza van leveleben, sok mindennel egyetertek, melyeket ir.
        Ugyanakkor azonban nem hiszem, hogy lesz idonk megvarni, amig
Magyarorszag _ES_: Szlovakia, Romania valamint a delvideki gyoztes (Szerbia,
Horvatorszag, Szlavonia, etc...) bekerul az EU-ba. Ahogy a magyar politika
es kozgazdasag e pillanatban all, az EU tagsaga fenyevekre van meg. Azonban
az elszakitott teruleteken elo magyarsag VALOSAG. Most, minel hamarabb kell
segiteni rajtuk, mert kihalnak, beolvadnak a nagy szlav tengerbe.=20
        Nem hiszem, hogy sok magyarnak kellene a "terulet". A mai idokben
"terulet" csak kolonc, melyet meg kell muvelni, adot fizetni ra, stb.
Legtobbunk csak magyar testvereit akarja viszont latni es biztositani azok
letjogat, felviragzasat.  Sot, ha a terulet es az orszag kozgazdasaga
megengedi, johetnek mas nemzetbeliek, hisz oly sokszor tortent ez mar meg
tortenelmunkben. Nem kell felni toluk: sokszor az a "svab" jobb magyarnak
bizonyult, mint a kardjat es buzoganyat csorteto "honffy". Hisz ez a szep es
foleg csodalatos a magyarban: akarki idegen belekostol, magyar lesz. Ha
kell, eletet adja Magyarorszagert. Arulok csak a nemzetkozi salakbol=
 akadnak,=20
        Kivanok tovabbi jo munkat kutatasaiban,

Gaal Csaba

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From: 
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 08:54:02 -0500
Subject: Re: HL: magyarok egymas kozt

Uraim es Holgyeim:

Olvasva a Cziffra Jancsihoz intezett dorgedelmes "kikerem magamokat"
is, es a "Tisztelt Holgyeim es Uraim"-at is, tovabba mint olyan valaki,
aki szabaduszo gyanant 50 eves ujsagiroi multra tekint vissza, meg kell
hogy jegyezzem: szegeny Liptaknak es azoknak akik az evszazados
ratartisagban szenvedo fura urak szajaize szerint akarnak  a HL akcio
keszseget megszervezni - nincs konnyu dolga. 
    Kategorikusan le kell szogeznem, hogy tobbsegunk a magyar vagy
magukat magyarnak vallo idegen teruleti kisebbsegek sorsanak rendezese
erdekeben tomorult a HL-be, es a jelenlegi egeto problemak szemugyre
vetele soran egyikunket sem erdekel hajanal elorancighalt szarmazasi
komplezumok, irredenta es valosagtol elrugaszkodott lazalmok
pertraktalasa, hanem ket labbal a ma talajan akarunk allni a megoldasokat
es a vitakat illetoen is. 
    Van erre egy jo amerikai slogan, talan jobb is mint akarmelyik hasonlo
magyar. Ez pedig:
     GET REAL BUDDY!
     Megpedig surgosen, mielott "unsubs" vagy "delete" az ostoba es 
idoszerutlenul tollaszkodo uzenet jobbsorsra erdemes kepernyomon.

     Pagony Lajos  >
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From: Gotthard Saghi-Szabo >
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 09:02:17 -0500 (EST)
Subject: HL: Anthony Malzanek: Hungarians in Romania (9)

		Anthony Malzanek >

For a better understanding of the Hungarian minority in Romania:
(9th posting: Churches)



  
         THE SITUATION OF HUNGARIAN CHURCHES IN ROMANIA
         ==============================================



  1. The period between 1918-1945:
     ----------------------------

  
  The Hungarian Churches in Romania (Roman Catholic, Reformed, Unitarian 
  and Lutheran) along with religious services had also performed an 
  educational, social, traditionally charitable and cultural activity 
  disposing only of their own funds. The educational activity is 
  nation-wide, from kindergarten to the Theological Institute. 
  The social charitable activity provides supplies in hospitals and 
  old people's homes. The cultural activity is performed in printing 
  shops, museums and associations.

  As a result of the 1921 Agrarian Reform, 85% of the lands belonging 
  to the churches was nationalized and the life of the self-supporting 
  churches was paralyzed (Decree #. 3911/1919,modifying Decree #. 
  2478/1920 and the Law of Garofled issued on July 23, 1921 
  - see Appendix No. 1).
  

  
  2.  The period between 1945-1989:
      ============================ 
      

  The communist, nationalist, atheist nationalization of 1948 took over 
  the remaining lands, estates and cultural values of the churches. 
  The only properties left were the churches and some apartment houses 
  (see Appendix No. 2). Most of the clergymen were put to jail. 
  The monks belonging to different orders, which had been abolished, 
  were sent to compulsory settlements. Due to the lack of an adequate 
  religious training for clergymen the churches hardly survived until 1989,
  when everything had to be started from the beginning.


  3. After 1989:
     ==========



  The expectations related to the 1989 changes were not fulfilled because 
  the government did not present the Parliament the draft of law 
  submitted by the 14 legally recognized churches - including the Orthodox
  Church - although the draft was submitted as soon as 1990 and it was an
  organic and basic draft of law. 
  
  The churches rejected the modifications proposed by the government, 
  because it objected to the return of the nationalized and confiscated 
  properties and it wanted to reduce religious education merely to 
  clergymen training. The Hungarian community submitted its objections 
  concerning the Law of Cult to the government, the Parliament and 
  the Minority Council.
  
  
  4. More detailed examples:
     ======================


  Examples of properties belonging to the Hungarian Churches in Romania 
  which were nationalized in 1948 or confiscated and not returned to 
  their rightful owners. In this manner the renewal ofheir educational and 
  charitable activity required by the society and their self-supporting 
  and beneficent functioning are hindered:

  a) Estates (monasteries, convents, lands, forests)
     -------
  The Agrarian Law allows the allotting of 5 ha of land to the churches 
  but only in the countryside. The convents can have a land no larger 
  than 10 ha, but only in the countryside. Most of the convents are in 
  towns so the situation of their properties is not clarified. 
  
  In the Alba Iulia Diocese the Roman Catholic Church had convents and 
  25 religious orders for both males and females.
  
  In Oradea the property belonging to Viczes nuns should be returned, 
  while the Orthodox nunneries, convents and monasteries were not 
  nationalized and so their return is not a matter of concern. 
  The case is qualified as religious discrimination and anti-nationalistic 
  manifestation.
  
  b) Buildings (schools, hospitals, old people's homes, parish-houses, 
     ---------  
  apartment houses)

  The number of nationalized church schools in Romania is 1593 out of 
  which: 
  
  531 Reformed, 
  468 Roman Catholic, 
  266 Lutheran, 
  141Orthodox, 
  124 Jewish, 
  34 Unitarian and 
  17 Greek Catholic. 
  

  
  Law #. 176/1948 concerning the nationalization of schools was illegally 
  applied to the parish houses as well and they were fiscated in 90 cases 
  (e.g. Roman Catholic Diocese in Alba Iulia). All of them were official 
  residence. 
  
  The Roman Catholic Episcopal Palace in Oradea was confiscated 
  and became state museum. Still there is no museum presenting the 
  Hungarians in Transylvania.
  
  Eviction action was taken against the Reformed Episcopate of 
  Kiralyhagomellek (Episcopatul Reformat de pe linga Piatra Craiului)
  in order to force it to leave its own building.
 
  In Alba Iulia no college building was returned to the church although 
  the reopened school needs it.
  
  c) Cultural Values (paintings, books, relics, museums or museum pieces)
     ---------------

  Koroknyai Otto's painting entitled King Matthias in front of Vienna 
  (24 square meters) could be seen on a wall in the Roman Catholic 
  Episcopal Palace in Oradea. It was taken off, rolled over, it has not 
  been exhibited or given back to its owner. 

  The Batthyaneum in Alba Iulia, which had a library, a museum and an 
  observatory famous in whole Europe (founded by Count Batthany Ignac, 
  Bishop of Transylvania, in 1791) was also confiscated.

  The private library and the documents belonging to Bishop Marton Aron 
  were confiscated and were not returned. 

  This fact prevents the procedure of his beatification.
  
  d) Archives
     --------

  According to Educational Law #. 150/1950 and Law #. 2698/1952 issued by 
  the Ministry of the Interior the archive documents and registers of 
  birth belonging to more than 1200 churches and parishes were taken 
  away. 
  
  Unless these are returned the continuity of the ecclesiastical life is 
  hindered and the proofs of the past are absent.

  
  _________________________________________________________________


 
   
   
   Appendix no. 1.

   The expropriation (in virtue of the law from 23 of July 1921) of the
   arable land properties belonging to the Hungarian churchesChurchBefore 
1921After 1921

Expropriation
                   (acres)      (acres)       (acres)
Roman catholic     290.50       712.994       277.513 
Calvinist            2.148       36.926           25.222  
Unitarian           17.916        6.527           11.389
Hungarian Lutheran   1.041          968                  73

Total               71.612       57.415          314.197



  Note:
     
     * 1) In Transylvania there are 8.194.367 acres of arable land, from
       which 5% was held by mentioned churches, and after 1921 remain
       (approximately) just 1%.
     * 2) The possessions of the Orthodox church are excepted from
       expropriation.
     * 3) The dates are gathered from the authentic extracts from
       cadastral registers of the mentioned churches.

     _________________________________________________________________


   Appendix no. 2.
   ============

   Properties of the Hungarian Churches Nationalized in 1948

A - schools
B - boarding schools
C - teacher's apartments
D - hospitals, orphanages
E - culture houses
F - convents
G - lodging houses 
H - residences of priests   
I - episcopal palaces
     
Church                 A     B     C     D     E     F    G     H     I

Roman catholic       468    20     -     9     -    70   42    28     1
Calvinist            531     6    20     7    51     -   20   136     1
Unitarian            342     -     -    14     -     -    -    12     
- -     -
Hungarian Lutheran     8     -     -     -     6     -    -     -     - 
Other                  2     2     -     -    14     -    -     -     -

Total              1.351    28    20    30    71    70   62   176     2

compared to:
- ---------
Orthodox             141     7
Greek catholic        17
   
   

Note:

   In 1948 the Romanian State nationalized 1593 denominational and      
   private schools (order #. 176/1948 of the Great National Assembly).


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From: 
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 10:21:30 -0500
Subject: HL: Fwd: Mecs Imrevel beszeltem...

Dear Colleagues,

Based on the attached letter, we are still in time to apply pressure to pass
legistlation, which would open the files of the Hungarian Secret police.

The Hungarian Parliament is contemplating legistlation, which would open the
files of those persons (the "internal reactionaries") who were spied upon by
the III/III Department of the former Hungarian Secret Police, but WOULD NOT
open the III/I (information gathering), III/II (counter-intelligence), III/IV
(military intelligence) related files. There were 630 III/III operatives,
while the total number in all four departments was 10,000.

It seems to me that this legistlation should be extended to also apply to the
III/I, III/II and III/IV files. It was the III/I and III/II Departments,
who's job it was to spy on foreigners and on Hungarian emigrants. One of
their specific assignments was to plant discord among Hungarian groups and
thereby prevent our unified and therefore effective action. As they
infiltrated our organizations, spread lies and fueled personality conflicts,
they have done unrepearable damage, the effects of which still linger.
Because we were the ones who suffered the consequences of these activities,
it seems appropriate that we should request the broadening of this
legistlation.

As you can see from the attached, Imre Mecs MP has introduced legistlation to
open all files. It is very important that we contact the leaders of the
Hungarian government and the media to support the Mecs ammendment. The
passage of this ammendment is important not only because in an open and
democratic society past crimes should not be officially covered up. Even more
important is that right now, a few thousand traitors are telling a nation of
10 million innocent sufferers, that "we are all guilty and degrees of guilt
do not matter. We should just forget the past." This is the lie of the
century. We should not allow the pufajkas and the other traitors to stain the
honor of a much suffered and innocent nation. Please write!

The addresses are:

HUNGARIAN GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS:






HUNGARIAN WIRE SERVICE (MTI), NEWSPAPER & RADIO





Best regards: Bela Liptak
- ---------------------
Forwarded message:
From:	 (Kadar Gyorgy)
To:	 (Liptak Bela)
Date: 96-03-08 03:53:30 EST

	Kedves Bela,
	Ma reggel sikerult vegre elernem Mecs Imret telefonon.
	1) Forradalom megunneplese:
Nem lesz konnyu, de az eselyek remenyteliek. Hatparti bizottsagot akar 
letrehozni a parlamentben, a folyamat eleg jol indult, de most velemenye 
szerint az MDF szetvalasa es a KDNP (keresztenydemokratak) belso 
veszekedesei nem kedveznek a nyugodt munkanak.
Fonay Jenovel tartja a kapcsolatot, reszt is vett a POFOSZ 
megalakulasanak hetedik evfordulojara emlekezo unnepsegukon (Errol 
olvastam en a ket hettel ezelotti ujsagban Berlinben). 
Remenykedjunk, de nem lesz konnyu - ez az uzenet lenyege.
	2) Az ugynoktorveny altalanos vitaja lezajlott, vegszavazas meg 
nem volt. Koszeg Ferenccel es Halda Alizzal harmasban beadtak egy 
modosito csomagot, ami szerint 
a) a teljes III. ugyosztalyra (ez valami  olyasmi lehet, aminek csak egy 
resze az un. III/III) ki kellene terjeszteni az atvilagitasi 
kotelezettseget 
b) mindenkinek joga legyen kerni a sajat atvilagitasat
c) "szemelyi adatvedelmi onrendelkezes" (vagy mi a nyavalya...itt nem 
vagyok biztos a Mecs Imre szohasznalataban), aminek az a lenyege, hogy 
mindenkinek joga legyen a sajat magara vonatkozo jelentescsomagokat 
megismerni
d) jojjon letre egy Tortenelmi Irattar (megint...ha jol emlekszem) ahol 
az ilyen titkosszolgalati eredetu szemelyi iratokat orzik leveltarszeru 
tudomanyos alapossaggal, de adatvedelmi onrendelkezest biztosito 
elovigyazatossaggal.
	Ha jol ertem, ennek a modosito csomagnak az elfogadasa eseten az 
Class Action Suit jelentosege lenyegesen lecsokkenne. A vegszavazas 
viszont meg hatra van, az MSZP-nek (54%) nem tul szimpatikusak ezek a 
modositasok. Varjuk ki a veget.
	Hat ennyit beszeltunk, elkerte az e-mail cimemet, lehet hogy majd 
az orszaggyulesben elobb-utobb a kepviseloknek is lesz internet 
lehetoseguk? 
	Barati udvozlettel			kadargyorgy
  

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From: 
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 09:18:01 -0500
Subject: HL: Visit to Bo"s (Gabcikovo)

Dear Colleagues,

The Hungarian language American weekly (Népszava) will publish the attached
report on my trip to Bos (Gabcikovo). As this report was written in accented
Hungarian, I am distributing it in that  form to our bilingual lobby. My
apologies to those for whom this is a problem.
       Népszava is the oldest Hungarian newspaper anywhere in the world
(including Hungary), it was founded in Pennsylvania in 1894. It is also the
largest Hungarian paper in the USA. It has 4,200 subscribers (about 42,000
readers). It is published on 28 pages, costs $1/per copy and can be ordered
at 12 Wright Court, East Brunswick, NJ 08816. The Népszava has already
reported the work of the Hungarian Lobby and if you can afford to subscribe,
you would be supporting an old Hungarian institution. The largest Hungarian
language paper on the American Continent, printed in 11,000 copies in Canada,
is Hungarian Life (Magyar Élet).

Best regards: Béla Lipták


                                1996, január 31, Látogatás Bo"so"n

Azért, hogy ne egyedül járjam Szlovákiát, velem jön egy pesti környezetvédo"
 és nyugdíjas biológia tanárno" , Arnóti Gabriella. Illetve csak jönne, mert
a magyar határ o"rök, a lejárt útlevele miatt, feltartóztatják. Így, mire
átjutok a szlovák oldalra, az ottani elleno"rzéskor már egyedül ülök a
kocsiban.Így aztán már csak én hallom, amikor ízes magyarsággal megszólal a
szlovák határo"r:  Adj Isten Szenátor Úr!  Na mondom, ez meg kivel téveszt
össze? De azért szólni nem szólok, csak úgy  szenátorosan  biccentek neki,
mire O"  nagyot szalutál, én meg megnyomom a gázt.
       Egyedül hajtok a hótengerré fagyott csallóközi úton. Az életnek semmi
jele. Áthajtok elo"ször Szapon, aztán Csiliznyárádon, s végül elérem a
95%-ban ma is magyarok lakta árpádkori települést, Bo"st. Nagy, kék táblán
díszeleg a helyiség új, szlovák neve: Gabci kovo. O"  egy kommunista partizán
volt. A Gabcikovo nevét hirdeto"  kék tábla alatt, jóval kisebb fehér táblán,
látható az ezer éves eredeti név is: Bo"s.
       Sokszor megjártam én már ezt az utat. Voltam itt busz és autó
karavánnal, magyar és idegen TV-sekkel, környezetvédo"kkel, de így
szálmagamban most járok itt elo"ször. Az ero"mu"  beton monstrumához érve
szokatlan kép fogad: Nincs rendo"rség, nincsenek farkaskutyák vagy
rabszállító kocsik, csak békésen tébláboló, többnyire magyarúl beszélgeto",
munkások vannak.

	Életveszélyes A Gát  

Így aztán kényelmesen végigfényképezem a tragikus állapotban lévo"
 ero"mu"vet. A tíz emelet magasra tornyosított víz szöko"kutakat formálva
spriccel át a megrepedezett betonfalakon (Kép #1). Nem az a kérdés, hogy
összedo"l-e ez a  mu" , csak az, hogy mikor töri át a gátat ez a 200 millió
köbméternyi víztömeg?
      Ahogy megyek tovább, nyitva marad a szám: A két év elötti ukrán
hajóbaleset okozta károkat a mai napig nem tudták rendbehozni,
használhatatlanúl áll a belso"  hajó-zsilip. Aztán látom, hogy jég
tornyosodik a külso"  zsilipkapuban, nem mu"ködik az sem (Kép #2).  Mi
történt itt?  - kérdezem az egyik kábelen dolgozó, már deresedo"  bajszú
magyar villanyszerelo"t, aki elo"ször körülnéz, s amikor látja, hogy csak
magunkban vagyunk, akkor válaszol:  "Ja kérem, ezeknek a bölcseknek az már
nem jutott az eszébe, hogy a Duna télen befagy. Mánpedig, ha itt jég van,
akkor hajózás, az nincs!" 
      És tényleg, csak most értem meg, hogy mit is látok! A gát, melyro"l azt
mesélték, hogy javítani fogja a dunai hajózást, leállította azt! Az ero"mu"
 feletti öböl befagyott, ezért áll a hajóforgalom. Szinte hihetetlen, hogy a
20-ik század végén, Európá szívében olyan zsilipet építettek, mely nem képes
leengedni a jeget. Nevetve mondja a villanyszerel : " Melegvízzel
locsolgatják a Duna jegét, azt hiszik attól majd megolvad!"  Nekem üvölteni
lenne kedvem, de befogom a számat. Nem akarom felhívni magamra a figyelmet,
nem akarok megfürödni a 10-emeletnyi mélységben örvénylo"  jeges vízben.  
	
A Halálraitélt Falvak

Most megkondul a déli harangszó a bo"si templom tornyában. Mivel a szlovák
környezetvédo"kkel csak félketto"kor találkozom, van még ido"m kiszaladni
Nagybodakra. Az üzemvízcsatorna három magyar falut, Dobrogazt, Nagybodakot és
Vajkát, elvágta a külvilágtól. Én Nagybodak polgármesterét, a fiatal és
rátermett Lukovics Lászlót készülök ott meglátogatni.
        Mikor lefordulok a gátról, azt sem látom hol az út? Itt aztán nem
volt hókotrás! Úgy vezetek, hogy a telefonpóznák állásából igyekszem
megsaccolni, hogy hol lehet az út? Közben azon imádkozom, hogy be ne csússzak
az árokba, mert akkor aztán nincs látogatás, akkor itt az árokban alszom!
Végre feltu"nik a falu jelzo"táblája, a nagy és fehér táblán ott a szlovák
név: Bodiky, a kisebb kék táblán meg ott áll magyarúl is, hogy Nagybodak (Kép
#3).
       Nagybodak ma már nem  nagy,  a 930 lakosból 570 elvándorolt,
elmenekült. Maradtak itt 360-an, többségük fáradt, öreg emberek. A
halálraitélt és becsapott falu iskolájában összesen 14 kisdiák lézeng. A falu
csaknem szinmagyar, egyetlen szlovák család él csak benne. Nagybodak
lakosainak azt igérték az ero"mu"  építo"i, hogy ha nem tiltakoznak, ha
csendben maradnak, akkor itt lesz gazdasági fejlesztés, lesz víztisztító,
kapnak kedvezményes buszjáratot, kompot vagy alagutat, na meg olcsó,
kedvezményes áramot.  Aztán ezt kaptunk!  - használja a nemzetközileg ismert
karjelet a polgármester.
	
Hazudnak Rendületlenül

Mint tudjuk, alagut csak a kábeleknek épült, s az is olyan mino"ségu", hogy
ma már tele van vizzel. Kompot csak Vajka kapott, s az is többet áll, mint
megy: leáll, ha szél van, leáll a ködben, eso"ben meg ázik rajta az ember,
mert ugye fedelet, azt már nem kapott. A jó hír az, mondja a fiatal,
energikus polgármester:  "Hogy a földeket visszakaptuk és a kolhoz átalakúlt
holland tipusú valódi szövetkezetté. A gond persze a szállítás, mert hát ugye
szigetté váltunk. Az aki 1992 elött 15 perc alatt Dunaszerdahelyen volt, most
napi 2 órát buszozhat." 
         Öt perces késéssel érek vissza a gátra, a megbeszélt találkozási
helyünkre. Az ero"mu"vet ismerteto"  térképnél (Kép #4) már ott állnak,
va'rnak a szlovák környezetvédo"k. Úgy beszélgetünk, mintha nem ismerne'nk
egyma'st, s csak a térképet tanulma'nyonna'nk egyu"tt, magyaráznánk
egymásnak. Kitüno", hiteles dokumentációt kapok to"lük a gát okozta
környezeti és egészségügyi kárakat illeto"en, melyeket pár nap múlva át is
adok majd a hágai biróságnak. O"k is nagy örömmel hallják, hogy az Interneten
megindult a Duna-mento"  akció és azt is, hogy a 9 környezetvédo"  szervezet
közös beadványát elfogadta (amicus curiae alapon) a bíróság. Míg
beszélgetünk, a szemük körbejár, lesik, hogy figyelnek-e bennünket?
Fényképro"l, neveik említéséro"l persze szó sem lehet. Hiába, nem
életbiztosítás Szlovákiában környezetvédo"nek lenni. Még kiosztom a
Kiegyezési Tervünk legfrisebb változatát aztán, mint akik végre megértettük,
hogy mit is mutat a térkép, egyesével és különbözo"  irányokba indulva
szétszéledünk.

	Csak A Címer Miatt..

Ahogy sétálok vissza a kis fehér kocsimhoz, megszólít egy harcsabajuszos
fiatalember:  "Csak a címer miatt szólok."  - mondja, rámutatva mellemen az
elmaradhatatlan Kossuth címeremre.  "Kérem, mondja meg a túloldalon, hogy
bátyámat kirugással fenyegette a szlovák maszek, ha magyar iskolába meri
iratni a kis Jóskát. Mondja meg, hogy csinájjanak mán valamit, mert illen a
kommunizmusba sem vót!"  Kemény a kézszorítása, érdes a tenyere, s én most
olyan szégyent érzek, mint tegnap, amikor nem álltam be a hólapátoló pestiek
közé.
        Visszafelé, a határon felszedem a békésen várakozó Arnóti Gabriellát.
Míg én Szlovákiában jártam, O"  kiolvasott néhány ujságot, s most az
érdekesebb híreket meséli. Megemlíti, hogy a Pápa jelen lesz Pannonhalma ezer
éves évfordulójának megünneplésén, emléktáblát állít az ott megmentett ezer
zsidó származású magyar fiatalnak, s bejelenti Szent István feleségének,
Gizellának szentté avatását. Késo"bb arról mesél, hogy Demszki Gábor el
akarja adni a fo"város tulajdonában lévo"  Margit Szigetet, meg arról, hogy
Surányi György, a Nemzeti Bank elnöke éppen százszor annyit ($10,000- t) kap
havonta, mint az O"  nyugdíja.
          Bizony késo"  este van, mire Pesten leszurkolom a $108-os
kocsibért, ami közel kétszerese annak amibe Amerikában került volna az egy
napi bérlés. Aztán amíg a földalatti várótermében álldogálunk, nézegetek egy,
a  népnevelo"   ido"kre emlékezteto"  vetített képet, melyen néger és indiai,
zsidó és arab, cigány és kínai arcok mosolygnak a megszívlelend  felirat
felett, mely így hangzik:  "Légy türelmes, elvégre Te is más vagy!"
 Mosolyogva rábólintok, s erre mellettem megszólal egy csizmás férfi:  "Azért
mán csak úgy mutatóba, közülünk is odasúvaszthattak vóna egyet!?" 
        Este kijön rajtam a fáradtság, otthon maradok. Faludy Gyurka u'j
könyvét forgatom, a TV kapcsolóját tekergetem. Az MTV-n sport mu"sor, a Duna
TV-n a széki népszokásokat mutatják be, hirdetés nem szakítja meg a
programokat, csak a mu"sor végén, az óra utolsó perceiben hirdetnek.
Kellemesen telik az ido". 40 év ide vagy oda, én itthon vagyok.
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From: 
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 10:57:12 -0500
Subject: [none]

Eotvos Gyorgy hozzaszolasara :
 Ha nem lennenek a kornyezo orszagokban olyan tendenciak hogy betiltsak a magya
r
nyelvet es kipengessek a magyarokat a parlamentbol, egesz jo lenne az irasod.
Sajnos igy azokat oktattad ki akik aldozatok, megfajobb hogy nyelvezeted
alapjan te tisztan magyarnak vallanad magad - szerintem. Csak mi tudunk
ilyen hulyek lenni hogy akik valagba rugtak minket azoknak meg is koszonjuk.
 Masodszor hallom hogy Erdely ha hozzank kerulne nekunk kellene etetni oket.
Nem hiszem hogy a helyzet Romaniaban az hogy Erdelyben senki nem dolgozik,
es a josagos kormany meg ingyen zabaltatja oket. Ilyen iranyu tortenelmi
tevelygesek a tortenelmi szemetkosarba valok. Ez rosszabb mint a hulyeseg
csontritkulasa.
 Talan meg kene kerdezni a melluket dongeto magyarokat hogy miert huz a
szivuk oda ahova, ahelyett hogy "haladobban" inkabb letagadjak
hovatartozasukat. Meglepodve olvasnam ha Funar Gyuri ilyen kijelentest tenne : 
> A leghangosabban ROMANKODO 
>politikusok es nem politikusok, ha ismernek az oseiket, ugyanekkora
>intenzitassal a MAGYAR, az ukran vagy a szlovak parlamentben es sajtoban
>hivatkozhatnanak oseik verere es a Szent Hazara.
 Ezek a Te szavaid kis szocserevel.
 Oket miert nem oktatja igy ki senki ?
 Nem az kiabal hogy csukjuk be az ablakot aki kinyitotta, hanem az aki fazik.
 En ellene vagyok minden brutalitasnak, nehogy felre ertsed szavaim.
 A ket Nemet orszag egyesitesevel kapcsolatban kivancsi lennek
 hany nemet szeretne visszacsinalni. Szerintem egy sem. 
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From: Gotthard Saghi-Szabo >
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 08:58:23 -0500 (EST)
Subject: HL: *** NEW *** Hungarian Lobby DIGEST

Dear HL Subscribers,
As you must have seen from the added footers, the Hungarian Lobby Digest
mailing list is ready. 

Q: What is a digest list? 
A: The digest list will collect all of the mails sent to the Hungarian 
   Lobby during one day and send it out to you in a single mail. 
   Just as e.g. the HIX services. 

Q: What are the advantages?
A: Less number of mails daily - one (although, the same volume).

Q: What are the disadvantages?
A: You are going to get the messages via the digest list less than a day 
   later than the regular HL subscribers. 

Q: What about the regular HL list?
A: It will stay in service just as before, the digest list will be its 
   extra service.

Q: Can I send messages to the digest list?
A: No, you have to send your messages to the HL list. Then, those 
   messages will be collected at the end of the day, and will be sent out
   to the digest subscribers.

Q: How do I send messages to the HL list, if I am a HL Digest 
   subscriber?
A: Just as before, address your mail to: , or, 
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Q: What are those messages glued to my letters?
A: Those are temporary messages, trying to help you to switch to the 
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   way, others might also benefit from it.

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A: The HAL has also started its digest list. To subscribe,
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Enjoy,
Gotthard
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End of *** Hungarian Lobby Digest *** V1 #59
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*** Hungarian American List Digest ***   Sat, 9 Mar 1996  Vol 03 No 066

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In this issue:

	HAL: Re: Insurance fraud
	HAL: *** NEW *** Hungarian American List DIGEST
	Re: HAL: *** Error messages ***
	Re: HAL: I am surprised ...
	HAL: Anthony Malzanek: Hungarians in Romania (9)
	HAL: (no subject)
	HAL: apologies
	HAL: Visit to Bo"s (Gabcikovo)
	HAL: mail new friends
	HAL: LA Tanchaz
	Re: HAL: THE HUNGARIAN "CULTURE-STORE" IS ABOUT TO OPEN
	HAL: *** Reuter/UPI/AP News *** Mar/8/96 ***
	HAL: PENPALS
	Re: HAL: THE HUNGARIAN "CULTURE-STORE" IS ABOUT TO OPEN
	HAL: Suspend Hungary List
	Re: HAL: More Insurance Fraud
	HAL: *** VoA Newswire *** Mar/8/96 *** Central European Stocks
	HAL: *** CET On-Line *** Mar/8/95 ***
	HAL: *** OMRI Daily Digest *** Mar/8/96 
	HAL: I am surprised ...
	HAL: Re: I am surprised ...
	HAL: More Insurance Fraud
	Re: HAL: Re: Insurance fraud
	Re: HAL: Re: Insurance fraud
	HAL: THE HUNGARIAN "CULTURE-STORE" IS ABOUT TO OPEN
	[none]

See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the Hungarian
American List or Hungarian American List Digest mailing lists and on how 
to retrieve back issues.

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: 
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 02:50:52 -0500
Subject: HAL: Re: Insurance fraud

My cousin, Jozsef Borsanyi in Budapest, was the beneficiary of a $115,000
insurance policy by Equitable Insurance from his brother Miklos.  After
Miklos died in November, 1994, Equitable made no attempt to contact Jozsef in
Budapest.  Instead they sent the money to a dishonest attorney in Miami who
split the money with Miklos' roommate.  They gave Jozsef a pittance of
$6,000.  Now Equitable will not take any responsibility for their actions and
feel that since Jozsef speaks no English, reads no English and understands no
English, he deserves to lose the money he was entitled to.

I believe all Hungarians should help convince Equitable that they were wrong
in doing this.  If you think you can help, contact me and I will send you all
pertinent information.  Incidentally, the dishonest lawyer is currently being
investigated by the Florida Bar Association and will probably lose her
license.  This is fine but it does not get Jozsef the money he needs so
desperately.

All Hungarians should help convince this anti-Hungarian group of the error of
their ways.

Eva  
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From: Gotthard Saghi-Szabo >
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 08:53:46 -0500 (EST)
Subject: HAL: *** NEW *** Hungarian American List DIGEST

Dear HAL Subscribers,
As you must have seen from the added footers, the Hungarian American List 
Digest mailing list is ready. 

Q: What is a digest list? 
A: The digest list will collect all of the mails sent to the Hungarian 
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A: It will stay in service just as before, the digest list will be its 
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A: No, you have to send your messages to the HAL list. Then, those 
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Q: How do I send messages to the HAL list, if I am a HAL Digest 
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Enjoy,
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- --
mailto:
http://mineral.umd.edu/~gotthard/


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------------------------------

From:  (Ken Polyak)
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 09:05:50 -0500
Subject: Re: HAL: *** Error messages ***

>Dear List Members!
>We are very sorry about this unfortunate incident. I just realized what 
>happened when I got up this morning (it occured during the night). We did 
>not do anything at the list, the Computer Center administrators must have 
>done something with nameserver, mailalias entries. The error messages you 
>received should go (and they did go so far, for almost three years) - to 
>the list owners address - which is currently  .
>Again, this is our first accident in our third year. The problem seem to 
>be solved by now. Please, accept my apologies. If you want to know more, 
>please, contact Joe Sackett > . 
>Thank you for your understanding. 
>Best regards,
>Gotthard
>--
>mailto:
>http://mineral.umd.edu/~gotthard/

Dear Gotthard,

Yesterday, 7 Mar 1996 was the first time ever my total no. of E-mail
messages received in one day exceeded one hundred.
Reaching this benchmark was due to Joe Sackett's eagerness.
Anyway, I wish to thank Joe for enabling Me to reach this 
majestic level.

Viszonthallasra.

Karoly Ken Polyak  ( Toronto )

>

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From: 
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 96 08:32:53 EST
Subject: Re: HAL: I am surprised ...

          Andras

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From: Gotthard Saghi-Szabo >
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 09:02:17 -0500 (EST)
Subject: HAL: Anthony Malzanek: Hungarians in Romania (9)

For a better understanding of the Hungarian minority in Romania:
(9th posting: Churches)

  
         THE SITUATION OF HUNGARIAN CHURCHES IN ROMANIA
         ==============================================



  1. The period between 1918-1945:
     ----------------------------

  
  The Hungarian Churches in Romania (Roman Catholic, Reformed, Unitarian 
  and Lutheran) along with religious services had also performed an 
  educational, social, traditionally charitable and cultural activity 
  disposing only of their own funds. The educational activity is 
  nation-wide, from kindergarten to the Theological Institute. 
  The social charitable activity provides supplies in hospitals and 
  old people's homes. The cultural activity is performed in printing 
  shops, museums and associations.

  As a result of the 1921 Agrarian Reform, 85% of the lands belonging 
  to the churches was nationalized and the life of the self-supporting 
  churches was paralyzed (Decree #. 3911/1919,modifying Decree #. 
  2478/1920 and the Law of Garofled issued on July 23, 1921 
  - see Appendix No. 1).
  

  
  2.  The period between 1945-1989:
      ============================ 
      

  The communist, nationalist, atheist nationalization of 1948 took over 
  the remaining lands, estates and cultural values of the churches. 
  The only properties left were the churches and some apartment houses 
  (see Appendix No. 2). Most of the clergymen were put to jail. 
  The monks belonging to different orders, which had been abolished, 
  were sent to compulsory settlements. Due to the lack of an adequate 
  religious training for clergymen the churches hardly survived until 1989,
  when everything had to be started from the beginning.


  3. After 1989:
     ==========



  The expectations related to the 1989 changes were not fulfilled because 
  the government did not present the Parliament the draft of law 
  submitted by the 14 legally recognized churches - including the Orthodox
  Church - although the draft was submitted as soon as 1990 and it was an
  organic and basic draft of law. 
  
  The churches rejected the modifications proposed by the government, 
  because it objected to the return of the nationalized and confiscated 
  properties and it wanted to reduce religious education merely to 
  clergymen training. The Hungarian community submitted its objections 
  concerning the Law of Cult to the government, the Parliament and 
  the Minority Council.
  
  
  4. More detailed examples:
     ======================


  Examples of properties belonging to the Hungarian Churches in Romania 
  which were nationalized in 1948 or confiscated and not returned to 
  their rightful owners. In this manner the renewal ofheir educational and 
  charitable activity required by the society and their self-supporting 
  and beneficent functioning are hindered:

  a) Estates (monasteries, convents, lands, forests)
     -------
  The Agrarian Law allows the allotting of 5 ha of land to the churches 
  but only in the countryside. The convents can have a land no larger 
  than 10 ha, but only in the countryside. Most of the convents are in 
  towns so the situation of their properties is not clarified. 
  
  In the Alba Iulia Diocese the Roman Catholic Church had convents and 
  25 religious orders for both males and females.
  
  In Oradea the property belonging to Viczes nuns should be returned, 
  while the Orthodox nunneries, convents and monasteries were not 
  nationalized and so their return is not a matter of concern. 
  The case is qualified as religious discrimination and anti-nationalistic 
  manifestation.
  
  b) Buildings (schools, hospitals, old people's homes, parish-houses, 
     ---------  
  apartment houses)

  The number of nationalized church schools in Romania is 1593 out of 
  which: 
  
  531 Reformed, 
  468 Roman Catholic, 
  266 Lutheran, 
  141Orthodox, 
  124 Jewish, 
  34 Unitarian and 
  17 Greek Catholic. 
  

  
  Law #. 176/1948 concerning the nationalization of schools was illegally 
  applied to the parish houses as well and they were fiscated in 90 cases 
  (e.g. Roman Catholic Diocese in Alba Iulia). All of them were official 
  residence. 
  
  The Roman Catholic Episcopal Palace in Oradea was confiscated 
  and became state museum. Still there is no museum presenting the 
  Hungarians in Transylvania.
  
  Eviction action was taken against the Reformed Episcopate of 
  Kiralyhagomellek (Episcopatul Reformat de pe linga Piatra Craiului)
  in order to force it to leave its own building.
 
  In Alba Iulia no college building was returned to the church although 
  the reopened school needs it.
  
  c) Cultural Values (paintings, books, relics, museums or museum pieces)
     ---------------

  Koroknyai Otto's painting entitled King Matthias in front of Vienna 
  (24 square meters) could be seen on a wall in the Roman Catholic 
  Episcopal Palace in Oradea. It was taken off, rolled over, it has not 
  been exhibited or given back to its owner. 

  The Batthyaneum in Alba Iulia, which had a library, a museum and an 
  observatory famous in whole Europe (founded by Count Batthany Ignac, 
  Bishop of Transylvania, in 1791) was also confiscated.

  The private library and the documents belonging to Bishop Marton Aron 
  were confiscated and were not returned. 

  This fact prevents the procedure of his beatification.
  
  d) Archives
     --------

  According to Educational Law #. 150/1950 and Law #. 2698/1952 issued by 
  the Ministry of the Interior the archive documents and registers of 
  birth belonging to more than 1200 churches and parishes were taken 
  away. 
  
  Unless these are returned the continuity of the ecclesiastical life is 
  hindered and the proofs of the past are absent.

  
  _________________________________________________________________


 
   
   
   Appendix no. 1.

   The expropriation (in virtue of the law from 23 of July 1921) of the
   arable land properties belonging to the Hungarian churchesChurchBefore 
1921After 1921

Expropriation
                   (acres)      (acres)       (acres)
Roman catholic     290.50       712.994       277.513 
Calvinist            2.148       36.926           25.222  
Unitarian           17.916        6.527           11.389
Hungarian Lutheran   1.041          968                  73

Total               71.612       57.415          314.197



  Note:
     
     * 1) In Transylvania there are 8.194.367 acres of arable land, from
       which 5% was held by mentioned churches, and after 1921 remain
       (approximately) just 1%.
     * 2) The possessions of the Orthodox church are excepted from
       expropriation.
     * 3) The dates are gathered from the authentic extracts from
       cadastral registers of the mentioned churches.

     _________________________________________________________________


   Appendix no. 2.
   ============

   Properties of the Hungarian Churches Nationalized in 1948

A - schools
B - boarding schools
C - teacher's apartments
D - hospitals, orphanages
E - culture houses
F - convents
G - lodging houses 
H - residences of priests   
I - episcopal palaces
     
Church                 A     B     C     D     E     F    G     H     I

Roman catholic       468    20     -     9     -    70   42    28     1
Calvinist            531     6    20     7    51     -   20   136     1
Unitarian            342     -     -    14     -     -    -    12     
- -     -
Hungarian Lutheran     8     -     -     -     6     -    -     -     - 
Other                  2     2     -     -    14     -    -     -     -

Total              1.351    28    20    30    71    70   62   176     2

compared to:
- ---------
Orthodox             141     7
Greek catholic        17
   
   

Note:

   In 1948 the Romanian State nationalized 1593 denominational and      
   private schools (order #. 176/1948 of the Great National Assembly).


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From: Aristides Kinigopoulos >
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 09:22:58 -0500 (EST)
Subject: HAL: (no subject)

Dear Sir
I would like to have a list of Universities situated in Budapest
with accounting departments
                   Sincerelly
                 Aris Kinigopoulos

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From: Elmer Kuber >
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 09:33:30 -0600
Subject: HAL: apologies

Apologies for my e-mail mistakes, sending private mail to the list. I will
try not to repeat my mistakes.

Elne'ze't Bocsa'nat

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From: 
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 09:18:01 -0500
Subject: HAL: Visit to Bo"s (Gabcikovo)

Dear Colleagues,

The Hungarian language American weekly (Népszava) will publish the attached
report on my trip to Bos (Gabcikovo). As this report was written in accented
Hungarian, I am distributing it in that  form to our bilingual lobby. My
apologies to those for whom this is a problem.
       Népszava is the oldest Hungarian newspaper anywhere in the world
(including Hungary), it was founded in Pennsylvania in 1894. It is also the
largest Hungarian paper in the USA. It has 4,200 subscribers (about 42,000
readers). It is published on 28 pages, costs $1/per copy and can be ordered
at 12 Wright Court, East Brunswick, NJ 08816. The Népszava has already
reported the work of the Hungarian Lobby and if you can afford to subscribe,
you would be supporting an old Hungarian institution. The largest Hungarian
language paper on the American Continent, printed in 11,000 copies in Canada,
is Hungarian Life (Magyar Élet).

Best regards: Béla Lipták


                                1996, január 31, Látogatás Bo"so"n

Azért, hogy ne egyedül járjam Szlovákiát, velem jön egy pesti környezetvédo"
 és nyugdíjas biológia tanárno" , Arnóti Gabriella. Illetve csak jönne, mert
a magyar határ o"rök, a lejárt útlevele miatt, feltartóztatják. Így, mire
átjutok a szlovák oldalra, az ottani elleno"rzéskor már egyedül ülök a
kocsiban.Így aztán már csak én hallom, amikor ízes magyarsággal megszólal a
szlovák határo"r:  Adj Isten Szenátor Úr!  Na mondom, ez meg kivel téveszt
össze? De azért szólni nem szólok, csak úgy  szenátorosan  biccentek neki,
mire O"  nagyot szalutál, én meg megnyomom a gázt.
       Egyedül hajtok a hótengerré fagyott csallóközi úton. Az életnek semmi
jele. Áthajtok elo"ször Szapon, aztán Csiliznyárádon, s végül elérem a
95%-ban ma is magyarok lakta árpádkori települést, Bo"st. Nagy, kék táblán
díszeleg a helyiség új, szlovák neve: Gabci kovo. O"  egy kommunista partizán
volt. A Gabcikovo nevét hirdeto"  kék tábla alatt, jóval kisebb fehér táblán,
látható az ezer éves eredeti név is: Bo"s.
       Sokszor megjártam én már ezt az utat. Voltam itt busz és autó
karavánnal, magyar és idegen TV-sekkel, környezetvédo"kkel, de így
szálmagamban most járok itt elo"ször. Az ero"mu"  beton monstrumához érve
szokatlan kép fogad: Nincs rendo"rség, nincsenek farkaskutyák vagy
rabszállító kocsik, csak békésen tébláboló, többnyire magyarúl beszélgeto",
munkások vannak.

	Életveszélyes A Gát  

Így aztán kényelmesen végigfényképezem a tragikus állapotban lévo"
 ero"mu"vet. A tíz emelet magasra tornyosított víz szöko"kutakat formálva
spriccel át a megrepedezett betonfalakon (Kép #1). Nem az a kérdés, hogy
összedo"l-e ez a  mu" , csak az, hogy mikor töri át a gátat ez a 200 millió
köbméternyi víztömeg?
      Ahogy megyek tovább, nyitva marad a szám: A két év elötti ukrán
hajóbaleset okozta károkat a mai napig nem tudták rendbehozni,
használhatatlanúl áll a belso"  hajó-zsilip. Aztán látom, hogy jég
tornyosodik a külso"  zsilipkapuban, nem mu"ködik az sem (Kép #2).  Mi
történt itt?  - kérdezem az egyik kábelen dolgozó, már deresedo"  bajszú
magyar villanyszerelo"t, aki elo"ször körülnéz, s amikor látja, hogy csak
magunkban vagyunk, akkor válaszol:  "Ja kérem, ezeknek a bölcseknek az már
nem jutott az eszébe, hogy a Duna télen befagy. Mánpedig, ha itt jég van,
akkor hajózás, az nincs!" 
      És tényleg, csak most értem meg, hogy mit is látok! A gát, melyro"l azt
mesélték, hogy javítani fogja a dunai hajózást, leállította azt! Az ero"mu"
 feletti öböl befagyott, ezért áll a hajóforgalom. Szinte hihetetlen, hogy a
20-ik század végén, Európá szívében olyan zsilipet építettek, mely nem képes
leengedni a jeget. Nevetve mondja a villanyszerel : " Melegvízzel
locsolgatják a Duna jegét, azt hiszik attól majd megolvad!"  Nekem üvölteni
lenne kedvem, de befogom a számat. Nem akarom felhívni magamra a figyelmet,
nem akarok megfürödni a 10-emeletnyi mélységben örvénylo"  jeges vízben.  
	
A Halálraitélt Falvak

Most megkondul a déli harangszó a bo"si templom tornyában. Mivel a szlovák
környezetvédo"kkel csak félketto"kor találkozom, van még ido"m kiszaladni
Nagybodakra. Az üzemvízcsatorna három magyar falut, Dobrogazt, Nagybodakot és
Vajkát, elvágta a külvilágtól. Én Nagybodak polgármesterét, a fiatal és
rátermett Lukovics Lászlót készülök ott meglátogatni.
        Mikor lefordulok a gátról, azt sem látom hol az út? Itt aztán nem
volt hókotrás! Úgy vezetek, hogy a telefonpóznák állásából igyekszem
megsaccolni, hogy hol lehet az út? Közben azon imádkozom, hogy be ne csússzak
az árokba, mert akkor aztán nincs látogatás, akkor itt az árokban alszom!
Végre feltu"nik a falu jelzo"táblája, a nagy és fehér táblán ott a szlovák
név: Bodiky, a kisebb kék táblán meg ott áll magyarúl is, hogy Nagybodak (Kép
#3).
       Nagybodak ma már nem  nagy,  a 930 lakosból 570 elvándorolt,
elmenekült. Maradtak itt 360-an, többségük fáradt, öreg emberek. A
halálraitélt és becsapott falu iskolájában összesen 14 kisdiák lézeng. A falu
csaknem szinmagyar, egyetlen szlovák család él csak benne. Nagybodak
lakosainak azt igérték az ero"mu"  építo"i, hogy ha nem tiltakoznak, ha
csendben maradnak, akkor itt lesz gazdasági fejlesztés, lesz víztisztító,
kapnak kedvezményes buszjáratot, kompot vagy alagutat, na meg olcsó,
kedvezményes áramot.  Aztán ezt kaptunk!  - használja a nemzetközileg ismert
karjelet a polgármester.
	
Hazudnak Rendületlenül

Mint tudjuk, alagut csak a kábeleknek épült, s az is olyan mino"ségu", hogy
ma már tele van vizzel. Kompot csak Vajka kapott, s az is többet áll, mint
megy: leáll, ha szél van, leáll a ködben, eso"ben meg ázik rajta az ember,
mert ugye fedelet, azt már nem kapott. A jó hír az, mondja a fiatal,
energikus polgármester:  "Hogy a földeket visszakaptuk és a kolhoz átalakúlt
holland tipusú valódi szövetkezetté. A gond persze a szállítás, mert hát ugye
szigetté váltunk. Az aki 1992 elött 15 perc alatt Dunaszerdahelyen volt, most
napi 2 órát buszozhat." 
         Öt perces késéssel érek vissza a gátra, a megbeszélt találkozási
helyünkre. Az ero"mu"vet ismerteto"  térképnél (Kép #4) már ott állnak,
va'rnak a szlovák környezetvédo"k. Úgy beszélgetünk, mintha nem ismerne'nk
egyma'st, s csak a térképet tanulma'nyonna'nk egyu"tt, magyaráznánk
egymásnak. Kitüno", hiteles dokumentációt kapok to"lük a gát okozta
környezeti és egészségügyi kárakat illeto"en, melyeket pár nap múlva át is
adok majd a hágai biróságnak. O"k is nagy örömmel hallják, hogy az Interneten
megindult a Duna-mento"  akció és azt is, hogy a 9 környezetvédo"  szervezet
közös beadványát elfogadta (amicus curiae alapon) a bíróság. Míg
beszélgetünk, a szemük körbejár, lesik, hogy figyelnek-e bennünket?
Fényképro"l, neveik említéséro"l persze szó sem lehet. Hiába, nem
életbiztosítás Szlovákiában környezetvédo"nek lenni. Még kiosztom a
Kiegyezési Tervünk legfrisebb változatát aztán, mint akik végre megértettük,
hogy mit is mutat a térkép, egyesével és különbözo"  irányokba indulva
szétszéledünk.

	Csak A Címer Miatt..

Ahogy sétálok vissza a kis fehér kocsimhoz, megszólít egy harcsabajuszos
fiatalember:  "Csak a címer miatt szólok."  - mondja, rámutatva mellemen az
elmaradhatatlan Kossuth címeremre.  "Kérem, mondja meg a túloldalon, hogy
bátyámat kirugással fenyegette a szlovák maszek, ha magyar iskolába meri
iratni a kis Jóskát. Mondja meg, hogy csinájjanak mán valamit, mert illen a
kommunizmusba sem vót!"  Kemény a kézszorítása, érdes a tenyere, s én most
olyan szégyent érzek, mint tegnap, amikor nem álltam be a hólapátoló pestiek
közé.
        Visszafelé, a határon felszedem a békésen várakozó Arnóti Gabriellát.
Míg én Szlovákiában jártam, O"  kiolvasott néhány ujságot, s most az
érdekesebb híreket meséli. Megemlíti, hogy a Pápa jelen lesz Pannonhalma ezer
éves évfordulójának megünneplésén, emléktáblát állít az ott megmentett ezer
zsidó származású magyar fiatalnak, s bejelenti Szent István feleségének,
Gizellának szentté avatását. Késo"bb arról mesél, hogy Demszki Gábor el
akarja adni a fo"város tulajdonában lévo"  Margit Szigetet, meg arról, hogy
Surányi György, a Nemzeti Bank elnöke éppen százszor annyit ($10,000- t) kap
havonta, mint az O"  nyugdíja.
          Bizony késo"  este van, mire Pesten leszurkolom a $108-os
kocsibért, ami közel kétszerese annak amibe Amerikában került volna az egy
napi bérlés. Aztán amíg a földalatti várótermében álldogálunk, nézegetek egy,
a  népnevelo"   ido"kre emlékezteto"  vetített képet, melyen néger és indiai,
zsidó és arab, cigány és kínai arcok mosolygnak a megszívlelend  felirat
felett, mely így hangzik:  "Légy türelmes, elvégre Te is más vagy!"
 Mosolyogva rábólintok, s erre mellettem megszólal egy csizmás férfi:  "Azért
mán csak úgy mutatóba, közülünk is odasúvaszthattak vóna egyet!?" 
        Este kijön rajtam a fáradtság, otthon maradok. Faludy Gyurka u'j
könyvét forgatom, a TV kapcsolóját tekergetem. Az MTV-n sport mu"sor, a Duna
TV-n a széki népszokásokat mutatják be, hirdetés nem szakítja meg a
programokat, csak a mu"sor végén, az óra utolsó perceiben hirdetnek.
Kellemesen telik az ido". 40 év ide vagy oda, én itthon vagyok.
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From:  (Richard E. Sipos)
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 10:25:58 -0500 (EST)
Subject: HAL: mail new friends

I am a 28 year old young man, living in Toronto, of Hungarian origin.  I 
would like to use the Internet to get in touch with other people of 
Hungarian origin around the work just to chat.  Although my Hungarian is 
not very good, I would be pleased to chat either in English or Hungarian 
just to improve my ability in this beautiful language.  Also, if you are 
of Hungarian origin and would like to improve your written English, I 
would be more than happy to help you.  I am open to almost any topic you 
suggest, and I hope to hear from you soon!  
- -- 
Richard E. Sipos
The world is wonderful and so are you
Thanks for writing
See you soon!  

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------------------------------

From:  (Jonathan Rand)
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 10:26:07 -0500 (EST)
Subject: HAL: LA Tanchaz

Los Angeles Hungarian Dance Parties

March 9, 1996
April 6, 1996

Gypsy Camp
3265 Motor Ave.   
Los Angeles, CA.

Teaching  7:30- 9:00

Tanchaz   9:00-12:00

$6.00


No partners needed
 of *** Hungarian American List Digest ***  V3 #66
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In article >,  (Wally
Keeler) wrote:


> Take a hint efischer. Mr Joe Pannonescu is high octane excetylene to your 
> little Bic flames, because, after all is said and done, Joe is 
> well-Hungary. If you want to taunt him, there will be a chain-saw 
> massacre that will turn your bytes into little itty bitty binary bits.

:-)

oh Subtly Ironic One : as you know, i am quaking in my boots.

pitiful it is too
my boots are rather nice ones
and i would hate to lose my
standing

:-)

ef

-- 
NWHQ
http://www.knosso.com/NWHQ/

In article >,  (Peter
Szaszvari) wrote:


> Itt kerem szeretettel emigrans illetve atmenetileg kulfoldon dolgozo magyarok
 
> anyazzak egymast jobb dolguk nem leven. Egy a kozos bennu(n)k mind jobban 
> tudjak(-juk) mi van es mi lenne jo Magyarurszagon mint akik ott elnek.

hey hey peter! azert nem kellene mindenkit egy ecsettel mazolni! :-)

en peldaul meg soha sem anyaztam. oke, parszor apaztam, de mindig udvariasan :-
)

es igazan nem tudom mi lenne a legjobb magyarorszagon. csak azt hogy itten
is, ottan is, az emberek azt a szot hogy "szabadsag", egeszen
irracionalisan (ez egy magyar szo?) fogjak fel. szoval hogy nekik
"szabadsag' meg "enyem" egyertelmu. es fojton kiabaljak az *o*
szabadsagukat.

sokfele szabadsag van. es sokfele igazsag van. de a kiabalastol mart
egeszen megsuketul az ember.

 
> Az otthon elo olvasoknak egy dolguk marad, gurulni a rohogestol latvan  mi 
> lesz az emberbol kulfoldon es erezni: JOBB ITTHON!

nezd, az ember mindenhol ember. ott se jobb, itt se jobb. ijesmiben nincs
olyan hogy jobb. talan csak az hogy azt fujja amit mar (familiar...
familiar... gyorsan a szotart... aha!) megszokott. minden mas, ugy
latszik, felelmetes.

(bocs, korulbelul olyan roszul irok magyarul mind te angolul :-)... az
itteni magyar barataim adtak egy szotarat, azt bongeszem)

ef

-- 
NWHQ
http://www.knosso.com/NWHQ/

Hello Richard,

I am also a Hungarian origin, and wold like to keep in touch with other
Hungarians.
Leave me a note in my mailbox 

Talk to you soon.

>Ivan Marinov > wrote:
>
>>Tibor Odor > wrote:
>>>On 28 Feb 1996 Gabor Elek wrote:
>
> [deleted]

>>Ere megkerdezik, hat akkor mi vagy?
>
>Szoval oregem, csak annyit tudok mondani, hogy naci a jo kurva anyad.

   Oh..what liberality(oops..) of language ....really... 
>
>Remelem valaszom kielegito volt, es sikerult meggyozni allaspontomrol.

   -- brilliant reasoning!...what sophistication!
>
>A legjobbakat,
>
>Odor Tibor
>
ME

Hi, 

I hope it's okay to ask this type of question in this newsgroup.

My g-grandfather, Samuel Demjen, was born in BATYU Hungary in 1866. 
I cannot find this town on a map or atlas anywhere.  Is it still part 
of Hungary and if it is, where is it?

Also, does anybody know the origins of the name FOFFROVICH? ie. is it
Hungarian? This was my g-grandmother's maiden name but I don't have any 
other information except she came from Hungary in 1893 to New Jersey, 
USA.

Any help at all would be appreciated.

thank you
Karen Foster

Igazolni tudna valaki azt hazulrol, amit a magyar jobb-
oldal mond az otthoni on-jelolt ujnaci vezerrol, Szabo Albertrol?
Marmint, hogy o Izraelbol jott volna Magyarorszagra.

Koszonettel,
Pannon J.

In article > Peter Szaszvari,
 writes:
:Is there a psychiatrist reading this newsgroup?
:I would be very interested of  the opinion of an
:expert of this kind of things.

You mean your very letter or more broadly: your contribution to
this newsgroup ? You are a kinda borderline case I guess.  You
won't be locked up into loony-bin if you are examined on your
better days. Otherwise....

>Seriously, there is a lot to study here!

I seriously agree.

Tamás

Tamas wrote:

>AFAIK, the SF got the AVO's ex-headquater on Andrássy street for
>covering the liability on gov't side. 

Now, after buying the archives of Radio Free Europe, there is this
rather odd aquisition!  The former headquarters of the dreaded communist
secret police, the AVO/AVH!  Does Soros perhaps know of some hidden
secrets still buried in its dungeons he hopes to get his hands on before
anybody else?  Why _THAT_ building of all places?  C'mon conspiracy
theorists, help me out here a bit!  What's wrong with this picture? ;-)

Joe