Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 809
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-10-06
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Hungary and environment (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
2 Test (mind)  1 sor     (cikkei)
3 Canada and the Hungarian Revolution Forty Year Ago; par (mind)  167 sor     (cikkei)
4 Your God!!! (mind)  46 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Cultural superiority (mind)  32 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Definition of politics (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Amazing America (mind)  4 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Amazing America (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: Amazing America (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: Amazing America (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: In support.... (mind)  48 sor     (cikkei)
12 test (mind)  1 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: Amazing America (mind)  41 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Sophistry (mind)  45 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Peter Soltesz (mind)  36 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: Amazing America (mind)  123 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: Cultural Superiority (mind)  79 sor     (cikkei)
18 Canada and the Hungarian Revolution Forty Year Ago; par (mind)  136 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: Amazing America (mind)  100 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: Amazing America (mind)  128 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: Cultural superiority (mind)  94 sor     (cikkei)
22 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary and an unrelated questio (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
23 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary and an unrelated questio (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
24 *** BULI *** Hungarian Picnic - Washington, DC Oct/05 (mind)  85 sor     (cikkei)
25 Amazing America (mind)  41 sor     (cikkei)
26 Thank You (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
27 Re: Denmark (mind)  40 sor     (cikkei)
28 Re: Amazing America (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
29 Re: Cultural Superiority (mind)  53 sor     (cikkei)
30 trading in clothes, WHO? (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
31 Suicide in Hungary - (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
32 Re: Peter Soltesz (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
33 Re: Amazing America (mind)  39 sor     (cikkei)
34 Re: Amazing America (mind)  106 sor     (cikkei)
35 Re: Cultural Superiority (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
36 Re: Cultural Superiority (mind)  59 sor     (cikkei)
37 Re: Amazing America (mind)  54 sor     (cikkei)
38 Re: Peter Soltesz (mind)  33 sor     (cikkei)
39 Re: Definition of politics (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
40 Definition of politics (mind)  50 sor     (cikkei)
41 Re: Amazing America (mind)  55 sor     (cikkei)
42 Re: Sophistry (mind)  41 sor     (cikkei)
43 Amazing Hungarians in the US (Was: Re: Amazing America) (mind)  82 sor     (cikkei)
44 Re: Cultural Superiority (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
45 Re: Sophistry (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
46 Re: Amazing America (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
47 Re: Cultural Superiority (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
48 Canada and the Hungarian Revolution (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
49 Re: Canada and the Hungarian Revolution (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
50 Re: Cultural Superiority (mind)  34 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Hungary and environment (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Kedves mindenki!

I'm looking for opinions about the current state of the environment in
Hungary.  How would you describe the environmental movement since 1990?
What are the major problems facing Hungary's environmental activists?
What is the prognosis?

Koszonom!
Elizabeth Holden
+ - Test (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Test
+ - Canada and the Hungarian Revolution Forty Year Ago; par (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Peter I. Hidas

DAY TEN

Thursday, 1 November 1956.
Earlier rumours of Russian troop movements confirmed as armoured columns
moved into Hungary from Rumania and the Ukraine. Nagy denounced Warsaw
Pact, declared Hungary's neutrality and called on United Nations for
support.
Calendar of Events in Hungary prepared by the staff of the Department of
External Affairs for use in connection with the Special Session of the
Canadian House of Commons: November 26, 1956.(1)

        The planned Canadian-Hungarian Legion frightened not the Russian
invaders of Hungary but the hesitant Magyar emigr=E9 leaders and their civil
servant patrons in Ottawa. In the morning Pearson's representatives met
Hungarian leaders in the minister's office. The president of the
Canadian-Hungarian Federation said that their leadership was "discouraging
individuals from attempting to go to Hungary as volunteers. They are taking
their names and addresses and asking them to stand by in case their
services might be needed later. They are firmly of the opinion that it
would be foolish to encourage this movement and think that after a week or
two the fervour of all except a few individuals will have dissipated."(2)
The ministry, however, left nothing to chance. R.A.D. Ford, head of the
European Division at External Affairs, informed Pearson that he had taken
steps in favour of using administrative delays to avoid issuing
certificates of identity for travel to Hungary.(3) By then Ford had written
to the Consular Division of his ministry asking them to sabotage any
Hungarian travel request. "We understand that you are preparing a
memorandum for the Under-Secretary on the question of issuing passports or
certificates of identity to applicants  seeking to go to the Hungarian area
and that you wish to include a section on the political aspects of the
problem."  "This would seem to be the worst possible time for even a token
force of volunteers from Canada or the United States to attempt to join the
rebels in Hungary." Their presence could provide excuse for repression;
their arrival could endanger negotiations and could widen the conflict in
the area. The creation of administrative difficulties re passports would be
useful. Individuals should be encouraged to postpone their trips and, in
any case, you should delay or refuse applications, advised Ford.(4)

        The Hungarian legion affair, despite the potential to become an
international embarrassment, was only one of the obstacles to the immediate
signing of the Canadian-Hungarian trade agreement. At the cabinet meeting
it was reported that Pearson had been asked by the head of the Hungarian
delegation if the signature of the trade agreement could be deferred until
the latter had had an opportunity to communicate with their government from
Paris. The Minister recommended, with the concurrence of the Minister of
=46inance and the Acting Minister of Trade and Commerce, that the Canadian
Ambassador in France now be  authorized to sign.(5) External Affairs
immediately telegraphed the Paris Embassy. "A trade agreement has been
negotiated in Ottawa between Hungary and Canada which must be signed in
Paris to allow Mr. Barab=E1s, head of the trade delegation, time to contact
his government. The agreement is to be signed by Mr. Desy and Mr. Barab=E1s.
=46ull powers have been issued authorizing Mr. Desy to sign."(6)  The proble=
m
lay with Barabas, who did not know for sure on whose behalf he would sign -
Imre Nagy's government or the previous regime.

        Paris was not to be the centre of Canadian diplomatic action this
day. The Security Council went into session in New York. The Canadian
delegation reported little chance of an agreement on the Hungarian
question. Unexpectedly, the first secretary of the Hungarian mission turned
up as a representative of Hungary and was queried by the Chinese and the
American delegations.  He had a telegram from Nagy accrediting him as
Hungarian representative at the emergency special session of the General
Assembly but not accrediting him to the Security Council. He was expected
to be allowed to sit but not to speak until his credentials could be
clarified by the Secretary. Assuming a Soviet veto,  a General Assembly
meeting on the topic became likely on Sunday or Monday.(7) The Canadian
High Commissioner in London discussed the question of UN action with  the
head of the Northern Department in the British Foreign Office. The British
welcomed the declaration of Hungarian neutrality but expressed  no desire
to provide guarantees.  The UK delegation was instructed to let the USA set
the pace and decide on tactics.(8)  In New Delhi the Canadian High
Commissioner, continued pressuring India to condemn the Soviet intervention
in Hungary. Reid, according to his own testimony,  was the only diplomatic
representative in Delhi who had expressed criticism of Indian inaction
concerning Soviet aggression in Hungary.  He had done this without explicit
instructions from Pearson.(9) At the UN no independent Canadian foreign
policy  on Hungary had been declared. Many Canadians wanted one.

        Events in Budapest deeply embarrassed the communist movement in
Canada;  "...the presence of Soviet troops in Budapest served to infuriate
the people and spread the revolt. National self-determination is an
inviolable principle due to every Hungarian as it is to every
democratic-minded person in this world. It is our hope that peace will be
restored, but a black mark has been left on the name of socialism,"
editorialized a communist paper in Toronto.(10)  The Hungarian-Canadian
communist paper celebrated the departure of the Red Army from Budapest and
appealed to all Hungarians to aid their mother country.(11)

        Most Canadians had begun to pay more attention to events in
Hungary. At a large rally in Toronto at Massey Hall "the cheers were for
the statement of Allan Grossman (PC, Toronto-St. Andrew), who said Canada
must let Hungary and millions still under Communist tyranny know that not
only moral support but the kind of support that wins battles is
forthcoming." Mayor Phillips spoke for Toronto of the need to contribute
moral support, wealth and lives. People contributed  on the spot to the
Canadian Red Cross Hungarian Relief Fund.  A wire was sent to St Laurent
expressing gratitude but a demand was made for international guarantees for
Hungary.(12)  J. Leger, the Under-Secretary of State for External Affairs,
assured the Rt. Rev. Steven Horvath, pastor of the Welland Hungarians, that
the Canadian government would try to alleviate the plight of Hungary and
promote sympathy for its people.(13) He offered blood plasma and medical
supplies to the Canadian Hungarian Veterans Association of Welland,
Ontario, but warned them:

...while we understand your interest in sending volunteers to Hungary it is
possible that such action might raise legal difficulties because of the
=46oreign Enlistment Act of Canada which forbids Canadians and aliens living
in Canada to enlist in foreign armed forces involved in conflict abroad, to
recruit Canadian residents for this purpose, or to transport them."(14)

        Regardless, most Canadian-Hungarians paid more attention to what
Pearson was saying and doing. They  credited him for keeping the world's
attention on Hungary. A popular Hungarian weekly even invented a Pearson
statement which stated that if the Soviets would not give in to world
pressure, then the Hungarian freedom fighters will receive the armed
support of the West.(15)

NOTES

(1)  NAC, RG 2, 90-91/154, Box 47, File H-17-1 (b).

(2) Ibid.

(3)Volunteers from Canada for Hungary, R.A.D.Ford to the Consular Division,
        1 November 1956, NAC, RG 25, 86-87/360, Box 32, File 8619-40, pt.3;
from November 1, 1956 to November 7, 1956.

(4)Ibid.

(5)Cabinet Conclusions, 1, November 1956, NAC, RG 2,  Vol. 5775, Canada
Cabinet Conclusions, Top Secret, Vol.51, 3 Aug. 1956-3 Nov. 1956.

(6) Commercial Agreement between Hungary and Canada; Most Favoured Nation
Treatment, post-war, 1 November 1956, NAC, RG 25,  86/87/360, Box 62, File
9376-A-40, part 2; from March 8, 1956, to May 30, 1960.

(7)From the Permanent Mission in New York to External Affairs, 1 November
1956,NAC, RG 25, 86-87/360, Box 32, File 8619-40, pt.3; from November 1,
1956 to November 7, 1956.

(8)From London to External Affairs, 1 November 1956, NAC, RG 25 86-87/360
Box 32, File 8619-40, pt.3; from November 1, 1956 to November 7, 1956.

(9)Reid, op.cit.  46.

(10)Vochenblatt, 1 November 1956, NAC, RG 25, 86-87/360, Box 32, File
8619-40, pt.3; from November 1, 1956, to November 7, 1956.

(11)Kanadai Magyar Munkas, 1 November 1956.

(12(The Globe and Mail, 2 November 1956.

(13) 2 November 1956, NAC, RG 2, 90-91/154 vol.108 H-17-1.

(14)The Under-Secretary of State for External Affairs to Nicholas Esso,
Canadian Hungarian Veterans Association, Welland, Ont., November 2, 1956,
NAC, RG 2, 90-91/154, vol.108, File H-17-1.

(15)Kanadai Magyarsag, 3 November 1956.



Peter I. Hidas
Montreal
+ - Your God!!! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Wed, 2 Oct 1996, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:

> First let me state that I find it quite interesting that both Aniko
> Dunford and Marina Pflieger (both Canadians) have fallen from being
> god fearing people.

  You can have your fear inducing, revengeful, and punishing God. If
  I had to choose, I would go with the loving, caring,  and peaceful
  God. Your faith must be very shaky though.  Otherwise you wouldn't
  need to waste  all this time and  energy to prove  how strong your
  faith is. How sad!!! I realize that thinking is difficult, but why
  don't you try it. You may even like it.

>                        Please do not tell my kids (or any kids for that
> matter) that they should know about killing others nor themselves -- it
> is WRONG!

  What a hypocrite you are. If you are so concerned about life, what
  is your stand on capital punishment? You and your ilk support life
  selectively, when it serves your purpose.But you gleefully applaud
  killing people you disapprove of.  And in the case of capital pun-
  ishment you are not whining about  "my money is being spent on the
  killing of people".

> But there is a cost! YOU will find out one day the wrath of GOD...

  I really pity you!

> This is part of your comment to George -
>
> <<<<< You should not be astonished at us but rather you...perhaps it is
> being upside down in the hot sun that is cause of your problems.

  I would be ashamed if this was the best I could do. But, it seems,
  you don't have any shame.

> One day I will disclose something that many already know about the UK,
> America, and the British people that will shock you! Then you will have
> to make a choice, but no longer will you be ignorant about who and what
> WE are!
>
> Peter Soltesz
>
  Really? We know what you are. An intolerant person who is unable to
  think for himself.
                         Amos
+ - Re: Cultural superiority (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article <v01540b00ae77d1df9062@[198.168.48.47]>, "Peter I. Hidas"
> writes:

>At 9:45 PM 10/1/96, Stowewrite wrote:
> When, then, does deportation de facto become deportation de
>>jure, at least in the court of opinion presided over by professional
>>historians?
>>Sam Stowe
>
>Let me answer you with a section of a speech of mine delivered in
Montreal
>in 1994.
>
>

You haven't answered my question at all. When I first posted the statement
that deportations started before 1944, you took exception with me. Then,
when Andra's Kornai and others took exception with you, you posted your
speech. It's obvious that deportations did occur in Hungary on a
widespread scale prior to March, 1944. Fine. But I want to know why you
were even tempted to make your first claim. I am granting the possibility
that there is some objective, normative definition of "deportation" that
makes what happened prior to the German occupation in March, 1944, unequal
to or incomparable to what occurred after that date. The only difference I
can see is that the Nazis were more thorough and efficient than the
homegrown Hungarian effort.
Sam Stowe

"The true champion of justice, if he intends to survive
even for a short time, must necessarily confine
himself to private life and leave politics alone."
-- Plato, "Apology"
+ - Re: Definition of politics (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, 
(Andrew Rszsa) writes:

>I apologize for the mildly off-color language, but I am forwarding
>this as received:

Heh, heh, heh...no apology necessary, Bandi. I gotta clean it up before I
can run it in print, however.
Sam Stowe

"The true champion of justice, if he intends to survive
even for a short time, must necessarily confine
himself to private life and leave politics alone."
-- Plato, "Apology"
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

While I am neither a liberal nor a conservative ( somewhere in-between),
it sure appears that it is the conservative that try very hard and
stubbornly to force everybody else to live by their conservative
standards.  I guess they think they do the others a favor.
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Zoltan Szekely
> writes:

>He showed a segment of a 'public school education'
>event, taped on video. 10-12 years old girls were
>'educated' about oral sex by a liberal looking young
>woman wearing leather jacket. As we had to learn it,
>the parent of these girls were not informed about
>what kind of 'public education' was offered to their
>dear daughters.

A "liberal looking young woman wearing leather jacket?" That sounds like
the drama teacher...My God! Our children are being taught sex education by
thespians!
Sam Stowe

"The true champion of justice, if he intends to survive
even for a short time, must necessarily confine
himself to private life and leave politics alone."
-- Plato, "Apology"
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On 3 Oct 1996 15:43:12 -0400,  (Stowewrite) wrote:


>A "liberal looking young woman wearing leather jacket?" That sounds like
>the drama teacher...My God! Our children are being taught sex education by
>thespians!
>Sam Stowe

I am SURE that Trey (my 10-year-old) would prefer an ecdysiast. :-)

Bandi
> =============================================================
      Andrew J. Rszsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
                 <mailto:>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
          Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
> =============================================================
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Why do you Christians label people "Godless" simply because they don't
believe in your perception of God?

Peter, why do you automatically assume whatever Zoltan quotes?  If Rev.
Kennedy is telling the truth about any existing public school, would it
be an extreme hardship for him to name the actual school(s).  You people
have to be smarter than just simply believe what others claim.

Lajos
+ - Re: In support.... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article
>, "Peter
A. Soltesz" > writes:

> I do not want my kids to be taught in
>school about suicide and other murders, It is wrong period.
>if you cannot accept that then you are a big fool.

First of all, no one has presented any empirical evidence whatsoever that
suicide techniques are being taught in any public school in this nation. I
would rather think the mantle of foolishness more appropriately rests on
those who hare off after urban legends at the drop of a hat. You've told
us more about your own fixations in this thread than anything else. Your
over-reaction to the Rev. Kennedy's unsubstantiated claim is evidence not
of any godliness you might hope to claim, but your own lust for power on
earth.

>
>You can sit in lala land all you want but please do not force me to
>accept nor tolerate open disrepect for the ideals that this country was
>founded on, violate the laws of this country and that of God.


I'm getting sick and tired of you posing as some kind of arbiter and
interpreter of God's will on earth. There are millions of Christians in
this country (not to mention folks of other faiths) whom you would spurn
because they don't subscribe exactly to your pedantic notions of
transcendental truth. I proudly count myself among those outcasts. If you
ever get around to actually reading the New Testament and thinking about
what it says, you'll discover, much to your chagrin if you're lucky
enough, that your hateful, exclusionary approach to Christianity is little
more than an updated version of the kind of Phariseeism that drove Christ
himself to distraction. And your ongoing intermingling of Christian
pietism with naked worship of the state happens to be blasphemous.
Sam Stowe

P.S. -- I hope Aniko shows up on your doorstep and give you a Curly
eye-poke along with that little wet-wipe down in South Carolina, who, in
case you haven't noticed, John Wayne, hates the United States. You're
buddying up with exactly the kind of dipstick you profess to despise. But
as long as he can sling the Christian Coalition lingo for you, you react
like one of Pavlov's dogs.


"The true champion of justice, if he intends to survive
even for a short time, must necessarily confine
himself to private life and leave politics alone."
-- Plato, "Apology"
+ - test (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

just test
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

America is amazing, but the more amazing things is how some people
believe everything they see on TV or read in a paper.  I guess there are
always suckers for every propaganda machine.  Even in Hungary there were
those that believed whatever was handed down by the "leaders," and they
did not fail to regurgitate the tails.  The playing field is different
here in America (whether the States or Canada).  Instead of one big
propaganda machine, we face thousands of them from the GOP to the White
House, and everything else in-between.

I dont' want to engage in ad hominem arguments, so don't fly off the
handle when you read the following.  It does appear that Zoltan does not
have any thoughts of his own.

Religion may well be about God and Love, but churches appear to be more
about power and control.  I believe that's the main reason Jesus was
executed.  He was showing the people that they can "reach God" without
relying on the Temple.  So was the Inquisition an effort of the church
to eliminate those that offered an alternative perspective to the common
people.  Before the zealots label me a traitor (because I am one of
those that like to think and not rely solely on what people with titles
tell me), I have to add that to believe in God, one does not have to
belong to or conform to a church.

One more thing.  Blind faith in another human's words may lead you right
off the right track.  One good example for that is the PTL.

Closing word of advice, be always careful believing what people with
titles -- like Rev., President, Senator, etc. -- claim to be true.

Lajos

P.S.  Aniko, I don't know where Zoltan gets these public school horror
stories.  He does not seem to forward (or quote) stories about child
molestations taking place in church schools or after-schools programs.
I live in California, where the average public schools are pretty
mediocre.  I heard a lot of "horror stories" about kids hardly capable
of reading and doing basic math, even gang-related violence, and the
like.  However, I haven't heard of anything like Zoltan claims to go on.
Until he sends the info you mentioned, it is pretty safe to presume
whatever the author of the quoted work claims is most likely a
distortion of the truth or pure fiction.
+ - Re: Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Andy Kozma
> writes:

>>Sam that is enough.My leg is out of place already.Besides I will need a
hip
>replacement,I just have to wait for a year.Social medicine,but I have to
pay
>only $bucks for prescition,and aspirin is helping.

I was in the hospital not too long ago and all I had to pay of a bill that
ran to over $4,000 was $10. Thanks to the changes in the health care
system here over the last couple of years, we're starting to get the same
kind of deal you get.

>Don't knok social medicine.Blame the politicians,who do not want the
doctors
>to make monney,and they do not pay back the years of scooling we have
given
>them.

Andy, when I knock socialized medicine, you may feel free to chide me.
And, boy, are you right about the little suckers getting a medical
education and running for cover. Fortunately, our government is cracking
down on that scheme. If you don't pay your medical school loans back, they
deport you to Canada to work it off there.

>Anyway there is no american insurance company to tell when we have to get
>out from the hospital,only the governement is closing them down.
>I hope I made your day now.

Ours is also. The Republicans controlling our county commission have
decided to privatize the county's only public hospital, essentially
selling it off. The only problem is that it's the one place in a county of
500,000 people for indigent patients to get treatment. How long do you
think the new owner will continue that tradition? Hey, maybe I made your
day!
Sam Stowe
>Andy.



"The true champion of justice, if he intends to survive
even for a short time, must necessarily confine
himself to private life and leave politics alone."
-- Plato, "Apology"
+ - Re: Peter Soltesz (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, 
says...
>
>>Dear Andy:
>>I guess I am bevildered and disgusted that as a Jew of Hungarian
>>extraction you do not appear to be upholding the bibles commandments. I
>>guess if you wish to call them blinders that is your priviledge, but at
>>least I am focused on trying to alert people of their errors -- by your
>>definition one should have open ears, eyes, mouths, etc. to be accepted
>>by you and other (Canadians, liberals, etc.) an according to you one
>>should just ignore the fact that serious crimes are being committed
>>and now we are training our children to solve their problems via murder
>>and suicide, etc. For shame shame.....
>>
>>your bevilderment and digust can turn against youir own thoughts.Who is
>teaching our children the stuff you mention.
>I know I or we brought up our Son without any racist,or any other hate
feelings.
>We taught him that all the people are people,they all get educated and
>select there own fate.Regardless in what religion you belive in.That I
was
>born a Jew,and suffered for it,I am not religous,and my morals are not
based
>on religion,but being a human being.
>Sorry if you can not understand this and in the future,please my
religion
>out of the discussion,just for the reason,sinve I am not discussing
>religions here,except you try to do it.
>If you teach your kids to be human beings they will grow up valuable
>citisens of this world.



>Shalom:Andy.

Hear hear!  - Agnes
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article
>,
 says...
>
>On Wed, 2 Oct 1996, Mark Humphreys wrote:
><snip>
>> It is interesting that you have a very unfavorable opinion of social
liberals,
>> but... was Jesus the Christ not also an extremely liberal
(revolutionary) in
>> His biblical society?  He seems to have stepped on the feet of many
conserva-
>> tive authorities during His time...  It is good to have conservatives
to keep
>> society stable and balanced, but it is equally beneficial to have
liberals to
>> keep progress moving.
>
><<<<< That is quite interesting, thinking of Jesus as a social liberal
--
>I am sure that the words' meaning was different then, but nonetheless I
>do wish that the collective WE could actually learn from Jesus and
others
>about how to honor life itself instead of extinguishing it in as many
>ways as /humanity can find/ -- that is what I object to.
>
>> When you attacked Marina and Aniko this morning I think you mentioned
them  as
>>  not understanding the principles upon which America was founded, but
I
> thought
>> freedom of speech and separation of Church and State were two major
> principles.
><<<<< There is the basic misconception that the liberals are trying to
>force down our collective troats: Yes that wording in the constitution
is
>there for ONE thing only...that is there shall be no official
>religion/church dictated by the government (like it was in England
>(anglicans) and others).  Nevertheless, this country (the USA) was based
>on relgion namely that of the judeo-christian religion if you will and
>its disassembling thereof is what I object to. I do not want the govt to
>pay for religious education, yet I do want ALL children regardless of
>their religious convictions to see the other religions in action. That
>means have Crosses at Christmas, Star of David at Rosh Hashana, etc.
>We can all learn something from each other.
>
>The fundamental issue is this:
>If you ask me to pay for it and you want to pend it (control it) then I
>have a right to tell you yes or no. if it is your own hard earned money
>then you can spend it on whatever you wish, even if you are an atheist!
>Just do not ask me to support you out of govt funds (especially if I do
>not agree!). Thanx!
>
>> I really fail to see how someone's respect for other groups and
opinions can
>> be understood as forcing you to change your life.  (Just in tune with
our
>> previous discussion: How do you feel two gay people marrying will
affect your
>> marriage and relationship with your wife?  Anyway that's another
time....
>> another topic.)
><<<<<< I think I answered this direct already tyou mark.
>
>>
>> I thought Christianity would at least sometimes teach respect and
tolerance
>> (not always superiority, judgements and intolerance), but after some
of these
>> statements on the List, I really don't know. Historically, though,
after
> seeing
>>  what intolerant, insecure Christians did to other cultures, it leaves
a bad
>> aftertaste.
>
><<<<< I want you to understand that I do not condone many of the things
>that many of the churches do, be it catholic, protestant, synagouges,
>islam, etc.
>
>I also feel and know that we have been led astray by the supposed
religious
>orders who could not care less and just give ip service.
>>
>> You often bring up abortion to show your conviction of respecting
life. That
> is
>> good, and I really respect you in this way. However, how can
conservatives
> talk
>> about respecting the right to life... and then feel strong convictions
to deny
>> others a right to lead their own life!  It would be funny if a number
of
> babies
>> saved from abortion turned out to be gay... then the conservatives can
spend
>> the rest of their lives praying on the pavement that they become
straight.
>
><< Funny?!!! Well let them pray for all so that they may find the
truth.>
>> Some people feel abortion is bad... but was the situation of outlawed
abortion
>> in Romania a better situation for society? Brazil doesn't thrill me
either.
><<<<< Good point, I feel that it is wrong to force people to have their
>unwanted kids, yet I would rather NOT KILL them, but have them adopted.
>How many mothers who had abortions cry in the dark when no-one sees or
>hears them, because they know inside that they have lost something
>precious.
>Let's ask those who have had them.  Any takers???
>One more point -- which I have stated earlier -- if a woman really wants
>to have an abortion, I would advise her not to (explain the options),
yet
>I could not stop her. I do not want my tax money to support her to kill
>her babay!  Maybe we as a society have failed to teach about prevention.
>I think the Catholic chucrh is wrong  on this pt.
>Peter

O far I am concerned, a fertilized egg is not a chicken.

Agnes
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, 
says...
>
>On Wed, 2 Oct 1996 00:40:38 -0400, Aniko Dunford
> wrote:
>
>>Zolika, "Dra'ga" the "ultimate self acclaimed" brain in the universe
.....
>>At 06:25 PM 01/10/96 -0400, you wrote in answer to >Sam Stowe who wrote
to
>>to Zsargo Janos as way below:
>
>[....]
>>
>>Sorry all ... I guess that I have reached the end of my ultimate
tolarence
>>in allotting this "Guest of the West" any more slack ... for lack of
lingo,
>>for lack of culture knowledge ... intelligence (ha?.. did I really say
>>that)?  Whoops ... here I go, again, extending undully earned credit???
-
>>But .... once, I  *really did* ask God to eventually extend to him the
>>required brain power with which to put his teachings to work on a day
to day
>>basis! - Either the "eventual has not come as of yet, or he did not
hear me?
>>
>>Regards to all (to Zolika Draga - no regards)
>>Aniko
>
>Dear Aniko,
>
>Notwithstanding my personal dislike for anyone who 'bites the hand
>that feeds him/her' I tend to agree with Jeliko, inasmuch as the
>Internet is neither a democracy, nor a republic, but rather a
>self-regulated anarchy. As such. it has room for all sorts of
>creatures of habit, ideas, shapes & sizes, dimensions, and 'soap
>boxes.'
>
>Not unlike the United States, the Internet seems to be doing well,
>even if, among some brilliant ideas and resources, it also contains
>considerable garbage. It is this woof and warp of Internet's fabric
>that makes it both exciting, unpredictable, and forever evolving. And
>the Yin and Yang coexist to balance each other.
>
>I will not insult the readership of this list by expousing untenable
>hypotheses with regards to this yong gentleman's motivation(s) for
>spewing forth such utter bilge. Suffices to say, he is not a fire that
>warms my heart, nor anyone else's, for that matter.
>
>To continue with the metaphor of the fire, given that we do not know
>the cause, the origin, or its kind, the best course of action (in all
>such cases) is to withhold fuel: no fire can exist without oxygen.
>
>As I mentioned (obliquely) in an earlier post:
>
>     "Cave quid dicis, quando, et cui."
>
>Clearly, either the aphorism escapes him or he chooses to ignore it.
>
>So be it. Tit for tat.
>
>Bandi

Or, he doesn't understand linguam latinam.

Where was I yesterday? Babysitting my granddaughter and had no chance to
read the daily mail.  Also, you all responded to "Zolika draga", telling
him, what a "brain" he is.  I agree with you all.
Agnes
>=============================================================
>      Andrew J. Rszsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
>                 <mailto:>
>-------------------------------------------------------------
>          Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
>=============================================================
>
>
>
+ - Canada and the Hungarian Revolution Forty Year Ago; par (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

DAY NINE

Wednesday, 31 October 1956.
Soviet tank forces regrouped outside Budapest. In response to demand from
Army Revolutionary Council, Nagy asked Russians to negotiate immediate
withdrawal of all Soviet troops from Hungary and termination of Hungary's
participation in Warsaw Pact. Nagy dropped Stalinists from Cabinet and
brought in Social Democrats.
Calendar of Events in Hungary prepared by the staff of the Department of
External Affairs for use in connection with the Special Session of the
Canadian House of Commons: November 26, 1956.(1)

        The cabinet met in Ottawa to discuss the planned Hungarian army of
Canada. Pearson opened the session by stating that there had been a number
of requests from persons of Hungarian extraction for information on the
possibility of going to Hungary to fight against the Russians. Under the
=46oreign Enlistment Act, passed in 1937, it was an offence for a Canadian t=
o
enlist in the forces of a foreign state at war with a friendly nation. It
was not, however, clear whether there was a war at present between Hungary
and the Soviet Union. According to the Act, it was not an offence to take
part in a civil conflict in another country unless an order-in-council
specifically prohibited participation. The Minister said no such order had
been passed in regard to the Hungarian conflict nor was one contemplated.
Legally, Canadians could go to Hungary to join the Hungarian liberation
forces. Of course, persons from Hungary who did not yet have Canadian
citizenship might have difficulty returning to Canada, and people of
Hungarian origin with Canadian citizenship might also find it difficult to
travel to Hungary. The number of requests for passports would probably
slacken as the Russians withdrew from Hungary. Cabinet cosequently proposed
to explain that the legal situation be clarified with the mention that they
did  not intend to pass the type of order referred to above.(2)

        Concurrently, a Toronto spokesman for the volunteers stated that
his group was harmonizing action with American-Hungarians and was currently
waiting for the signal from New York. Leger asked the State Department if
they were discouraging, encouraging or ignoring the budding Hungarian
Legion. The State Department replied that they had no objection to the
formation of a Legion of Freedom but noted that US citizens had been
prohibited from travel to Hungary since February 3, 1956.(3)

        NATO also continued, with full Canadian acquiescence,  to show
little interest in the Hungarian revolution. Canadian Ambassador to NATO,
L.D. Wilgress, reported from Paris: "Undoubtedly developments in Hungary
and the satellites would have occupied much more of the Council's time had
not developments in Palestine become so pressing. As a result discussion at
the private session of Council on October 31 concerning Hungary was rather
brief and confined to the exchange of info.  Both Portugal and ourselves
stated that our govt had written to the Secretary General of the support of
the approach taken by Britain, France and the USA in the Security Council
on this subject." (4) This was not necessarily a negative development as
far as East European affairs were concerned. There was an air of optimism
everywhere following the issuance of the Moscow Declaration of October
30th, which recognized separate ways to socialism. Optimism also prevailed
in Ottawa.

        Jules Leger, Under-Secretary of State at External Affairs,
informed most Canadian diplomatic posts that Canada's aim to end bloodshed
in Hungary had been accomplished. External Affairs wanted to postpone all
discussions on Hungary in the Security Council until the situation became
clearer or, at least, until an authorized Hungarian trade delegation
representing Imre Nagy would reach New York.  "I hope when discussion is
resumed that the Western Powers can avoid the temptation to score a
propaganda victory," concluded L=E9ger.(5) The second aim of Canada, of
finding a satisfactory solution to the Hungarian question, remained
unresolved. For the moment cabinet considered the question of economic aid.

        The Globe and Mail  and The Montreal Star  made inquires at
External Affairs asking whether the minister contemplated aid to Poland and
Hungary and, if so, would the aid be given directly by Canada or via NATO.6
Wider Canadian public support emerged for the Hungarian revolution.  The
1,050,000 member Canadian Labor Congress (CLC) joined a plan to help East
European workers to establish free trade unions. President Claude Jodoin
said all CLC affiliates would be asked to contribute to 'an international
solidarity fund to assist European workers who are victims of Soviet
domination.'(7) In Montreal, the Hungarian community obtained the support
of Senator A.K.Hugessen,  Cardinal L=E9ger and  Major General Ernest G. Week=
s
to support the International Rescue Committee. The recently established
Hungarian Relief Fund had collected $10,000 and contributions were pouring
into the Montreal office of the Rev. Michael Feher, an officer of the
=46und.(8)   CCF leader M.J. Coldwell condemned Russia and suggested that
economic aid should be given to Hungary. The Hungarian trade delegation was
lingering in Montreal, hoping for the resumption of trade discussions.(9)
In Ottawa the credentials of the four-member Hungarian trade delegation
were reconsidered and declared valid, which could have been interpreted in
the circumstances as a de facto  recognition of the Nagy government of
Hungary.(10)  At his press conference Pearson encouraged the Hungarians.
"The Canada-Hungary trade pact had been agreed to and simply awaited
signing." In Hungary the situation is 'working itself out' and individual
nations, he suggested, could better contribute by aiding the people
directly, let us say through the Red Cross, than directly to the Budapest
regime. In case of NATO involvement the Russians could claim the West was
interfering. This should be avoided.(11)  Pearson's hands-off-policy did
not mean lack of diplomatic activity on behalf of the Nagy government. The
minister cabled Ambassador Escott Reid in New Delhi suggesting that he
persuade Nehru not to postpone a public denunciation of Soviet actions in
Hungary.(12)  Third world countries could not, however, be relied upon to
help Hungary once Egypt had been invaded.


NOTES

(1)NAC, RG 2, 90-91/154, Box 47, File H-17-1 (b).

(2) Cabinet Conclusions, October 31st, 1956, NAC, RG 2,  Vol. 5775, Canada
Cabinet conclusions, Top Secret, Vol.51, 3 August 1956-3 November 1956.

(3) Heeney from Washington to External Affairs re Volunteers to fight in
Hungary, 3 November 1956, NAC, RG 25, 86-87/360, Box 32, File 8619-40 pt.3;
from November 1, 1956 to November 7, 1956; From External Affairs to
Washington, 1 November 1956, NAC, RG 25, 86-87/360, Box 32, File 8619-40
pt.3; from November 1, 1956 to November 7, 1956.

(4)From NATO to External Affairs, 31 October 1956 NAC, RG 25, 84-85/150,
Box 111, File 8619-40, part 2: from January 2, 1952 to October 31, 1956.

(5)Jules Leger to London, Washington, Paris, 31 October 1956, NAC, RG 25,
84-85/150, Box 111, File 8619-40 part 2; from January 2, 1952 to October
31, 1956.

(6) NAC, RG 25, 84-85/150, Box 111, File 8619-40 part 2; from January 2,
1952 to October 31, 1956.

(7)The Montreal Star, 1 November 1956.

(8)  Ibid.

(9)The Globe and Mail, 31 October 1956.

(10)The Gazette  [Montreal], 31 October 1956.

(11)The Montreal Star, 31 October 1956.

Peter I. Hidas
Montreal
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
 says...
>
>See bottom for reply:
>
>
>> On Wed, 2 Oct 1996, Mark Humphreys wrote:
>> <<SNIP>>
>> > ....I  would like to know if you feel more secure in your
>> > beliefs if you can sort of criminalize others who are different from
you.
>>
>> <<<<< I did not criminalize it. It is already a criminal act (murder,
>> suicide, etc.) that I was refering to. It is crimional under the bible
>> and ALMOST ALL of the civilized world!!! How does that make ME
>> criminalize it?? Pray tell me Mark?
>> Peter
>
>Mr. Soltesz,
>
>Semmitse'g! The answer is easy:
>
>For specifics, all you really have to do is reread your postings on this
topic.
>Your kindness and willingness to listen to Marina and Aniko and not put
them
> down is evident.
>
>Criminalize does not ony mean to put in jail, it also means to brand
someone
>negatively.
>Someone criticizes religious arrogance and suddenly they are no longer
god-
>fearing people and are an affront to god and country (sound like
MacCarthyism
>..).  [Anyway, in many instances, you are correct: Aniko and Marina do
not
>seem to be god-FEARING people.   ... but perhaps rather god-LOVING
people.
>Did they advocate murder? Did they tell others to commit suicide? Why
are they
>suddenly a dangerous influence to your children?? The Bible has enough
contra-
>dictions in it... it can't even decide which of the two differing
versions of
>its creation myth to accept... why should it be such a social meter? Not
even
>the Hassids can do it.
>
>You keep mentioning biblical society, but as I stated earlier, should we
>have slavery and incest as it appears in the Bible? When I speak of
slavery,
>I am not speaking of the Jews' slavery in Egypt, but of the institution
where
>slaves are told to be good and masters kind. Does the Old Testament talk
of
>equality of humans? What do you plan to *pick and choose* to make this
model
>biblical society??
>
>Also, while I would try to deter someone from committing a suicide, I
sure
>would not call them a sinner if they did it.  I have enough trouble
looking
>after my own life, I don't know why I'd want to JUDGE someone else's!
>
>Btw: Earlier you mentioned the orthodox Jews didn't get sick when others
did
>bec. they followed biblical dietary law.  Well, maybe its because they
happened
>to have more garlic in their diet. Maybe Italians and Portuguese would
have
>faired just as well.
>
>As was discussed a few weeks ago: How do you define a civilized world? I
don't
>even think our Indo-European world has always lived up to that
adjective.
>
>I loved the statement by Jeliko earlier today that we are prisoners of
our
>past experiences.
>
>I also love this freedom to exchange such varying views.
>Thank you,
>Mark H

The bible was written about 3,500 years ago, in a completely different
society and in a different climate.  Many people tried to explain its
rules - these explanations are called the Talmud.  Many rules were
revolutionary and modern in those times - eg. making one day of the week
a rest day for everybody.  However, it doesn't make too much sense today,
in this sedentary society for an orthodox Jew, who sits in his office the
entire week, to sit at home and not do anything on the Shabbat because he
is not supposed to travel, etc.  What I am trying to say is that we can't
live our everyday lifes according to obsolete and ancient rules -
although some do and therefore believe that they are decent people,
although in many aspects they are definitely not.

Agnes
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Oh, my!  We are having fundamentalist missionaries here now!  So far I am
concerned, God save us from the religious, no matter of which one!  Look
what they are doing to Israel!  It will not be the Arabs, but the
religious Jews who will ruin it!  Look at the moslem fundamentalists! And
look back to the days of the inquisition!  Freedom of religion means also
freedom from religion.  I know scores of very decent, good agnostics vs.
many rotten ones who claim they are religious!

Agnes


In article
>,
 says...
>
>First let me state that I find it quite interesting that both Aniko
>Dunford and Marina Pflieger (both Canadians) have fallen from being
>god fearing people. Perhaps it was their communist upbringing in Hungary
>that closed their eyes to the truth.  The fact is that I as an a
American
>have learned many things here that the Hungarians in Hungary and
elsewhere
>apparently have not yet (mostly). Moroever, it is very disturbing to see
>my countrymen(women) to have fallen thusly wherein they have no longer
>any fera (nor respect for God, life and humanity). They have been
overtaken
>with the current liberalism which allows everything, that resepcts
nothing
>and stays away from what is right and moral. If Zoli and I were in the
>same place you might even attempt to stone us beccause we dare to tell
YOU
>that what you are doing is not what is right according to the
Judeo-Christian
>ethic upon which the Israel, UK, USA, Canada, Australia and other Anglo
world
>was based on for many many centuries.
>
>It is bad enough that YOU have fallen from the right path, but PLEASE
>PLEASE do not force me or my children to be witnesses to lawlessness
>against God or humnaity. Please do not tell my kids (or any kids for
that
>matter) that they should know about killing others nor themselves -- it
>is WRONG!
>
>Some of this may apply to George as well........
>
>On Wed, 2 Oct 1996, George Antony wrote:
>
>> Aniko Dunford asked:
>>
>> > Peter/Zoltan -
>> > Question - are you two related?  Genetically or otherwise?
>>
>> By sentiments, certainly.  I must admit to astonishment over the
emergence
>> of a particular type of Hungarian that I have not encountered in
Hungary
>> before.
>>
>> People who are fanatically religious, in an intolerant and dogmatic
way,
>> people who are clamouring for a very restrictive social agenda
vis-a-vis
>> such issues as homosexuality and suicides.
>>
>
><<<<<<<<<< We are NOT fanatical nor intolerant -- what we are intolerant
>about is that YOU insist that you want to change the basis upon which
these
>wonderful blessed countries were created. It is that YOU are trying to
>force us to accept YOUR evil ways because you think that we are too
rigid
>or dogmatic. We are neither.... but we do draw the line between being
>tolerant and being sinful.
>
>> The same people have no apparent understanding of how a modern
parliamentary
>> democracy works and even less of how a modern economy operates.  In
both
>> they want a very centralized and authoritarian direction that is most
>> reminiscent of the heydays of the very Communist regimes that these
people
>> claim as the incarnation of the Devil.
>
><<<<<<<<<<< George you are full of it! It is you that do not understand
>how the system works, especially the American system, I have been to
>Australia, even Queensland (where it is hot and perhaps overheating your
>brain). I saw the STUPIDITY of arguing the opposite of EVERY issue just
>because the representative was on the opposite party. It was insane ---
>the party in power said that it was sunny outside, then the party out-ot
>power (opposition) stated that no it is dark outside. Neither was trying
>to find the truth, wasting time, energy, money and being stupid! So much
>for your parliamentary system -- it does not work, becuase of people
like
>YOU who cannot accept the truth, who are not working for the overall
>benefit of others, but just wish to argue your empty oppositions to
>reality no matter what the cost!
>
>But there is a cost! YOU will find out one day the wrath of
GOD...because
>YOU were placed in a sitaution to be able to help other people and you
>have fallen down on your job!
>
>I challenge you George any time about basic economics...I guess the
>problem is that you subscribe to liberal economic theories and I
>subscribe to consewrvative economic theories. The liberal economic
>theories have their proof of failure here in the states and
>elsewhere...more and more debt at the expense of the people! That's
>socialism/communism for you!
>
>> Representatives of such people have been appearing especially from
among
>> the ranks of emigre Hungarians living in the US and, what really
astonishes
>> me, from among Hungarians brought up in Hungary.
>
><<<<< You should not be astonished at us but rather you...perhaps it is
>being upside down in the hot sun that is cause of your problems.  Just
>because one is from Hungary (brought up under the communists dogma --
>liberal BS does not mean that one canot find the truth and the right way
>things actually work.
>
>One day I will disclose something that many already know about the UK,
>America, and the British people that will shock you! Then you will have
>to make a choice, but no longer will you be ignorant about who and what
>WE are!
>
>Peter Soltesz
+ - Re: Cultural superiority (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article <v01540b00ae77d1df9062@[198.168.48.47]>,
 says...
>
>At 9:45 PM 10/1/96, Stowewrite wrote:
> When, then, does deportation de facto become deportation de
>>jure, at least in the court of opinion presided over by professional
>>historians?
>>Sam Stowe
>
>Let me answer you with a section of a speech of mine delivered in
Montreal
>in 1994.
>
>According to the census of 1941 the population of Hungary numbered 9.3
>million. There were 825,000 Jews in the country. Following the Nazi
>occupation of Poland about 100,000 Poles sought and received refuge in
>Hungary. A significant number of them were Jewish. In 1941 the
government
>decided to reevaluate its refugee policies. About 18,000 Jews who could
not
>prove their Hungarian citizenship were deported to Galicia where 16,000
of
>them were butchered by the SS Eisatzgruppen and their Ukrainian and
>Hungarian collaborators. A year later the infamous Ujvid=E9k raid  took
>place. In search of Yugoslav partisans the Hungarian army murdered 4,000
>civilians amongst them 1,000 Jews in a southern Hungarian town. Before
the
>German occupation, that is before 19 March 1944, fifty to sixty thousand
>Jewish men were enrolled in labour battalions.  By the said date 15,000
of
>them were dead and another 10,000 died before the end of the war.  Of
the
>25,000 who were captured by the Russian hardly any survived the war.
>
>The road to Auschwitz was opened in March 1944. The German army occupied
>Hungary and Horthy was forced to appoint a pro-German government. There
was
>no resistance. Soon Adolf Eichmann appeared with his small team to
organize
>the deportation of all Hungarian Jews to death camps.  The Hungarian
>genocide began in the spring of 1944. According to Veesenmayer, Hitler's
>plenipotentiary in Budapest, whose data is confirmed by other sources,
>437,402 persons were deported from Hungary with the full cooperation of
the
>new government, the civil service, the gendarmerie and the Jewish
Council.
>Horthy and the people looked on passively. A few cheered, even fewer
>protested. Copies of the Auschwitz Protocol, information about the
planned
>extermination of the Jews of Hungary was passed on to the Allies, to the
>Hungarian government, the Jewish Council, Horthy and the head of the
>Catholic Church. Nobody warned the victims. Nobody protested publicly.
The
>British government forbade Palestinian Jewish commandoes to parachute
into
>Hungary and arouse the Jews. The Americans refused to bomb the railway
>lines leading to Auschwitz. The Canadian government declined to take in
>Hungarian Jewish children. The Allies disallowed  trading trucks for
lives
>earnestly offered by the SS.
>
>The Pope addressed a personal plea to Horthy on June 25, 1944, which was
>followed by the warnings of President Roosevelt on June 26, and that of
>King Gustav of Sweden on June 30. Horthy prohibited further
deportations.
>By now all the Jews from the countryside were gone. The gas chambers of
>Auschwitz were working day and night. The overload was thrown onto the
>constantly burning open pits. In Hungary the respite was only temporary.
>Eichmann, with the help of the Hungarian Nazis, the Arrow Cross Party,
who
>were put into power in October 1944, continued his work. From the Jews
of
>Budapest another 50,000 were handed over to the Germans. The number
would
>have been 15,000 higher without the heroic activities of Raul
Wallenberg.
>During the next six months another 15,000 Jews died within Hungary
mainly
>as a result of the Arrow Cross attrocities. The most Jews of Budapest,
>however, survived, albeit decimated. But what happened to the 490,000
>deportees? 50,000 who survived the Holocaust in Germany decided never to
>return to Hungary. 310,000 fell victim to genocide.
>
>Peter I. Hidas
>Montreal

Yes, Peter, these were the facts.  I would like to recommend one more
book to those who read Hungarian, but the trouble is that I don't
remember the title.  It was written by Elias Jozsef, a protestant
minister.  It was about the churches' official attitude during this
period and, that all actions by priests, nuns and ministers to try to
save Jews were not because, but in spite of the official church policy.

Agnes
+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary and an unrelated questio (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Sam Stowe:

> Heidegger faithfully carried out the
> policy of Gleichsaltung at Heidelburg during his tenure as Chancellor. He
> quit after a year or so because he realized that the Nazis weren't likely
> to follow his lead. He complained at the time and throughout the remainder
> of his life that if only they had listened to him, national socialism
> might have been a real winner for Germany.

Any quote for your last claim? Or is it just another nice
piece of Sam Stowe's academic career building slanders
(down on the pathway of ole goody Victor Farias  :-(  ) ?

                                                Sz. Zoli
+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary and an unrelated questio (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Sam Stowe:
>
> In article >, Zoltan Szekely
> > writes:
>
> >Really? What do you mean under the expression "national socialism"
> >back, e.g. in 1930, a little bit later in 1934, or more later
> >during and after the war? I guess, the word has a long story of
> >different meanings. After 1956, for example, in Hungary Kadar
> >announced the plan of building socialism IN ACCORDANCE TO THE
> >NATIONAL SPECIFICS of Hungary, i.e. in a Hungarian way. It was
> >"our national way of building socialism". It is just a small piece
> >of food for your thinking...
>
> Congratulations, Zoltan. You may be the only college-educated adult in
> Christendom at the end of the 20th Century who doesn't know what national
> socialism is. You're a regular renaissance man.

O.K. Sam, elo a farbaval! What is your college level
understanding of national socialism? Is it national?
Is it socialism? How does it relate to Mussolini,
Rohm, Hitler, Horthy, Szalasi, Antonescu, Ceaucescu,
Kadar, Pol Pot, Jaruzelski? Does it include the
extermination of political or ethnic minorities? I
know it is just a bunch of pure theoretical questions
but sometime we have to be theoretical.

                                            Sz. Zoli
+ - *** BULI *** Hungarian Picnic - Washington, DC Oct/05 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

**********************************************************************
 GOOD WEATHER IS FORECASTED FOR SATURDAY - SZOMBATON: MELEG, NAPOS IDO
**********************************************************************

This SATURDAY!!! It's party time!!!!

!!! Young Hungarians' and Friends' Picnic in Washington, DC !!!

Hungarian students and young professionals in the Washington, DC
Metropolitan Area cordially invite you and your friends to our annual
picnic.  Join us for an afternoon of fun, food, music and sports. (if you
would like to play soccer or volleyball, please, dress appropriately)

*** According to the weather forecast, it is going to be sunny, with
*** highs in the mid-to-upper 60s

Date & Time: October 5, 1996, Saturday, 1:00 p.m.
Place: Rock Creek Park, Washington, DC, outside of the Hungarian Embassy,
in case of rain the picnic will take place in the building of the
Hungarian Embassy (metro accessible)

Directions to Rock Creek Park Picnic Area - Grove # 1:

Take the Red Line of the metro to the Van Ness - UDC station, exit the
station, the escalators lead up to Connecticut Avenue.  Head South towards
downtown on Connecticut.  Pass Van Ness Street and traffic light.  At the
next traffic light turn left on to Tilden Street.  Head all the way down
on Tilden, but before you come across a little bridge and traffic light,
turn right.  ( To your left you will see The Rock Creek Gallery and the
Pierce Mill.  To your right you will find the Hungarian Embassy, the field
is across from it.)

The picnic is free. However, if you would like to bring your favorite
dish, please do so. (Hamburgers, hot dogs, veggie dogs, salads and drinks
will be provided )

If you would like to come send mail to: 
or check out our web page for up-to-date information and maps at:
http://www.glue.umd.edu/~hungaria/picnic/

This picnic is sponsored by
the Hungarian Embassy in Washington, D.C.,
the American Hungarian Educators' Association and
the UMCP Hungarian American Association.

**********************************************************************

!!! Szombat delutan !!! Buli van !!!

Washingtoni magyar fiatalok szeretettel meghivnak Teged es Barataid eves
piknikjukre. Lesz etel, ital, zene es sport ( ha szeretnel focizni
vagy roplabdazni, hozzal megfelelo ruhazatot).

*** Az elorejelzes szerint szombaton napos, szaraz, meleg ido lesz.
*** A csucshomerseklet 20 C fok korul varhato.

Mikor: 1996. oktober 5., szombat, 1:00
Hol: Rock Creek Park, Washington, DC, a Magyar Nagykovetseg epulete
mellett, eso eseten a Magyar Nagykovetseg epuleteben (metro a kozelben)

A metro piros vonalan menj el a Van Ness - UDC megalloig.  Itt ha felmesz
indulj el a Connecticut Avenue-n a belvaros fele (delre). Menj el  Van
Ness utcai keresztezodes es egy kozlekedesi lampa mellett, a kovetkezo
kozlekedesi lampanal fordulj balra a Tilden Street-re. Ezen menj vegig, de
mielott elernel egy kis hidat es egy kozlekedesi lampat fordulj jobbra.
(A bal oldalon a Rock Creek Gallery es a Pierce Mill van, a jobb oldalon
pedig a Magyar Nagykovetseg, a piknik a Nagykovetseggel szemben lesz.)

A piknik ingyenes, de hozhatsz kedvenc eteledbol/kajadbol/harapnivalodbol.
(Lesz hamburger, hot dog, vegetarianus etelek, salatak es (udito)italok.)

Ha szeretnel jonni, legyszives kuldj egy emailt a kovetkezo cimre:
email:  

Friss informaciok es terkepek a piknik web oldalan talalhatoak:
www:  http://www.glue.umd.edu/~hungaria/picnic/

Ez a piknik nem jonne letre a
washingtoni Magyar Nagykovetseg,
az Amerikai Magyar Tanarok Egyesulete es
a Maryland-i Egyetem Magyar Amerikai Diakszovetsegenek
segitsege nelkul.
**********************************************************************

.
+ - Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Peter,

I agree with you in your posting to Andy that the U.S. was founded by religious
men, but they did endorse a *separation* of Church and State.  Actually, we
probably need a historian or government studies major for this, but historicall
y
the founding fathers where very aware of religious wars in Europe and paranoia
against the Papists in America. This separation of Church and State was very
innovative.

If religions get an official hold in the public arena, then churchs
better be ready to be good citizens for once and pay their taxes!!!

There is too fine of a line between a state endorsing a religion and enforcing
one. I am surprised you do not find responsibility for religious education as
a family matter as being the best solution. (I don't mean this to be facetious)
Don't you think you would probably be more upset if the teacher taught a brand
of religion that you consider a heresy? My sister is older then I and remembers
prayer in school. She said if you didn't pray, the kids would make fun of you.
(That happened to two Jewish kids in her class.) Now that religion is out of
the school and freely kept in the home and church, that element is gone.

Let people take responsibility for their own religious needs.  Doesn't that
fit your philosophy that welfare is bloated and people should take responsi-
bility for their wordly needs ????

If religion in school were endorsed, it is easy to imagine you complaining
 aboutthe type of religion that is being taught... how the teacher interprets
 the
bible or koran...  I also don't see how an automatic prayer to a god on the
school schedule each morning will realistically be appreciated.  It will most
likely become as meaningful as the national anthemn before a baseball game.
All it would probably do is appease some parents into making them think the
school will also take responsibility for the religion of their child...

With so many schools in America, you can find some weird person somewhere
teaching odd things to others, but why jump the gun and say the whole system
is collapsing and all the schools are conspiring to do the same thing???

Thanks again,
Mark H
+ - Thank You (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Good news:

As a lighter side to some of the recent sensitive debates, I would like
to tell everyone that while I am on the opposite side of the spectrum from
P. Soltesz on some issues, I would like to thank him for helping me
work out some computer problems.

Last week my alias was changed and I had a hard time getting back on the
list. I only had Peter's adress, so after contacting him, he was helpful
and really nice.

So, although I may debate with him about narrow views...., I appreciate
his openness to help me continue to participate with my views. It's relaxing
to view a person as being separate from an issue.

....but.... I still think I'm right.  Ha!

Thank you,
Mark H
+ - Re: Denmark (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Haliho!

At 09:30 02/10/96 -0400, you wrote:
>A very interesting brief article appeared in The Jerusalem Post
>International Edition, week ending October 16, 1993. Author: Bent
>Bludnikow (archivist at the National Archives of Denmark), title:
>Three (muted) cheers for Denmark.
>
>Below are a few excerpts:
>In October 1943, Danish Jews were taken to safety in Sweden and thus
>escaped the Nazis. This rescue action, an expression of altruism in
>the midst of war, is indeed worth celebrating.
>
>Today, everyone can look back with pride at the rescue of the Danish
>Jews. Many Americans can tell you the story of the King of Denmark,
>who wore the yellow star of David on his jacket out of solidarity with
>theJews of this country - a story which is actually not true.

><much snippetry>

>Collegially,
>
>Bob Michael
>
>Peter I. Hidas
>Montreal

Look you guys, just because one newspaper article appears saying something
doesn't mean that it is true. For the time being, I will continue to believe
in the truth of the story, and will seek to gather a little more evidence in
support of the story. But, given my location, this may take some time, so
don't hold your breath . . .

(I still think I remember the photograph on the cover of the book).

U:dvo:zlettel,

Johanne/Janka
Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 04:30 PM 02/10/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Thank you Lord Aniko the 1st and last!

You're welcome.

Just "Aniko"
I have more than enough responsibilities on my plate thank you, without
taking on a "Lordship" of any nature.  1st?.... I doubt it.  Last?... highly
unlikely - it is a rather popular name.
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 04:31 PM 02/10/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Command response for Aniko re the text below:

First and foremost - my sincere apologies to the addressed individuals.  It
was truly not my intent to "demand" a/any response.
>
Secondly, thank you Jeliko for your wise, well thought out posting.  While I
appreciate and agree with most of what you say, I cannot see eye to eye with
your statement as below:

>So, I do believe, that Zoli Szekely has the right to say the things he
>says, regardless of being a guest, or who finances his education, or what
>his political affiliation is.

Visiting a foreign country is generally by choice these days.  Making a
choice to move there for whatever reason also.  After settling, when one
recognizes the lack of personal benefits by being in that country, or worst
realizes that being there, violates their morals, code of ethics et al, one
has available choices.  With the choice to remain, come responsibilites.
Main of which in my opinion is the responsibility to accept and to realize
their position for what it is, & as such conduct themselves accordingly.  In
my opinion, being "just a guest by choice" does not under any circumstance
mean "equal access to the rights of  that country's contributing citizens".
(even in legal terms, I believe that they would fall under the jurisdiction
of their country of birth).  Failing the ability of such guests to accept
responsibility for their choice, they should have the common sense to simply
pack up and quietly return to their own home - where your philosophy would
be most acceptable to me.  In their own country, where they are no longer
guests, but hopefully contributing citizens to society at large - I have no
problems with self expression and/or  freedom of speech.

With regards to funding  - generally speaking, (since I have not received a
specific answer to my question) such students are either self financed,
sponsored by a corporation, a non-profit organization, the hosting country's
government(in other words, the taxpayers), or a private individual.  In
isolated cases, any combination of the last four could apply.

In any of these cases, save the first, I strongly feel, that the benefactors
ought to at the least conduct themselves in a manner, which would be
acceptable to their sponsor(s) - since upon acceptance of such benefits,
they become "chosen" representatives - diplomats if you will of the sponsor(s).
>
>As long as I have the right to publicly disagree, I have zero problem with
>other's right of saying what they think in public.

Well stated....but as always, there exceptions to every rule. The above
would be my exception.  And most likely it results from "being a victim of
my own past experience". (A statement of yours, which I found quite
prophetic(sp) ... thanks)

Thanks again for your post ...
Best regards,
Aniko
+ - trading in clothes, WHO? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I can arrange large quantities of second hand clothing for very good prices
wich i would like to export to hungary.
Send me your E-mail adress and telephone number, so we can do bussines.




+ - Suicide in Hungary - (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Wed, 2 Oct 1996, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:

> Marks comments are interestin, yet do not completely tell the story(ies)
> that have to do with suicide.
>
> Yes you are correct that Hungarians have the highest Suicide rate in the
> world!!! Ouch!!
>
> Is it the Hungarian mentality, the despondence of the communist system,
> the hopelessness, the drunkennes, et al???

  Hungary had one of the highest, if not the highest, suicide rate
  way before the communists. Stop avoiding reality!

>                     ALL people need help at times, some much more than
> others. We all get to those periods where everyhting seems to go wrong.
>

  Unfortunately, you need it more than most.
                                              Amos
+ - Re: Peter Soltesz (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I know I should not react to anything Peter writes...but I can't stand
him saying these things to Andy.

Peter, your mouth is moving like a runaway train....please spear us the
agony!
Who do you think you are - - who made you king, god, the messiah
that you are "alerting" us to mend our ways.

Would like to remind you of the old Hungarian saying:
   "Soporj a salyat hazad elott..." / Sweep in front of your own door...

Marina
> =====================================================
In article
>, "Peter
A. Soltesz" > writes:

>Dear Andy:
>I guess I am bevildered and disgusted that as a Jew of Hungarian
>extraction you do not appear to be upholding the bibles commandments. I
>guess if you wish to call them blinders that is your priviledge, but at
>least I am focused on trying to alert people of their errors -- by your
>definition one should have open ears, eyes, mouths, etc. to be accepted
>by you and other (Canadians, liberals, etc.) an according to you one
>should just ignore the fact that serious crimes are being committed
>and now we are training our children to solve their problems via murder
>and suicide, etc. For shame shame.....
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Zoltan Szekely wrote:
>
> I really did not intend to stir your emotions by
> quoting Father Kennedy (a good name for an American,
> anyway...). He is my favourite Sunday morning tv
> preacher, so he must not be so bad if the national
> television carries his program every week-end.
>
> He showed a segment of a 'public school education'
> event, taped on video. 10-12 years old girls were
> 'educated' about oral sex by a liberal looking young
> woman wearing leather jacket. As we had to learn it,
> the parent of these girls were not informed about
> what kind of 'public education' was offered to their
> dear daughters.
>
> I definitely MEAN that America is amazing, because
> you are free to express your discontent. That's all
> for now. Cheer up, please, the life is short. Here
> is my next quote.
>                                          (Sz. Zoli)
>
> > Modern public education is the most dangerous single force in a child's
> > life: religiously, sexually, economically, patriotically and physically.
> > --Rev. Tim LaHaye, (Dave Marsh, 50 Ways to Fight Censorship)

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
"""""""""""""""""""""""""'
Yes! America is amazing just as you state. One has the freedom to be impressed
 because something seen on TV. One has the choice to believe whatever the
program portrays.

Seeing your penchant for qoutations, here is one for your collection:

" Quotation confesses inferiority"  / Ralph waldo Emerson


                         Will remain ----
                                                          Mark O.F.
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Peter A. Soltesz wrote:
>
> First let me state that I find it quite interesting that both Aniko
> Dunford and Marina Pflieger (both Canadians) have fallen from being
> god fearing people. Perhaps it was their communist upbringing in Hungary
> that closed their eyes to the truth.  The fact is that I as an a American
> have learned many things here that the Hungarians in Hungary and elsewhere
> apparently have not yet (mostly). Moroever, it is very disturbing to see
> my countrymen(women) to have fallen thusly wherein they have no longer
> any fera (nor respect for God, life and humanity). They have been overtaken
> with the current liberalism which allows everything, that resepcts nothing
> and stays away from what is right and moral. If Zoli and I were in the
> same place you might even attempt to stone us beccause we dare to tell YOU
> that what you are doing is not what is right according to the Judeo-Christian
> ethic upon which the Israel, UK, USA, Canada, Australia and other Anglo world
> was based on for many many centuries.
>
> It is bad enough that YOU have fallen from the right path, but PLEASE
> PLEASE do not force me or my children to be witnesses to lawlessness
> against God or humnaity. Please do not tell my kids (or any kids for that
> matter) that they should know about killing others nor themselves -- it
> is WRONG!
>
> Some of this may apply to George as well........
>
> On Wed, 2 Oct 1996, George Antony wrote:
>
> > Aniko Dunford asked:
> >
> > > Peter/Zoltan -
> > > Question - are you two related?  Genetically or otherwise?
> >
> > By sentiments, certainly.  I must admit to astonishment over the emergence
> > of a particular type of Hungarian that I have not encountered in Hungary
> > before.
> >
> > People who are fanatically religious, in an intolerant and dogmatic way,
> > people who are clamouring for a very restrictive social agenda vis-a-vis
> > such issues as homosexuality and suicides.
> >
>
> <<<<<<<<<< We are NOT fanatical nor intolerant -- what we are intolerant
> about is that YOU insist that you want to change the basis upon which these
> wonderful blessed countries were created. It is that YOU are trying to
> force us to accept YOUR evil ways because you think that we are too rigid
> or dogmatic. We are neither.... but we do draw the line between being
> tolerant and being sinful.
>
> > The same people have no apparent understanding of how a modern
parliamentary
> > democracy works and even less of how a modern economy operates.  In both
> > they want a very centralized and authoritarian direction that is most
> > reminiscent of the heydays of the very Communist regimes that these people
> > claim as the incarnation of the Devil.
>
> <<<<<<<<<<< George you are full of it! It is you that do not understand
> how the system works, especially the American system, I have been to
> Australia, even Queensland (where it is hot and perhaps overheating your
> brain). I saw the STUPIDITY of arguing the opposite of EVERY issue just
> because the representative was on the opposite party. It was insane ---
> the party in power said that it was sunny outside, then the party out-ot
> power (opposition) stated that no it is dark outside. Neither was trying
> to find the truth, wasting time, energy, money and being stupid! So much
> for your parliamentary system -- it does not work, becuase of people like
> YOU who cannot accept the truth, who are not working for the overall
> benefit of others, but just wish to argue your empty oppositions to
> reality no matter what the cost!
>
> But there is a cost! YOU will find out one day the wrath of GOD...because
> YOU were placed in a sitaution to be able to help other people and you
> have fallen down on your job!
>
> I challenge you George any time about basic economics...I guess the
> problem is that you subscribe to liberal economic theories and I
> subscribe to consewrvative economic theories. The liberal economic
> theories have their proof of failure here in the states and
> elsewhere...more and more debt at the expense of the people! That's
> socialism/communism for you!
>
> > Representatives of such people have been appearing especially from among
> > the ranks of emigre Hungarians living in the US and, what really astonishes
> > me, from among Hungarians brought up in Hungary.
>
> <<<<< You should not be astonished at us but rather you...perhaps it is
> being upside down in the hot sun that is cause of your problems.  Just
> because one is from Hungary (brought up under the communists dogma --
> liberal BS does not mean that one canot find the truth and the right way
> things actually work.
>
> One day I will disclose something that many already know about the UK,
> America, and the British people that will shock you! Then you will have
> to make a choice, but no longer will you be ignorant about who and what
> WE are!
>
> Peter
Soltesz'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
Wow! Peter your last para got me worried. Please disclose
"something that many already know about the Uk, America ..."

Is it about the space people running for elections disguised as
liberal pinkos? But more than that, Please, please tell
us "who and what WE are". One can not bear the suspense, especially
if one already has an identity crisis or a beer belly.

Will remain
                     Mark O.F.
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In a message dated 96-10-02 14:06:49 EDT,  (_JELIKO)
writes:

<snip>
<< As long as I have the right to publicly disagree, I have zero problem with
 other's right of saying what they think in public.

 Regards, Jeliko. >>

How about when someone makes disparaging statements about you
and your country in public?

Marina
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Wed, 2 Oct 1996 00:40:38 -0400, Aniko Dunford
> wrote:

>Zolika, "Dra'ga" the "ultimate self acclaimed" brain in the universe .....
>At 06:25 PM 01/10/96 -0400, you wrote in answer to >Sam Stowe who wrote to
>to Zsargo Janos as way below:

[....]
>
>Sorry all ... I guess that I have reached the end of my ultimate tolarence
>in allotting this "Guest of the West" any more slack ... for lack of lingo,
>for lack of culture knowledge ... intelligence (ha?.. did I really say
>that)?  Whoops ... here I go, again, extending undully earned credit??? -
>But .... once, I  *really did* ask God to eventually extend to him the
>required brain power with which to put his teachings to work on a day to day
>basis! - Either the "eventual has not come as of yet, or he did not hear me?
>
>Regards to all (to Zolika Draga - no regards)
>Aniko

Dear Aniko,

Notwithstanding my personal dislike for anyone who 'bites the hand
that feeds him/her' I tend to agree with Jeliko, inasmuch as the
Internet is neither a democracy, nor a republic, but rather a
self-regulated anarchy. As such. it has room for all sorts of
creatures of habit, ideas, shapes & sizes, dimensions, and 'soap
boxes.'

Not unlike the United States, the Internet seems to be doing well,
even if, among some brilliant ideas and resources, it also contains
considerable garbage. It is this woof and warp of Internet's fabric
that makes it both exciting, unpredictable, and forever evolving. And
the Yin and Yang coexist to balance each other.

I will not insult the readership of this list by expousing untenable
hypotheses with regards to this yong gentleman's motivation(s) for
spewing forth such utter bilge. Suffices to say, he is not a fire that
warms my heart, nor anyone else's, for that matter.

To continue with the metaphor of the fire, given that we do not know
the cause, the origin, or its kind, the best course of action (in all
such cases) is to withhold fuel: no fire can exist without oxygen.

As I mentioned (obliquely) in an earlier post:

     "Cave quid dicis, quando, et cui."

Clearly, either the aphorism escapes him or he chooses to ignore it.

So be it. Tit for tat.

Bandi
> =============================================================
      Andrew J. Rszsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
                 <mailto:>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
          Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
> =============================================================
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In a message dated 96-10-02 09:25:47 EDT,  (Peter A.
Soltesz) writes:

<< First let me state that I find it quite interesting that both Aniko
>Dunford and Marina Pflieger (both Canadians)
Hey, I am an American! I love Canada though and if I was not living here, I
would
   prefere to live in Canada. I have lived in America for almost 40 years
now. America
   gave me my most cherished possession: my personal freedom! I am hanging
   on to it for dear life.

>have fallen from being
>god fearing people. Perhaps it was their communist upbringing in Hungary
>that closed their eyes to the truth.
>The fact is that I as an a American
>have learned many things here that the Hungarians in Hungary and elsewhere
>apparently have not yet (mostly). Moroever, it is very disturbing to see
>my countrymen(women) to have fallen thusly wherein they have no longer
>any fera (nor respect for God, life and humanity).
Now than, (I am getting a bit of impatient with you....), can you tell me how
    you have determined that Aniko and me  "have fallen thusly wherein.....
    have no longer any fera (nor respect for God, life and humanity)."
[direct quote]
    How dare do you call us some "fallen thusly wherein" - - with no fera
yet?
    I want you to know, that I have all the fera I need. I can't speak for
Aniko
    on this, but the last time I heard from her, she did say something about
    being all out. I told her: don't fear there is planty around everywhere.

As I told you above, my supreme posession on this earth is my
     personal freedom and I will not let anyone fool around with it.
     This is why I always go to the polls and vote in every election. I don't
      fall for all the phony stuff  spread by television and radio preachers.

A cary a small piece of papaer in my purse, written on it is a quote
      from Thomas Jefferson:
                                  "...I have sworn upon
                                   the altar of god
                                   eternal hostility
                                   against every form of
                                   tyranny over the mind
                                   of man."

>One day I will disclose something that many already know about the UK,
>America, and the British people that will shock you! Then you will have
>to make a choice, but no longer will you be ignorant about who and what
>WE are!
>Peter Soltesz

I can hardly wait!

Reszemrol a faklyas menet......
+ - Re: Peter Soltesz (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,  says...
>
>I know I should not react to anything Peter writes...but I can't stand
>him saying these things to Andy.
>

>Peter, your mouth is moving like a runaway train....please spear us the
>agony!
>Who do you think you are - - who made you king, god, the messiah
>that you are "alerting" us to mend our ways.
>
>Would like to remind you of the old Hungarian saying:
>   "Soporj a salyat hazad elott..." / Sweep in front of your own door...
>
>Marina

I second the motion - Agnes
>=====================================================
>In article
>, "Peter
>A. Soltesz" > writes:
>
>>Dear Andy:
>>I guess I am bevildered and disgusted that as a Jew of Hungarian
>>extraction you do not appear to be upholding the bibles commandments. I
>>guess if you wish to call them blinders that is your priviledge, but at
>>least I am focused on trying to alert people of their errors -- by your
>>definition one should have open ears, eyes, mouths, etc. to be accepted
>>by you and other (Canadians, liberals, etc.) an according to you one
>>should just ignore the fact that serious crimes are being committed
>>and now we are training our children to solve their problems via murder
>>and suicide, etc. For shame shame.....
>
+ - Re: Definition of politics (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, #
says...
<snip>..
>Son: Dad, I think I understand politics.
>Dad: That's great son, explain it to me in your own words.
>Son: While the management is screwing the working class, the
>government is fast asleep, the people are being completely ignored and
>the future is full of shit.

>Sorry, but I couldn't resist this joke's timeliness....

Love it! Thanks!...and its close to the knuckle *timelessness*...:-)

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy ** Commodore=64...ICPUG ** NW London CC
+ - Definition of politics (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I apologize for the mildly off-color language, but I am forwarding
this as received:

> ==================================================================
                          Definition Of Politics

Son: Dad, I have a special report for school.  Can I ask you a
question?

Dad: Sure son, what's the question?

Son: What is politics?

Dad: Well son, let's take our home for example.  I am the wage earner,
so let's call me the management.  Your mother is the administrator of
the money, so let's call her the government.  We take care of you and
your needs, so let's call you the people.  We'll call the maid the
working class and your baby brother the future.  Understand?

Son: I'm not really sure dad, I'll have to think about it.

That night, the boy is awakened by his baby brother's crying, so he
goes to see what is wrong.  Discovering that the baby has a heavily
soiled nappy, the boy goes to his parent's room and finds his mother
fast asleep.  He then goes to the maid's room, where, peeking through
the keyhole, he sees his father in bed with the maid.  The boy's
knocking goes totally unheard.  The boy goes back to his room and goes
to sleep.

The next morning...

Son: Dad, I think I understand politics.

Dad: That's great son, explain it to me in your own words.

Son: While the management is screwing the working class, the
government is fast asleep, the people are being completely ignored and
the future is full of shit.
> =================================================================

Sorry, but I couldn't resist this joke's timeliness....

Bandi

> =============================================================
      Andrew J. Rszsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
                 <mailto:>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
          Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
> =============================================================
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
 says...
>The person who first contributed the article regarding the happiness that
>can be attained after suicide was strange: Who has killed themselves and
>come back to talk about it?  That's just more talking (fantasizing) w/o
>knowing.
>However, the comment above that says, "Just because some Japanese and other
>cultures perform ritualistic suicides does NOT make them right!" does not
>say much either, .... because: just because Judeo-Christian religious ethic
>abso-lutely forbids it does NOT just make it wrong!
>There are many good and very godless people out there. It's often the
>people who are sure they "have God" who are scarey. Suicide affects on the
>religious as well as non-religious. People can have morals without having
>a god.
>I do not believe in a god, but I see suicide as being horrible because of
>its utter 'finality.' If you want to solve any kind of problem, you can try
>solutions, think of options, try other possibilities... but suicide kills
>off all options and rips you away from the scene. I couldn't imagine my
>soul moving on with an unresolved problem... that I now would NEVER be able
>to solve because. I commited suicide. What an eternal haunt.

This is a most fascinating posting, Mark! IMHO the original posting
(by Lon Roberts) advocating suicide on BLH was extremely mischievous.
Hungarians (who largely subscribe to Judaic-Christian traditions) are,
as you and others have stated, particularly prone to suicide. Judging
from his posting I also doubt that the original poster knows that much
about the subject.

There is some *evidence* for what happens to suicides if one is prepared
to accept certain scriptures (including Kabbalah) and psychic testimonies
(assuming one does not already have direct psychic experience). On such
evidence suicide is not advisable, mostly because it is done for negative
reasons. Self-sacrifice (in a heroically unselfish sense, say, by a
soldier in a desperate combat situation on behalf of his comrades) is
quite different. When suicide is committed for negative reasons the soul
consciousness wanders for a long time in limbo in the intermediate state,
i.e., the suicide does not actually escape the unpleasantness he was trying
to free himself from and the astral psyche attempts to live out the rest
of that individual's incarnation. I've known several people who committed
suicide for one reason or another...one was a devout catholic(!) with a
well-paid job as an anaethesist; an op went wrong when the patient died
unnecessarily on the table..he blamed himself, became all doom and gloom
and committed suicide, but was exonerated following the inquiry...what I
find hard to understand in this particular case is that he left a wife and
four young children in the lurch...

Although there are traditions (including Gnosticism) that justify ritual
suicide, etc, in SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES (not the way Mr Roberts seemed
to be freely advocating it [and anyway, if it's so great, how come he's
still alive?]) they are entitled to their beliefs and it is an interesting
matter, but I strongly suspect that Mr Roberts' posting on BLH was purely
mischievous.

--
George Szaszvari
+ - Re: Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 01:22 AM 9/29/96 GMT, George Szaszvari wrote:

<snip>
>Joe, I cannot comment on Jeliko (that's your private war) and ...

George, I don't have a war with him.  Besides, he has the right to delete
any post he wishes.  And I don't take it personally.  I just think it's a
futile attempt to gain control of one's personal agenda since no control can
be had on the internet.  Also, I don't think he liked my proctology crack a
couple of months ago.

>I don't completely agree about the *thank you* replies, since people
>are often grateful for the information and many on this group have
>a genuine family-like interest in fostering exchanges and relationships
>with others that have Hungarian connections.

I should have been more clear in what I meant.  I didn't have these people
in mind.

>The BIG EXCEPTION is where
>they are obviously being sycophantic, OR WORSE, saying *thank you for
>agreeing with me* on a contentious issue, which only betrays that ego,
>and not a passion for truth, is their agenda...ugh!

Yeah, these are the one's I had in mind.

You know, a lot of these folks invested a lot of time and energy creating a
world where their ideas and beliefs are not challenged.  I think most older
people have perfected this bubble of tranquillity that they surround
themselves with.  And when their ideas or beliefs are challanged, as they
often are on the internet, they don't know how to react.  Sad.

Joe Szalai

Being incapable of conjugating the verb to be,
we conjugate instead the verb to have.
But as the verb to have can lead us nowhere,
for nothing lasting can be acquired,
we seek indefinitely to have more.
Such is the source of our enslavement.
                   Robert Linssen
+ - Amazing Hungarians in the US (Was: Re: Amazing America) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Peter Soltesz wrote:

> On Wed, 2 Oct 1996, George Antony wrote:
> > By sentiments, certainly.  I must admit to astonishment over the emergence
> > of a particular type of Hungarian that I have not encountered in Hungary
> > before.

> <<<<<<<<<< We are NOT fanatical nor intolerant -- what we are intolerant
> about is that YOU insist that you want to change the basis upon which these
> wonderful blessed countries were created. It is that YOU are trying to
> force us to accept YOUR evil ways because you think that we are too rigid
> or dogmatic. We are neither.... but we do draw the line between being
> tolerant and being sinful.

Well, actually I did not mention names but many thanks for putting your
hand up.  Obviously you recognized yourself in the mirror held up in front
of you which is a good indication that I found my mark.

> > The same people have no apparent understanding of how a modern parliamentar
y
> > democracy works and even less of how a modern economy operates.  In both
> > they want a very centralized and authoritarian direction that is most
> > reminiscent of the heydays of the very Communist regimes that these people
> > claim as the incarnation of the Devil.
>
> <<<<<<<<<<< George you are full of it! It is you that do not understand
> how the system works, especially the American system, I have been to
> Australia, even Queensland (where it is hot and perhaps overheating your
> brain). I saw the STUPIDITY of arguing the opposite of EVERY issue just
> because the representative was on the opposite party. It was insane ---
> the party in power said that it was sunny outside, then the party out-ot
> power (opposition) stated that no it is dark outside. Neither was trying
> to find the truth, wasting time, energy, money and being stupid! So much
> for your parliamentary system -- it does not work, becuase of people like
> YOU who cannot accept the truth, who are not working for the overall
> benefit of others, but just wish to argue your empty oppositions to
> reality no matter what the cost!

Well, we must be doing something right if you find our political sytem
objectionable.  It is also comforting to know that you are safely out
of this country without having left your mark on it.  At least the number
of native-grown Queensland politicians sounding as incoherent as you
seems to be if anything on the decline.  In other part of Australia we
even have politicians who profess a mixture of social tolerance and
some hard-nosed and rational economic direction: may they proliferate.

> But there is a cost! YOU will find out one day the wrath of GOD...because
> YOU were placed in a sitaution to be able to help other people and you
> have fallen down on your job!

Could someone please translate this to English.

> I challenge you George any time about basic economics...I guess the
> problem is that you subscribe to liberal economic theories and I
> subscribe to consewrvative economic theories. The liberal economic
> theories have their proof of failure here in the states and
> elsewhere...more and more debt at the expense of the people! That's
> socialism/communism for you!

The problem is that you have no idea about economics beyond the most
simplistic tabloid headlines and even then you are fundamentally confusing
the economic stand of your heroes with that of your perceived enemies.

For every time you utter something like "salaries are too low in Hungary
and the government should do something about it" you are in fact
following the 'liberal' state-interventionist approach to economic
management.  Real conservatives believe that the markets are the answer
to everything and the government should butt out altogether.  Real US
conservatives are true capitalists, unlike the confused Hungarian pseudo-
conservatives who prefer a coctail of religious extremism and the purest
of anticapitalist corporatism and statism that would make Mussolini
and Khrushchev proud even though their religions were a little different.

> One day I will disclose something that many already know about the UK,
> America, and the British people that will shock you! Then you will have
> to make a choice, but no longer will you be ignorant about who and what
> WE are!

Wow, that promise sounds more like a threat, not too far off the Day of
Judgement.  I can hardly wait.

George Antony
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:04 AM 10/3/96 +0100, Janos Zsargo wrote:

>Are you serious?!?!?!?!? It is possible that my English is bad but so
>much!?

I am sorry, maybe I am just too sensitive to this issue and read things that
are not even there.

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Re: Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 04:51 AM 10/2/96 -0400, Sam Stowe wrote:

>Yes, Ross Perot -- what a God-like man he is! <Snicker!> Actually, Joe,
>I'm giving some thought to casting my votes for that pack of
>nuts...STATESMEN, I mean statesmen, affiliated with the Maharishi. You
>know the ones I'm talking about? If we could all meditate, we'd all be a
>lot happier? And the sig is from Plato. Wonder if he had jug ears and a
>Texas twang?

Is that what they're called in the US?  Here they call themselves the
Natural Law Party and they had candidates in every electoral riding in the
last federal election.  And they got nowhere!  I guess the first time people
encounter them they're interesting, like pet rocks.  I wouldn't be surprised
if they had candidates in the next election in Hungary.  And I wouldn't be
surprised if they did better there than here.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Amazing America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 10:53 AM 10/3/96 EDT, Mark Humphreys, responding to Peter Soltesz, wrote:

<snip>
>With so many schools in America, you can find some weird person somewhere
>teaching odd things to others, but why jump the gun and say the whole system
>is collapsing and all the schools are conspiring to do the same thing???

Fear, above all else, but also, hatred, decay, and visions of Armageddon are
his motivational tools.  Without them he would be lost.  How sad!

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 10:56 PM 10/2/96 -0400, Marina E. Pflieger wrote:

>In a message dated 96-10-02 14:06:49 EDT,  (_JELIKO)
>writes:
>
><snip>
><< As long as I have the right to publicly disagree, I have zero problem with
> other's right of saying what they think in public.
>
> Regards, Jeliko. >>
>
>How about when someone makes disparaging statements about you
>and your country in public?

Controlling it is more dangerous than ignoring it.

Joe Szalai
+ - Canada and the Hungarian Revolution (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear List Members:

Would you care to comment on my Canada and 1956? Should I keep on posting
the rest of the essay?

Sincerely,

Peter

Peter I. Hidas
Montreal
+ - Re: Canada and the Hungarian Revolution (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:36 AM 10/5/96 -0400, Peter I. Hidas wrote:

>Dear List Members:
>
>Would you care to comment on my Canada and 1956? Should I keep on posting
>the rest of the essay?
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Peter
>
>Peter I. Hidas
>Montreal

Yes.  Please keep posting the rest of the essay.  If someone doesn't like
them or finds them too long they can always delete them.  Some of us were on
our way to Canada when all these things were happening in 1956.  I'm
somewhat familiar with the events in Hungary in '56 but never bothered to
find out what was happening in Canada at that time.  It's about time I found
out what was happening and thanks to your research, I am.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Gabor D. Farkas wrote:

>As far as your last sentence is concerned, I find it objectionable. Are you
>complaining about too many survivors? Or what do you mean?

I wrote earlier:

> Only the facts count, like the hungarian
> authorities was involved in the deportations regardless of their average
> 'humanity', or the hungarian jews were basicly in safety untill 1944
>regardless the jewish laws. This all stuff about the details is good only
>to cause more pains to the survivors.
>(And it seems there are quite a few on this list.)

What I ment:

Csak a tenyek szamitanak, ugymint: a magyar hatosagok resztvettek a deporta-
lasok vegrehajtasaban attol fuggetlenul, hogy milyen volt az atlagos 'huma-
nitasuk', vagy a magyar zsidosag lenyegeben biztonsagban volt 1944-ig a zsi-
dotorvenyektol fuggetlenul. Ez az egesz herce-hurca a deportalasok reszletei
korul csak arra jo, hogy a tuleloknek tovabbi fajdalmat okozzon.
(es ugy tunik van egynehany ezen a listan.)

Egyszerubben kifejezve tehat, nem erdemes emlegetni, mivel csak felszaggatjuk
a regi sebeket. (<- Ez csak magyarazat, nem volt benne az eredeti szovegbe.)

Also you wrote:

>Are you complaining about too many survivors?

Are you serious?!?!?!?!? It is possible that my English is bad but so
much!?

J.Zs

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