Doug Hormann ) wrote:

: While those countries embracing capitalism have proven to have
: generally high standards of living, it's readily apparent that wide
: disparities exist.

like indonesia, chile, brazil, venezuala, the philippines, nigeria,
liberia, .....

d.a.

At 11:35 PM 1/23/96 -0500, Andras Kornai wrote:

>To the extent (always very limited) that we can indulge in judging a whole
>group, Hungarian men deserve quite a bit of criticism in regards to how
>they treat (Hungarian) women.
Men, Hungarian or otherwise, need more than just criticism.  They need to be
shown that they are inadequate if they don't share the housework.  And they
need to be shown this by other men.

>> I'm just itching for a good spanking.
>Gotta find someone else, bondage appeals to me more than discipline.
Yes, I thought so.  But Sir, I'm quite flexable.

>Are you familiar with the Hungarian cultural icon Mo1ricka?  A regular
>character in Hungarian jokes, Mo1ricka is a schoolboy with an
>absolutely one-track mind..
You're starting to sound retentive.  Perhaps Moricka and I realize that we
only live once and, after all, living well is the best revenge.

>Indeed. Economic necessity is part of the real world, social equality
>is part of several incompatible ideology packages ranging from Christianity
>to Communism.
So anyone who wants to make this a better world is being unrealistic?  Or
are you too complacent to lend a hand?  Too busy looking out for number one?

>OK, so I don't see equal pay for equal work as a moral imperative, and
>I sleep well.
No doubt you do.  I guess moral imperatives become more important when
you're not at the top and become worthless concepts when you are.  For some,
morality may as well be a commodity to be traded on the stock market.

>I also don't see this debate (or any e-mail debate)
>threatening my status as a privilaged man living in North America, you
>are right.
It's too early to say what the effects of the internet will be.

>Further, you are quite right that I see social issues (all
>social issues including the ones that put me in on the disadvantaged
>side) as fodder for a philosophical debate.
I too was alienated from society once.  But waiting for Godot turned out to
be absurd.

>You, being part of the mighty revolutionary avant-garde fighting for
>women's rights, will of course want to change the world, rather than
>understand it.
Wrong.  I'm not fighting for women's rights.  I'm fighting (must we use that
word?) for my right to live in a world where we treat each other with
dignity, respect, equality, fairness, understanding, compassion, and
helpfullness.  That's what I'm fighting for because I believe that I have a
right to live in that kind of a world.  And do you know what Andras?  I
don't want to scare you but I know that I'm going to win.  I'm going to use
the most powerful weapons available - ideas, words, and language.  Do you
understand?

>Spend your sleepless vigil well!
I do.  Koszi.

Joe Szalai

On 15 Jan 1996 01:20:02 -0500,  (GemFP) wrote:

>I, too am doing genealogy research on family members from Hungary
>(surnames ADLER and BOGNER), as well as a town called L. St. Ivan which
>existed in the 1880s.  Someone E-mailed me with the following information
>on that town which apparently no longer exists:
>
>>There are/were several Szentivan; one was in Lipto' megye (county), hence
>>the `L.' could mean "Lipto' Szentiva'n" . Now Liptovsky' in the Slovak
>>Republic.
>
>I looked up this in my Atlas (which is outdated - 1989) and couldn't find
>Liptovsky on the map (I also tried using the Index but found that about 40
>pages were missing (including all the "L's")!!!
>
>Does anybody have any knowledge of where this town or province might havev
>been or where the Slovak Republic is?  Any major cities near Liptovsky
>would be helpful!
>
>Thanks to all!
>
>Lynn Fox-Perez
>
>
>--       ...in the pursuit of knowledge

The Slovak Republic is a new country since the split-up in ?1990 of
Thecho/SLOVAKIA.
The Slovak Republic is situated between Poland and Hungary.
Slovakia was before 1919/1920 part of Hungary.

I think Lipto ..etcetera is in the north of Slovakia. Near or in the
Tatra Mountains:    High Tatra or Low Tatra.
To look it upyou have to use a Atlas printed before 1919/ 1920


Greetings from Amsterdam in the Netherlands,

Louis S. Madarasz








Greetings from Amsterdam in the Netrherlands,

Louis S. Madarasz

Hi,

I have a hungarian name.

My family left Hungary about 1805 - 1810
They lived near the Tatra Moutains
Townname in hungarian:    Strba    / perhaps Csorba
(Now Slovakia, but before 1919/1920 Hungarian Territory

Who knows something about Genealogy in Hungary
/Slovakia (former Hungarian Territory.)

Or something about my name: Madarasz

Or about the town Strba


Newsgroups: bit.listserv.hungary
Subject: Who knows something about Genealogy in Hungary /Slovakia
(former Hung.) about my name: Madarasz
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 05:35:39 GMT
X-Attachment:

Hi,

I have a hungarian name.

My family left Hungary about 1805 - 1810

They lived near the Tatra Moutains
Townname in hungarian:    Strba    / perhaps Csorba
(Now Slovakia, but before 1919/1920 Hungarian Territory)

Who knows something about Genealogy in Hungary
/Slovakia (former Hungarian Territory.)

-Or something about my name: Madarasz
What does it mean?
Are there many people with this name?

-Or about the town Strba


Greetings from Amsterdam,

Louis S. Madarasz

Please, visit my new hungarian homepage and add more links !
Let me know if you have any idea to make it more interesting.
Thanks !

Kinga
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

http://www.cyberg8t.com/kinga.html
"Nem eleg sikeresnek lenni;
 masoknak is kudarcot kell vallani."

So what are you talking about, the History exam,
or the Hungarian Literature exam? They were both
obligatory in HUngary, not like in the UK, where you
have to choose between History and Geography in a
lot of schools when you are 13, and can give up both,
if you want when you are 15.
I don't believe that Hungarian Literature won't be
an obligatory subject of "erettsegi", if that exam
is not abolished anyway, as is in the books now
for years.
Your text was so overrun
with worked up nacionalist/chauvinist emotions, that
it was more or less unintelligable.
Eva Durant

I don't know if you noticed, but there were no girls
discussing this issue on this list, unfortunately.
I think it more important than Hungarian Sport,
which seemed ok with you...
Eva Durant (not Dr not Dr)

>
> HUNGARY FEMINISM (OVER)
>
>   Girls !!!!!!!!
>   Hungarian Feminism ========> SZALON
>   I guess the Hungary is not a proper media for it.
>   Szalon was created strickly for this !!!
>
>                          Dr. Dr. K.S.

ibokor ) wrote:
: Stowewrite ) wrote:
: :
: : Hi, John:
: : Whoever "corrected you" did you a sharp disservice. The script
: : consistently refers to Soze as being Hungarian throughout.

: that may be true. but he does not have a name which is even vaguely
: hungarian, neither in spelling nor in pronunciation.

And now, after all the insane, ping-ponging attacks and peripheral
discussions about the subtexts in "The Usual Suspects" -- sincere thanks
yous to Doug and Sam for contributing to both these threads -- I have
finally been told by a "real" Turk (the father of a friend) that "Soze"
is the Turkish word for "word" in the dative case.

Just thought I should round off the discussion.


--
phthisis

Private property existed for centuries, that is what caused
women's "degradation" to property status so long ago.
There can be some improvemt in the lot of economically
more powerful middle-class women who can afford to pay
for childcare, however the financial climate (as described)
will not allow companies to finance nurseries/child care
facilities, and there are not large enough amount of taxes
now collectable to be spent on this. So the markets  just
cannot sort out this problem for the majority, sorry.
Eva Durant


>
>         Eva,  If (and I agree) the economic system, capitalism, pressures
> companies to make the best economic and market decisions, doesn't it seem
> that the system then would promote true gender equality?  By your argument
> the most economically efficient person, man or woman, would win out.  The
> problem, as I see it, doesn't lie with the economic system.  Female
> subordination seems to be universally present to one extent or another in
> all economic systems.
>
>         Basically, you can't blame the system for a social ill that
> predated the system by centuries.  If you do, you look for solutions in the
> wrong place.  Manipulation of the system through taxation or other means
> can help to solve this problem,  but it isn't the causal factor.
>
> Regards,
>
> Doug Hormann
> 

>
>         I could as well ask you this.  If all you can do is point to a
> utopian system that exists only in the minds of its admirers and has never
> worked in real life, i. e. socialism, then your argument is truly built on
> a foundation of sand.
>

If you call a system utopian, you have to list a few reasons why
you think it cannot put into practice. The "never worked"
point has been answered in my previous mail,  - it is not sufficient.
Eva Durant

> again those questions that you forgot (or did not want) to answer on the
> *Forum*. What will prevent this future socialist/communist system to
> reproduce those weaknesses shown by the 'existing socialism'? For example:
>

I don't remember seeing these questions, I would have been
glad to answer them, I remember usually, if a discussion is
actually makes sense, it did not happen very often on "Forum",
so I don't waste my time on it now.


> i, If there is no market economy, than there should be some kind of
>    planned production, economy. How can someone predict the needs of
>    a society or the behaviour of an economical system with a considerable
>    error? This is an almost impossible task, as far as I know.
>

The problem is, that you cannot imagine a system, based on
democracy built from grassroots. First, I would like to point out,
that planning has a progressively more important role now in the market
economy. However, as the economy that is based on the "blind forces"
of the market, this planning cannot take into account the chaotic
movements of moneymarkets and speculation, which has now a major
role to play in the world econmy.  In a socialist system that
is democratic, there won't be a burocrat dreaming up figures
in his well cushioned room.  With the help of advanced informmation
technology, there is a chance now to have detailed information
on production capacities, and democratic decisionmaking on what
the people actually think necessary/desirable to be produced.
This way enormous amount of waste can be prevented. This task
of expert and democratic planning is a very practicable idea,
indeed.

> ii, How can the flexibility of a state or 'society' owned company can be
>     maintained, and enhanced burocracy can be avoided. It is a well known
>     fact that state owned companies were burocratic, rigid and produced
>     rather deficit than sufficit and not only in the former socialist
>     countries.
>

Yes, state owned companies everywhere were inefficient as they
inherited the old type of management coupled by administrative
controlls from the ministeries.   However, if the companies
are independent units, managed by elected bodies, that consists
of their workers, local residents, experts and whomever deamed
useful for that particular place, than all they need from
a "centre" is a help to get information about desirable
production quotas, scientific/environmental information and
similar database - role, that infact can be altered and updated
by them if necessary.   These companies will
not go out of business due to fallen demand, lower prices of
competitors, etc, etc.  But if some of them would have to wind
up for some reason, the workers won't end up on the scrapheap
of unemployment, as there would be enough opportunities and
flexibility to find new jobs.


> iii, How can the transition from capitalism to socialism/communism be
>      done democratically. Can you ask Bill Gates to give his empire
>      to the society? And how the repolarization (in economical sense)
>      can be prevented democratically?
>


The more inequality, injustice, frustration builds up the
more unlikely is a chance for peaceful change, in my opinion.
I think even Bill Gates would be happy to give up his empire,
if he knows he can live in a peaceful world, when he cannot
go bankrupt withh his next venture, he is not threatenned
in any way, and his creative ideas - if any - can be utilised
wider.  There would be compensation on proven need, ofcourse.
The general standard of living will be higher anyway, and
characterising people by "what they own" will loose it's meaning.


> iIV, This kind of socialist/communist sociaties requires that peoples
>      understand/acknowledge the global interest of the society. Very
>      few 'bad guys' (especially in high position) is enough to poisson
>      and eventually destroy such a system. How can this be prevented?
>


Interesting to put it llike that, as if there were not "bad guys"
around now...  If there was opportunity to achieve a creative/
fulfilling and comfortable life in a normal way for everybody,
I think the motivation "to be bad" would disappear.  The stress
and violence that causes mental problems also leading to
violence would lessen.  However, I can picture a sort of
neighbourhood watch type local, democratically organised
defence units, if necessary.   This society would be capable,
when the need arises - anyone could raise suggestions -
to create a unit to destroy all dangerous material/arm,
as this again is democratically controlled, there should
be less chance of terrorist destruction, as there is now.


> If you cannot give a reasonable answer to any of the above questions,
> your future society either won't differ from the 'existing socialism',
> or not more than a dream.
>

Well, is it reasonable enough?

Eva Durant

> Indeed. Economic necessity is part of the real world, social equality
> is part of several incompatible ideology packages ranging from Christianity
> to Communism.
>

So you are saying social equality shouldn't be on the agenda,
if you have a market economy, as it is incompatible with it.
History is in the past couple of hundred years semm to be
preoccupied with this issue. You think we should give up
and put up with the injustices of capitalism for ever?
Eva Durant

At 00:53 23/01/96 -0500, Joe G. Szalai wrote:
>At 05:42 PM 1/22/96 -0500, Johanne L. Tournier wrote:
>
>>Okay, if you tell me what the "queen bee syndrome" is, I'll give it my best
>>shot!
>
>I was making a rather snide remark.  Your negative remarks about feminism
>reminded me of those women who managed to succeed in their chosen field only
>to say that being a women was no obstacle to them.  It's like Maggie
>Thatcher saying that being a women was never a handicap for her.  I've
>always believed that the subtext in comments like that is that a woman only
>has herself to blame if things don't turn out the way she wanted.
>
>I think the 'queen bee syndrome' refers to the fact that every hive has only
>one female, the queen.  And that queen bee can say (if bees could talk) that
>being female was not a problem for her.  No kidding, eh?  Anyway, your
>comments about feminism sounded like queen bee talk.
>
>Joe Szalai

Dear Joe -

Well, let me respond, too, with a sort of snide response and, hopefully that
will be the end of the snideness, and we can get on with other more
interesting discussions.  It appears to me that you, who seem to have a
polemical bent, have attempted to meet my argument with a rather personal
attack, rather than dealing with the issues I raised head on.  A couple of
points - obviously neither you nor the person who coined the term "queen bee
syndrome" are beekeepers.  The queen is the mother of the hive.  The reason
she has a coterie of bees who feed her and care for her is that she becomes
a virtual egg-laying machine, and the future of the hive depends on her
well-being.  If the queen dies suddenly and the workers are not able to
create a new queen from a young worker larva, the colony is doomed to die.
Even though some of the workers may develop the ability to lay eggs, their
eggs when they hatch produce only drones, and because the workers will not
then accept another queen the colony is doomed to die.  Is the queen the
ruler of the colony or the slave of the colony?  It all depends on your
point of view, I guess.  If you choose to see an exploiter, then the
relationship is exploitive.  I prefer to see it as mutually dependent. Being
female is not a problem for the queen bee, because animals cannot question
their destiny, and in the world of bees, anatomy is destiny.

It is interesting that you think I would say that I had no trouble in being
a woman, like Maggie Thatcher.  I am not a Maggie Thatcher, although I
admire her tremendously for her gumption and willingness to be forthright, a
rare commodity in politicians.  But I would never say I had no trouble in
being a woman - for gosh sakes, I had trouble just in BEING when I was a
teenager.  It is just that I hate labels in general which I think are
unrealistically simplistic, and I do think using a label like "feminist" is
divisive.  That doesn't mean that I don't want most of the things feminists
want, indeed I take them for granted.  I also think it is futile to blame
"the system" for problems that I have had - it is far better to realize that
there are some things we cannot change and get on with life.  Also I
experienced as many problems from women in positions of power when I was in
the service as I ever did from men, even though many of the men I worked
with held typical male chauvinist views.

Also partially as a result of my observations of the government here in
Canada and the United States, I have a rather jaundiced view that when the
government tries to solve a perceived problem by means of sweeping
government legislation, the end result are new injustices which cry out for
new solutions and so on and so on.  It is part of the law of unintended
consequences.  Despite the best of intentions, the measures instituted by
government often have unexpected results and give rise to new opportunities
for abuse.

I can't speak for other women, but I have been fortunate to find a husband
who is extremely supportive of me and is very unthreatened by my success.
This liberated attitude seems to be more common among Canadian men than
among the average American male (and the average Hungarian?).  One lady
commented that I missed the point which was that it should not be women who
have to make the choice between job and child-rearing.  I find that the
average Canadian male is much more likely to be ready to share housekeeping
and child-rearing duties, and I am sure in my case (no kids, just four dogs)
my husband does almost half of the housework.  I would say that there are
things the government can do to facilitate child-rearing, such as providing
opportunities for both parents to take parental leave. A real problem,
though is the impact on the employer. I as a sole professional cannot afford
to pay my secretary to take six months maternity leave and pay to employ
another secretary at the same time, even though I might personally wish to
do it.

Now somebody has indicated that we should confine this discussion to
"SZALON." Oh, my, doesn't that sound terribly like saying, if women want to
discuss these things, they should take themselves to the kitchen?  I do
think a discussion of feminist ideas is relevant to a general forum on
Hungary, because Hungary is dealing with the same problems in society that
we are dealing with here in North America.  And, even though these issues
may be boring to some people, it is important that they should be discussed.
I hate to say it, but what about all this discussion about sports?  Isn't
there a forum where all the guys should go who want to discuss sports?

Yours,

Johanne

e-mail - 

>
> Also partially as a result of my observations of the government here in
> Canada and the United States, I have a rather jaundiced view that when the
> government tries to solve a perceived problem by means of sweeping
> government legislation, the end result are new injustices which cry out for
> new solutions and so on and so on.  It is part of the law of unintended
> consequences.  Despite the best of intentions, the measures instituted by
> government often have unexpected results and give rise to new opportunities
> for abuse.
>
I agree, burocratic shortcuts, such as enforced positive discrimi-
nation doesn't achieve anything but turns people against the ideas
advocated,especially if there is no supporting framework of
education and funds.

> I can't speak for other women, but I have been fortunate to find a husband
> who is extremely supportive of me and is very unthreatened by my success.
> This liberated attitude seems to be more common among Canadian men than
> among the average American male (and the average Hungarian?).  One lady
> commented that I missed the point which was that it should not be women who
> have to make the choice between job and child-rearing.  I find that the
> average Canadian male is much more likely to be ready to share housekeeping
> and child-rearing duties, and I am sure in my case (no kids, just four dogs)
> my husband does almost half of the housework.  I would say that there are
> things the government can do to facilitate child-rearing, such as providing
> opportunities for both parents to take parental leave. A real problem,
> though is the impact on the employer. I as a sole professional cannot afford
> to pay my secretary to take six months maternity leave and pay to employ
> another secretary at the same time, even though I might personally wish to
> do it.
>
Aha, you are blaming the system!!! And there is every reason to!

I wonder if you share the responsibilities
of home or just the chores?   This is the real difference.
The problem is if it is still the woman who has to think of
the tiring details.  It is as soul-wracking to ask someone to do
the dishes, than doing them. The real "sharing" is if the other person
does tasks without being reminded.   Women are blamed, that they
think of trivial and boring detais, but they are forced to; if
they don't - nobody else will. Thus they have less capacity left
to think of the creative and uplifting thoughts... but we'll
get there - eventually.
Eva Durant

Jim, I don't think that we will see eye to eye on this subject.


>My original note was not intended to be a personal attack.  I have not=20
>found your writings, =C9va, at all bitchy (thus far).

I have objections to the word "bitchy" in the first place, and I must say I
am surprised that you think the way you do. And if you read Mr. Zsargo's and
Mr. Kristyan's writings of late I think you have to agree with me that they
are just dripping of sexism. Mr. Kristyan goes so far as sending us "girls"
to another forum. That's exactly what I was talking about and which you seem
to bagatalize.

Eva Balogh

Jim, you quote me thus:

>I do think your feminism is getting the better of you, =C9va.  I have been=
=20
>called Dzsimike or Dzimik=E9m by people of both sexes not infrequently.  I=
=20
>know, I'm only (!) 30 and those who use the "bece" form are older.  But it
is also=20
>not uncommon to hear "Dani-b=E1csi" (who is 60) call "Laci-b=E1csi" (who is=
=20
>about ten years older) as "Lacik=E1m".


And did anyone called you "kicsike'm"?

Eva Balogh

Joe Szalai objects to my using the word "we" in "we know your political
views." Fine, I can certainly change it to "I know your political views."
Mind you, I have been on this list for two years, and as far as I know there
have been only two ardent believers in utopistic socialism: you and Eva
Durant. Everybody else thought that Marx's utopia is nothing more than a utopia
.

Eva Balogh

>So what are you talking about, the History exam,
>or the Hungarian Literature exam? They were both
>obligatory in HUngary, not like in the UK, where you
  Both. The History exam was NOT reqiuirement in 1974 spring.
  I graduated at that time in high school. That was the first and last
  try at those years, since next year it was requirement again.
  I know the hung. literature exam is not planned to be kastrated.
  Only the hitory exams. But in a salami politics that may be the next, I hope
  not. I just did not want to write long letters.

>with worked up nacionalist/chauvinist emotions, that
>it was more or less unintelligable.
  1.:  That is it ! Talking about history exam as requirement, we encounter
  the nacionalism ...
  2.:  It seems to me you did not get the ticket, or "nem esett le
  a tantusz".

>I think it more important than Hungarian Sport,
>which seemed ok with you...
   OK.
   Hungarian Sport =======> Sport
   It seems to me girls do paticipate in the feminism discussion.

Martha writes :
>Szalon is in Hungarian.  This is an international list.  In English.
             ~~~~~~~~~                                      ~~~~~~~
   May be it is a reason.

                         Dr. Dr. K.S.

>>   Szalon was created strickly for this !!!
>
>Strictly for discussing feminism in Hungary ?
>Or perhaps I missed something in the translation ?
 I mean this=feminism, i.e.
 "Strictly for discussing feminism".
 In more confusing way :
 "Strictly for discussing feminism in Hungary in Szalon, but not
  strictly for discussing feminism in Hungary in Hungary."
  (For me it is clear like the mud (vilagos mint az iszap).)
  I am just curious when it (feminism discussion) will collaps into
  crude arguing.

>But if you find the topic irritating, no worries mate, just do not read
>the articles.
 I know, this is the "Page down rule" in Hix.

                         Dr. Dr. K.S.

I may not understand the name list in Hungary, but if I am on the
  list I receive 30-40 mails I am not intersted in most. When I
  send my notes to Hungary I sign up and thereafter sign off to avoid
  the email hurrican since all those will be in the next day Hungary.
    The only priviledge is that you can answer in the same issue (?).
  But would not it better NOT to receive the emails one by one, or
  is there any option to avoid it since it makes me sick. Polite
  answers welcomed (i.e. put an ice bag for 10 minutes on your
  forehead, or at least cool down before answer)!
                         Dr. Dr. K.S.

Haliho,

It is funny that only the fiuk are bantering about this, but don't discount the
sport aspect of it. Women in sport are a very important piece of the pie, here,
whether it be American or Hungarian. When women are past their prime, such as
Egerszegi Krisztina, Onodi Heni, Czigany Kinga, Koban Rita, Gyarmati Andrea
(remember her?), Temesvari Andrea, and the like, how do they get treated?? It
is safe (and shameful) to say that you'll never hear or see of them again,
unlike their male counterparts who can milk it till they pass away. So, is it
fair??

Think about it.

Udv.,
Czifra Jancsi
john_czifra @ shi.com

Aniko,

>Answered u once quickly, and it disappeared.  We'll try again.
>The Exp '96 in Hungarian is cancelled over a year go to my knowledge.
>More on you Email.  Hope this works,  I am pretty new at this!
>Regards
>Aniko

First off, thanks for the information.  I've since learned that the
informatin on www.lonelyplanet.com regarding Hungary is extremely outdated.
If not for replies from people like you, I would have been in for quite a
suprise when I got there.  I'm not disappointed about the Expo being
cancelled.  I hope to see Hungary as it is, not as it might be dressed up
for a foreign invasion.  As for your suggestions, I would love to have the
fax number if it isn't too much trouble.  I must confess, I do not speak
Hungarian.  Hopefully, the recipient of my messages will speak English or
know someone who does.  In the meantime, I've been studying a Hungarian
Language book I found.  Thanks for your help!

Yours,


Doug Hormann

I am afraid that Dr.Dr. Kristyan is not helping the case of Hungarian men:
his comments about the "girls" who should leave this list and go elsewhere,
precisely to the Szalon, a list which by right-wing circles is considered a
despised liberal stronghold, support all my observations on the subject of
inequality of women in Hungary and male attitudes toward them.

I don't think that I can express my outrage too forcefully. I am shocked not
so much at his comments but rather his total insensitivity. Unless, of
course, he considers this just a big joke, like his signature, Dr.Dr.,
which, I am afraid, he is the only one who finds funny! Most people finds it
ridiculous and pretentious. But since we are informed daily of the existence
of his two degrees may I ask: how is it possible for a man of his education
to be so ignorant?

Eva Balogh

>Doug Hormann ) wrote:
>
>: While those countries embracing capitalism have proven to have
>: generally high standards of living, it's readily apparent that wide
>: disparities exist.
>
>like indonesia, chile, brazil, venezuala, the philippines, nigeria,
>liberia,
>
>d.a.

Thanks for agreeing.  I have not and do not espouse capitalism as the end
of the line as far as economic progress is concerned.  It's biggest problem
as I see it is that it encourages a very short sighted plan vs. long term
economic planning.  Still I see it as one of the better roads to follow to
reach the ultimate goal of social and economic justice.  Following the
analogy, socialism, either in it's pure Marx/Engels ideal or in any of the
forms that it has taken in reality, is a dead end road.

Doug Hormann

Can someone translate (English, Francais, Nederlands) this hungarian text for
me?
Puis quelqu'un traduire ceci?
Kan iemand dit Hongaars vertalen?


Sriasi  sz|letisnapi  euli  hasbro  jatikokkal is vr|lj az zjboli talalkozasnak



Thanks
Merci
Bedankt

Sandor Kristyan asks about ways to receive Hungary postings:  since
this may be of wider interest to the list, let me answer to the whole
instead of directly to him:

You have two options besides receiving each piece of mail individually,
or simply unsubscribing ;-)... you can tell listserv to set your distri-
bution options to "digest", and you receive one mailing a day from the
listserv in digest format; or you can set hungary to "nomail" and read
the list traffic on hix or bit.listserv.hungary, and reply via the
email address "".  As long as you are subscribed,
your letters will be posted whether you have the list set to mail or
to nomail.

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew

Wow! I finally made it into this list and what a group of first messages!
Someone way upstairs has a heck of a sense of practical joking.

Please allow me to introduce myself and you'll understand this reaction to
the most recently posted messages by Eva Balogh, Sandor Kristyan, and John
Czifra that were the first things I received as a new member.

First, however I would like to humbly and very sincerely thank whomever was
the kind person who sent me the third message yesterday that finally
clarified who may subscribe and how.  The first message had made me feel
like I was being ostracized before I even got here, and did not say a thing
about the correct words, and forms of the words to use to subscribe, which
was the real problem.  Again, thank you very much for the assistance.

OK, some of you may know me already from the Hungarian Lobby, and some of
you may even know me personally.  First of all in this introduction, please
understand I try to not take myself or much of life too seriously, including
philosophical, political and social discussions.  For me, it helps to keep
my  sanity, especially since I've stumbled into more alligator-filled swamps
in the darnedest places than I ever thought could possibly exist.  (Never
did outgrow that childhood curiosity, overactive imagination and love of
adventure.)

My full legal name is Cecilia Linda Lee Fa'bos-Becker.  It reflects my mixed
up heritage.  My parents had an argument over my name when I was born,
neither backed down, and I lost.

My father is fully of Hungarian ancestry, was born a dual national, but has
never acknowledged anything but his U.S. citizenship.  He turned his back on
the old country almost completely.  It caused some problems--and comedy--in
my upbringing, because his parents, my paternal grandparents didn't agree,
and I was partly raised by them.  A long, gory story for some other year.
Dad wasn't unique, the conditions in the U.S. made becoming a homogenized
"American" a whole lot easier if one wanted to first survive, then prosper
especially if you chose not to live in the ethnic neighborhoods.  I think he
got a little tired of having to live like a U.S. Marine in combat situations
from age 5 to whenever.

My late mother was from a prominent Southern U.S. family of predominantly
Scottish, French and Native American ancestry.  Her maiden surname was
Wallace--out of the Missouri branch of the Wallaces, and yes she was a
fairly close cousin to some famous Wallaces of 50 years ago, and a lot of
real rascals, also throughout several hundred years.

Married, 25 years to Anthony Joseph Becker.  He refers to himself as "just
another typical American," but is actually of about 50% Austrian and
Austrian-Swiss ancestry and 50% Celtic--Irish, Scottish and Welsh.  He's an
electronics engineer (5 years degree), co-owns an engineering company for
which I still do some consulting work.  He is also an Extra Class licensed
amateur radio operator, AE0M, and plays classical and folk guitar, and
shares some of my other hobbies and interests.

I have a few college degrees--and even from highly reputable universities:
four fields of history, 3 of anthropology (mostly in archeology), drama, and
graduate work in mostly international public relations.  I am also an
amateur mineralogist and amateur radio operator: General Class license, call
sign N0BBS.  I am a semi-retired political and business consultant and have
had more than twenty years of combined business and employee experience with
business and county government, and simultaneously have been a political and
social activist for more than twenty five years.

Highlights(?--well it depends upon the background and beliefs of the
readers): co-founded a union of 1200 members and was first chief steward;
was McGovern campaign research, analysis officer and an adviser (no, he
didn't always take my advice--and really would have done better if he had)
in "home regional headquarters" (7 states of Midwest U.S.); 5th
Congressional District Minnesota Central Committee member; currently
Secretary of Americans from East Central Europe Coordinating
Committee--northern California chapter (have been member since 1989), and
have been the only non-Chinese director of Chinese democracy movement
organizations for more than five years--and the only non-Chinese member ever
of a mainlander exile run political organization.  (The last is not an
experience that I would recommend anyone, myself included, to repeat.)--Am
currently an active member of the Republican party.  Another long story, you
probably don't want to read just yet...

Hobbies and sports: hiking, swimming, geology/mineralogy, amateur radio,
gardening, forestry, reading and writing, cooking, knitting, and according
to my husband, "pure out-and-out trouble-making or trouble-shooting,
depending upon one's perspective."

Finally, I come by my talents (?) and interests honestly.  My grandfather
was a Hungarian reformer who ended up in exile courtesy of betrayal from the
English--and the willing collaboration of a few others who had various
interests.  He was the lucky one, some of his relatives and friends ended up
prematurely dead.  His personal crisis occurred, by the way, between
1905-1907.  Also Fa'bos is not the only family name for my family.
According to my Garai grandmother, we were actually a branch of the
Szecsenyi, and that's how you apparently do find us in the old imperial
archives.  Grandfather wasn't the first of his branch to run afoul of an
emperor on behalf of Hungary.  We were proscribed against in 1660 and not
"restored"--and it was really only partial, until 1713, only to "lose it
again" in 1906.  Our sense of timing seems to still need some development...

Finally, my mother learned well from some of her own ancestors and relatives
and pay close attention now:

ORGANIZED AND LED THE FIRST MAJOR STRIKE IN THE US ON THE ISSUE OF
COMPARABLE WORTH--AND GOT THE CITY OF SAN JOSE TO SURRENDER IN _9_ DAYS.
(July, 1981)

(I still wonder just how many--and what kinds of--lessons she took under her
cousin's, General Marshall's, direction so many years ago...)


Ok, this is getting a bit longer than it should so I'm simply going to
introduce a basic statement to respond to Mr. Czifra et al, and cover it
further in another later letter.

The reason that discrimination exists on the basis of sex is both a result
of real human nature--including real physical differences, and our own
self-imposed, ideals, preferences and prejudices--collectively as well as
individually.

The best physical structures for short bursts of strength and agility as
demanded in many sports--which themselves were mostly invented by males on
the basis of their own understanding of themselves--are not what is best for
childbearing.  The best structures for streamlined, aerodynamically
efficient running, are again, not the best for childbearing.  Thus, because
all women are anthropologically created to bear children, even the best
female athletes who have what are for females truly unique, somewhat
aberrant physical builds, will be a tiny minority of the total female
population--and will probably never have the ultimate in these qualities
that a high-quality male will.  Now combine this problem with the desire of
audiences to pay most attention to the best of the total species--male and
female.  What happens?

It is understood then, that most females are simply not equal to most males
in sports that were originally created for males.  However, a dangerous side
effect of this, is that the idea that females are simply weaker and less
athletic than males has often been extended to sports that are less
demanding on the uniquely or predominantly male characteristics, and in
which males and females can compete equally together.  There's no rational
differentiation.

Finally, what is worst of all, is the idea that unique aspects of physical
strength alone are justification to establish the superiority of one sex in
nearly all aspects of life.  Much of what is wrong politically,
economically, socially, etc. boils down to simply--"I can _make_ you do what
I want, because I'm generally physically stronger, and sooner or later I
will have an opportunity to be close to you to be able to exert such force."

"Uugh, me big, strong, caveman with big arms and legs, lots of weight and
carry bigger club.  You no do what I say, I knock you silly.  End of all
argument.  Because I can do this to you, your words just noise, mean
nothing.  Don't have to listen."

If as a human species together, we truly hold as an ideal that evolution for
the better means greater rationality, benevolence and respect for all
aspects of human beings equally--according to the equality of needs these
things address, than that all-too-prevalent and unquestioned attitude is
sub-human, brutish and a lot less evolved--and in reality, is possibly a
good indicator of an inferior group.  Is it not?


This is actually a semi-serious treatment of the subject.  I'm also happily
married to a male who is 6'5", weight 230 lbs.--and am not the slightest
intimidated--as he will be the first to tell you.  It's long been an
embarrassment to him that among other things, I can paddle a canoe much more
strongly and literally do circles around him.  This, you see indicates
superior upper body strength--from me.  ;-)

Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker

3273 B Rocky Water Lane
San Jose, CA, USA  95148
tel. & fax: 408-223-6102
e-mail: 








AE0M, Tony Becker -  - Silicon Valley, U.S.A.

I am just so happy we are at this stage.Finaley a worhtwhile subject.It is
refreshing and educational.
I have onley one question?How did our parents cope with the upringing there
children?Yes I know parents always want something better for there children.
But somewhere there should be a border.
We allways expect the governement to find a solution,but this is our monney.
We worked for it and as a senior I brought up my kid with both of us working.
It is true that I helped my wife in a small way maybe,and I proudley can say
that my Son is well educated and well wersed in his life.
Feminism is a 2 pronged sword.I was brought up in the old fashoined way,and
I try to be polite to the "weaker sex".Sometimes I receive a stare and then
I aske myself what did I do wrong?
Andy

To clarify Hugh's instructions: the HIX digests of the HUNGARY list
are being posted to the Usenet group soc.culture.magyar as well, which
has better propagation (ie. is available at more sites) than
bit.listserv.hungary.

--
 Zoli , keeper of <http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/>;
 <'finger '>
 NOTE: spamsters and bulk emailers see 'X-Policy*:' in the
header for the charges to be imposed for net abuse!

>his comments about the "girls" who should leave this list and go elsewhere,
 I did not tell the girls to leave. Not et all. I was talking about
 the subject.

>precisely to the Szalon, a list which by right-wing circles is considered a
 I have never subscribed the Szalon, I do not know its profile,
 but talk about feminism - I was told - belongs to it.

>insensitivity. Unless, of
 I am not insensitive! My opinion was that only : this subject belongs
 to elsewhere. If you feel safe in Hungary to talk about this, do it.

>of his two degrees may I ask: how is it possible for a man of his education
>to be so ignorant?
  Watch the movie MASK. You may see other than the naked reality.

                         Dr. Dr. K.S.

 wrote:



>Please, visit my new hungarian homepage and add more links !
>Let me know if you have any idea to make it more interesting.
>Thanks !


I'm really sorry, but the URL I gave you was incorrect.
Please note that the correct URL is :
http://www.cyberg8t.com/tools/kinga.html

Thanks for putting up with my bad typing.
>Kinga
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

>http://www.cyberg8t.com/tools/kinga.html
>"Nem eleg sikeresnek lenni;
> masoknak is kudarcot kell vallani."


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

http://www.cyberg8t.com/kinga.html
"Nem eleg sikeresnek lenni;
 masoknak is kudarcot kell vallani."

Well, I'm still catching up on all the postings on the various subjects.
Missed this one earlier among others because I didn't realize how many
screens of postings I had actually received.  Oops!

Also realized that in my introductor statement I forgot to mention I've had
a few business courses and  personal "tutoring" in economics by a couple of
pretty good economists.  I was personally acquainted with, and provided
materials for his public television show to, the late Walter Heller, if
anyone here knows who that is, since he died about 8 years ago.

Ok, enough triviality, now for the thought for discussion--and be sure to
catch the "smiley" at the end of this all.

A semi-planned economy is possible, but not a detail planned one.  The
semi-planned economy simply takes into account well-established basic needs
that always have to be addressed for simple survival, and for realistically
anticipated growth, or other changes in the human population.  It deals with
macroissues, such as simply the general, macro-means of providing enough
housing, food, clothing, transportation and medical care, for a population
that is either aging, growing, whatever.  Like any other good program, there
has to be benchmarks for monitoring and evaluation, both in time and in
means terms.

The semi-planned economy of this nature is based on Maslow's Law of Needs,
depicted usually as a "needs pyramid."  The management of the semi-planned
economy is based upon the standards common to both the best studies of
actual, successful business and nonprofit organizational management.  That
is every program has the following from "top to bottom:" (all levels are to
be "achievable realistic") goals; objectives within the goals;  strategies
for achievement; tactics within the strategies; a timetable for both every
objective and the goals; and finally built-in review and evaluation both at
set intervals along the progress of all the objectives and the overall goal.
The reviews and evaluations must allow corrections to the objectives or even
complete scrapping--rather like evaluations of projects within a business.
It is a waste of resources to continue doing something that has increasing
evidence of potential failure, or can be done in another way more effectively.

Thus for a planned economy to be successful, it must be flexible, and only
deal with real needs, and reasonable certainties and must be aware of
changes in both.  It cannot locked in concrete from day one, or be bent to
political ideology that while it tries to address needs, has not thoroughly
and professionally studied them, and all the possible solutions based upon
real historical precedents--at all levels.

Most planned economies have tried to do too much, and have either been set
in concrete from day one or somehow become ossified along the way.
Considering the qualities of human nature--and it is human beings that
create these plans, etc., it is probably safer and smarter to do less of
this than more, to allow the greatest possible freedom and amount of time to
correct the numerous, inevitable, equally individual, human errors of
observation and judgement.

Oh my goodness, brothers and sisters! I really need to start reading some
more items besides books on business, history, etc..  I'm beginning to write
more and more like some ivory tower intellectual, or is it Jane Austen.
Yikes!!!  I think I'll revisit my Mark Twain or Louisa May Alcott for awhile
 while I recuperate from the knee problems.  (See, I'm not always an
"intellectual,"--I have a right knee--semi-the total of two--that seems to
be a close relative of that of Joe Namath--and it didn't get that way by
reading and writing...)  ;-)


Respectfully and semi-seriously in all this,


Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker

3273 B Rocky Water Lane
San Jose, CA, USA 95148
tel. & fax: 408-223-6102
e-mail: 

P.S. There's a very good part of Murphy's Law that reflects some real
observations.  It goes something like, "the effectiveness and success of any
program, especially in government, is in inverse proportion to the quantity
of resources and planning dedicated to it."  In other word, the larger-and
more detailed--the project, the less likely it will be successful.

Of course whatever social scientist came up with this one was not the first
good observer.  An earlier, more homespun version is simply, "too many cooks
spoil the broth."

According to the anthropologists, human beings haven't changed much in at
least 40,000 years...



AE0M, Tony Becker -  - Silicon Valley, U.S.A.

>On 15 Jan 1996 01:20:02 -0500,  (GemFP) wrote:
>
>>I, too am doing genealogy research on family members from Hungary
>>(surnames ADLER and BOGNER), as well as a town called L. St. Ivan which
>>existed in the 1880s.  Someone E-mailed me with the following information
>>on that town which apparently no longer exists:
>>
>>>There are/were several Szentivan; one was in Lipto' megye (county), hence
>>>the `L.' could mean "Lipto' Szentiva'n" . Now Liptovsky' in the Slovak
>>>Republic.
>>
>>I looked up this in my Atlas (which is outdated - 1989) and couldn't find
>>Liptovsky on the map (I also tried using the Index but found that about 40
>>pages were missing (including all the "L's")!!!
>>
>>Does anybody have any knowledge of where this town or province might havev
>>been or where the Slovak Republic is?  Any major cities near Liptovsky
>>would be helpful!
>>
>>Thanks to all!
>>
>>Lynn Fox-Perez
>>
>>
>>--       ...in the pursuit of knowledge
>
>The Slovak Republic is a new country since the split-up in ?1990 of
>Thecho/SLOVAKIA.
>The Slovak Republic is situated between Poland and Hungary.
>Slovakia was before 1919/1920 part of Hungary.
>
>I think Lipto ..etcetera is in the north of Slovakia. Near or in the
>Tatra Mountains:    High Tatra or Low Tatra.
>To look it upyou have to use a Atlas printed before 1919/ 1920
>
>
>Greetings from Amsterdam in the Netherlands,
>
>Louis S. Madarasz
>

>
>
>
>
>
>
>Greetings from Amsterdam in the Netrherlands,
>
>Louis S. Madarasz
>

>
>There is a series of maps put out by a company in Hungary covering
al of the lost territories.  The Slovakia map is out, I have seen it,
it lists every town with the Hungarian and SLovak name.  I f I find
a better reference I will tell you.  Check out the Slovak Document
Store on the net, it is great and may help.

>Hi,
>
>I have a hungarian name.
>
>My family left Hungary about 1805 - 1810
>They lived near the Tatra Moutains
>Townname in hungarian:    Strba    / perhaps Csorba
>(Now Slovakia, but before 1919/1920 Hungarian Territory
>
>Who knows something about Genealogy in Hungary
>/Slovakia (former Hungarian Territory.)
>
>Or something about my name: Madarasz
>
>Or about the town Strba
>
>
>Newsgroups: bit.listserv.hungary
>Subject: Who knows something about Genealogy in Hungary /Slovakia
>(former Hung.) about my name: Madarasz
>Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 05:35:39 GMT
>X-Attachment:
>
>Hi,
>
>I have a hungarian name.
>
>My family left Hungary about 1805 - 1810
>
>They lived near the Tatra Moutains
>Townname in hungarian:    Strba    / perhaps Csorba
>(Now Slovakia, but before 1919/1920 Hungarian Territory)
>
>Who knows something about Genealogy in Hungary
>/Slovakia (former Hungarian Territory.)
>
>-Or something about my name: Madarasz
>What does it mean?
>Are there many people with this name?
>
>-Or about the town Strba
>
>
>Greetings from Amsterdam,
>
>Louis S. Madarasz
>

>
>I know something about geneology in Hungary. My e-mail is 
The root of your name, madar, means bird, not sure of the ending, probably
means something like "full of birds" or "rich in birds"

At 11:27 AM 1/24/96 -0500, Eva Balogh wrote:

>Jim, I don't think that we will see eye to eye on this subject.
>
>>My original note was not intended to be a personal attack.  I have not=20
>>found your writings, =C9va, at all bitchy (thus far).
>
>I have objections to the word "bitchy" in the first place, and I must say I
>am surprised that you think the way you do.=20

I'm not!  It's all part of Jim's world view. =20

Eva, since you share most of his views, I'm surprised that you're surprised.
And if you dig long enough you'll find yourself surprised over and over
again.  But then I only have outdated, utopian, and silly ideas to offer.

Joe Szalai

At 08:07 AM 1/24/96 -0500, Johanne L. Tournier wrote:

>It appears to me that you, who seem to have a
>polemical bent, have attempted to meet my argument with a rather personal
>attack, rather than dealing with the issues I raised head on.

You're right.  I do have a polemical bent.  As for my comments, I can see
why you might have seen them as a personal attack.  You'll just have to
accept my word that all I was trying to do was to engage you in a
discussion.  I wanted you to expound on your view of feminism.

>A couple of points - obviously neither you nor the person who coined the
>term "queen bee syndrome" are beekeepers.

No argument there.  I know next to nothing abour apiary.  When I get stung,
it's usually verbally, and often on this list. ;-)

>It is interesting that you think I would say that I had no trouble in being
>a woman, like Maggie Thatcher.  I am not a Maggie Thatcher, although I
>admire her tremendously for her gumption and willingness to be forthright,
>a rare commodity in politicians.

Hitler had it too.  I see this as an all too common, yet dangerous argument.
Right wing politicians are having a field day dismantling social safety nets
that were developed during this century.  And they're getting away with it
because many people hold gumption and forthrightness to be more important
than social programmes.

>That doesn't mean that I don't want most of the things feminists
>want, indeed I take them for granted.

And so you should.  It's a shame that so many other have to struggle for them.

>I also think it is futile to blame "the system" for problems that I have
>had - it is far better to realize that there are some things we cannot
>change and get on with life.

I have no problem with people getting on with life.  However, I think that
on these issues you've given up too easily.  I don't intend to sound too
critical here. On a personal note I can tell you that I live my life to the
fullest.  I'm a positive, outgoing, fun loving person but that dosen't stop
me caring and trying to bring positive changes to people whose lives are
lacking.

>Also I experienced as many problems from women in positions of power when I
>was in the service as I ever did from men, even though many of the men I
>worked with held typical male chauvinist views.

I heard this said often.  Women who climb the ladder of success frequently
burn the ladder after them.

>I can't speak for other women, but I have been fortunate to find a husband
>who is extremely supportive of me and is very unthreatened by my success.
>This liberated attitude seems to be more common among Canadian men than
>among the average American male (and the average Hungarian?).

I tend to agree.  The average Hungarian male is rather low on the list of
'liberated attitudes'.

>I would say that there are
>things the government can do to facilitate child-rearing, such as providing
>opportunities for both parents to take parental leave. A real problem,
>though is the impact on the employer. I as a sole professional cannot
>afford to pay my secretary to take six months maternity leave and pay to
>employ another secretary at the same time, even though I might personally
>wish to do it.

There is a concept, although it seems to be out of fashion these days, that
might enable you to treat your secretary the way you say you would like to.
It's called 'fair and progressive taxation'.

>I do think a discussion of feminist ideas is relevant to a general forum on
>Hungary, because Hungary is dealing with the same problems in society that
>we are dealing with here in North America.  And, even though these issues
>may be boring to some people, it is important that they should be >discussed.

The number of responses to this issue seems to indicate that a lot of people
do not find this issue boring.

>I hate to say it, but what about all this discussion about sports?  Isn't
>there a forum where all the guys should go who want to discuss sports?

Yes there is such a forum.  Unfortunately, for a lot of men that forum is
called 'the world'.  They just love to play with, or watch other guys play
with, balls.

Joe Szalai

At 11:27 AM 1/23/96 -0500, W. BATKAY wrote:

>As I understand it, about once a month there is a huge rally/"service" held
>in one of the big sports stadiums in Bp, with about 5,000 attendees.  The
>central part of the service seems to be vigorous hymn-singing and lengthy
>preaching, with much evidence of people being "touched" by the spirit
>--speaking in tongues, uncontrolled shaking of the body, and lengthy fits
>of fainting.  (I observed serveral instances of the latter in Debrecen,
>with no hint of phoniness about them.)

>Any other perspectives?

Pass the Cool Aid, Jim!

(My comment, for those of you who don't remember, is a reference to Jim
Jones and the tragic end of his cult in Guyana, where most members drank
poisioned Cool Aid in a mass suicide.)

Just found this thread.  Hmmm, seems to me we need a lot better education in
real world history in a lot of nations, and a little less nationalistic
emphasis on history education, not just in the U.S.

Indonesia and Mexico as capitalist nations???  Have you discussed this with
either the PRI, or Mr. Suharto?  That's not what they claim to have based
their economies--largely still operating, accordingly, on.  Remember the
Mexican revolution of 1910--against the U.S. friendly dictator, Porfirio
Diaz?  The revolutionaries won, and they killed a whole bunch of landowners
and factory owners along the way.  They then nationalized virtually every
major industry.  The oil industry--PEMEX, you may remember still hasn't been
divvied up and sold to several private companies, has it?  Ditto most of the
mines for metals and non-metals alike.  Sure, Carranza hijacked the
revolution and managed to preserve a certain amount of the old elite.  So
did some countries in East Europe, at least at first.  So did mainland
China. The new large elite in Mexico now, is both descendants of
revolutionaries and old elites, just like it is in China, and elswhere under
the generally-accepted-as-socialist category.

In Indonesia the government, there, is also involved in nearly every
transaction in the country.  Sure, they let in private companies from places
like Japan, and the U.S., but _it is the Indonesian government_ that does
the "letting in" and sets all the rules and gets half the profits or so.
It's not company to company transactions, but largely government to private
foreign company.  They have a lot of nationalized resources, too.  Also,
doesn't anyone in this list remember that the current government of
Indonesia --and the elite--are also primarily revolutionaries who threw out
both the Dutch colonials and the quisling local survivors of the massacred
(by the Dutch) old aristocracy?  Doesn't anyone remember what "good buddies"
to Russia this current government has been all through the '60's, 70's, and
well into the 80's because the U.S. leaders at that time, had foolishly
supported the Dutch during and at the end of World War II (as they did the
French in Indochina, and English in India, etc.).

Please folks, let's have a rational look at real history and the definitions
and generally accepted connotations of capitalism and socialism in the
context of real differences.  First let us all remember they do not exist in
vacuums but in the context of societies.  We need to sort out what is really
"capitalism" and what is instead a social milieu that can exist with varying
forms of economic ideology and practice.

Capitalism in the purest sense is simply a structure based upon money,
capital, or the concern with it.  Capital is simply money, no more, no less.
It's just a tool, not good or evil in itself, just a tool.  It can be used
for good or evil, but that is wholly dependent upon the nature and values of
the man--or men--who use it.

The connotative differences of "capitalism" and "socialism" are that
capitalism is representative of a free economy answerable only to supposedly
abstract, physical laws of market and supply, and "socialism" is a
controlled economy answerable only to needs.

First of all, to anyone who has actually engaged in the business of
producing and delivering a product or service, there is an obvious overlap.
The market is at least partly needs.  It is also partly wants.  ("We don't
really _need_ this, but we'd _like_ it because we think it will somehow make
our lives better, or easier.")

The real difference are in the mechanisms of adressing the needs.  Are they
all controlled by the government or not?  Is the whole of society and the
economy planned by one group at the top to be the way it is, or is it not?

I've been in both Mexico and Indonesia, and studied a whole lot of other
countries besides these.  There is nothing of the economic life of the
masses of people in both these countries that is not set to be as it is by
the elites--just as completely as it used to be done by the Soviets in
Russia.  There is not one penny of "capital" that is not disbursed by a
single, well-connected top group into exactly what and where it wants that
penny to go.  In Mexico, the elite maintains an export economy and dictates
the crops, and other products.  It chooses not to invest in high quality
products--not even to supply basic needs--for domestic consumption.  There
is no real "housing industry" in Mexico.  There is no dedication of
government funds at any level, through any mechanism for basic
infrastructure such as clean water, sewage treatment, streets, electricity,
etc., etc..  The masses of people are very deliberately maintained by this
elite in a physically weakened, socially, educationally and politically
divided state for easier control as cheap labor both as domestic servants to
the elite--and as controlled cheap labor for foreigners who then pay the
elites nice fat "recruiting and managing" fees.

Indonesia is a bit better, but there is still an oppressive, more privileged
elite, there too, as existed in all of the so-called communist/socialist
countries of East Europe.  How many ordinary citizens had "dachaus" like the
party bosses, hmmm???  How many ordinary citizens ended up with as much
money to buy into the newly privatized companies in comparison with the
communist party member factory managers, etc.??


There is one problem in all the cases.  Sure there were revolutions, and the
old elites deserved to have them happen, but no one really changed the
culture--the values and education of the people, the behaviors that led to
the revolution.  The new leaders all said they wanted something different,
but didn't really learn--and practice anything different in the majority of
the basic or most important attitudes and behaviors that constituted the
national oppression.  All that happened was one elite that practiced abuses
was changed for another practicing exactly the same abuses, just wearing a
different label.  Most fundamentally of all, all the past and present elites
believed and still believe that people can and ought to be divided into at
least two unequal groups, of superior and inferior.  It doesn't matter what
is called superior; whether it is former oppressed factory workers, landless
farmers, or educated people who didn't inherit wealth, or whatever.  The
problem is that a group is set up as superior--deserving of greater power
and privileges above another for abstract general reasons, mostly on the
basis of being someone else's past victim, and not individual merit on the
basis of contributions to the greater real good of humanity.

The United States is merely more of a capitalistic nation than some, but is
already well on the way to becoming just another oligarchic planned economy
state with two distinct classes of people--superior and inferior.  There is
a growing awareness of this situation and growing efforts to change this.  A
similar situation that could have led to revolution in the 1930's was
coopted and mitigated by some "elite"-background leaders who were willing to
share more wealth and power, while still maintaining more for themselves.
It worked.  People generally don't mind rich and poor (the rich give them a
dream, an image, to strive for) so long as the differences aren't too great,
and there are a fair amount of opportunities for enterprising and diligent
people to also become rich, someday.  It's when the differences in wealth
and power get--or _appear_ too great at the same time that the opportunities
for the less well-off get or _are believed to be_ fewer, that the problems
really develop...

Sincerely and respectfully,


Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker

3273 B Rocky Water Lane
San Jose, CA, USA  95148
tel. & fax: 408-223-6102
e-mail: 

















N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

 wrote:

>>Please, visit my new hungarian homepage and add more links !
>>Let me know if you have any idea to make it more interesting.
>>Thanks !
>
>
>I'm really sorry, but the URL I gave you was incorrect.
>Please note that the correct URL is :
>http://www.cyberg8t.com/tools/kinga.html
>
>Thanks for putting up with my bad typing.
>>Kinga
>>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

>>http://www.cyberg8t.com/tools/kinga.html
>>"Nem eleg sikeresnek lenni;
>> masoknak is kudarcot kell vallani."

Thanks.  It looks like a cool site and I've already bookmarked it.
However, your link to "soc.culture.magyar" is in such a pale, pale blue,
that it is almost impossible to read.  Do people with poor eye sight a
favour and make the colour more vibrant.  Thanks again.

Joe Szalai

Dear Louis:

At 05:46 AM 1/24/96 GMT, you wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I have a hungarian name.
>
>My family left Hungary about 1805 - 1810
>They lived near the Tatra Moutains
>Townname in hungarian:    Strba    / perhaps Csorba
>(Now Slovakia, but before 1919/1920 Hungarian Territory
>
>Who knows something about Genealogy in Hungary
>/Slovakia (former Hungarian Territory.)
>
>Or something about my name: Madarasz
>
>Or about the town Strba
>
>
>

>
>Greetings from Amsterdam,
>
>Louis S. Madarasz
>
>

Probably the best person to answer some, if not all, your questions is
probably a cousin of yours, Pal Madarasz, PhD linguistics and history, of
Monterey, California, USA.  I don't have his telephone number right at my
fingertips (we're changing databases soon, and I haven't entered all my old
cards in the current one because my husband had been promising this change
for some time and we weren't sure how many errors we'd have in the transfer
that would then require considerable re-entry.), however, someone else in
this list probably does, especially those members who live in Northern
California.  Maybe send a message directed at these folks mentioning Pal by
name and background.

Also he is listed in the telephone directory for the Monterey area and can
be found using AT&T/Pacific Bell directory assistance.  The area code for
Monterey is 408.  The information number for that area is 408-555-1212 and
then you tell the answering operator you are looking for assistance for
Monterey, California and you would like the telephone number of Paul
Madarasz--and you will probably need to spell his surname for the operator
who is likely not to be a Hungarian American.

The Hungarian Lobby list also recently had a posting telling about a
genealogy company located in Budapest, now, that does research on families
that lived all over the former Austria-Hungary, in Hungary and all countries
that have former pieces.

The message suggested writing or calling:

George Eotvos
FAMILY TREE
H-1055 Budapest
Falk Miksa utca 8.
HUNGARY
tel./fax: (36-1) 131-3569

I hope some of this helps.

Respectfully and sincerely,


Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker

3273 B Rocky Water Lane
San Jose, CA, USA  95148
tel. & fax: 408-223-6102 (large area code; San Jose is more than 60 miles
from Monterey, and it is actually "long distance" by telephone)

e-mail: 

N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Sziasztok,

Hey, (assuming Celia Becker wrote this) is this an attack on me?? I was just
adding a dimension to the story. I think it's pretty silly to see a fat,
bloated Puskas Ocsi play a reunion match. The only thing benefical to the
famous women of Hungarian sport is that they are not made to jump in that pool
once again, or hit that tennis ball, and race another race just to made a
spectacle of, but still they should be able to milk it just as much as the
fellas. It's all bullshit none the less. What do I know?? Am I man, right??

Udv.,
Czifra Jancsi

Egy regi baratomat keresem, a neve MESTER GEZA. Pecsett lakott mielott
Munchenbe "kultozott", 1979 korul, most olyan 43 ev korul lehet.

Pecsett a HA3KMK amator radio allomas tagja volt es gondolom hogy
azota mar Nemetorszagban is reszt vesz az amatorkodesben.

Ha valaki ismeri vagy van otlete hogy hol keressem, netalan meg tudna
nezni a Muncheni telefon konyvet a MESTER-ek alatt es el tudna kuldeni
a telefon szamokat, nagyon orulnek.

Elore is koszonom.

                feri

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Ference Kish                   


                We never grow up, only our toys get bigger

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hans,

> Sriasi  sz|letisnapi  euli  hasbro  jatikokkal is vr|lj az zjboli
talalkozasnak

means:

Giant birthday celebration with "Hasbro" games, and be happy for the reunion.
Martha

Martha S. Bihari
e-mail: 

On Tue, 23 Jan 1996, Stowewrite wrote:

> The
> current fetish for uncritical worship of the free market in the U.S. and
> Western Europe will get much-needed critical reappraisal from the man and
> woman on the street once they are reminded of its excesses. No one in
> their right mind, however, will ever again trust their government, economy
> or society to hack university Marxism.


Right on!

Let's hope the hell not!

I lived for twenty-five years in a hot-bed of university parlor
Marxism, multi-cultural revolutionary chic, and radical bad faith.  Not
in Central Europe, of course, but in a prestigious American college.
No political thought can be more insulated and hermetic than that,
or less concerned with the lives of ordinary citizens.

Working in Hungary was a great relief: people were worked up about real
problems!

But then I discovered that Hungarian students and faculty have their
own strange (to me) hermetically sealed illusions.  See the recent
posting about the Faith Church in Debrecen.  Consider the vast following
for Pap Gabor.

By the way, what's happening with Pap Gabor these days?

Richard Alexander.

Louis S. Madarasz,

> >I know something about geneology in Hungary. My e-mail is
 
> The root of your name, madar, means bird, not sure of the ending, probably
> means something like "full of birds" or "rich in birds"
>

The name, Madarasz means fowler, or bird-catcher.

Martha S. Bihari
e-mail: 

At 11:27 AM 1/24/96 -0500, Eva Balogh wrote:

>Joe Szalai objects to my using the word "we" in "we know your political
>views." Fine, I can certainly change it to "I know your political views."

It's presumptuous to use "we".

>Mind you, I have been on this list for two years, and as far as I know
>there have been only two ardent believers in utopistic socialism: you and
>Eva Durant. Everybody else thought that Marx's utopia is nothing more than
>a utopia.

So?  Today people believe this, and tomorrow, they'll believe that.  If
you've read Cecilia Fabos-Becker's posts today you might have noticed that
she worked for McGoverns campaign, and today she is an active member of the
Republican party.  Were her views correct then and wrong today, or vice
versa?  Having a lot of people believing the same thing that you do does not
make it right or correct.

It's rather odd but if I ever thought that my views or ideas represented the
mainstream I would feel that I've betrayed myself.  It would be like
forfeiting your voice.  Sorry if my 'herd instincts' are less than what you
feel comfortable with.

Joe Szalai

At 11:51 PM 1/24/96 -0500, Richard Alexander wrote:

>I lived for twenty-five years in a hot-bed of university parlor
>Marxism, multi-cultural revolutionary chic, and radical bad faith.  Not
>in Central Europe, of course, but in a prestigious American college.
>No political thought can be more insulated and hermetic than that,
>or less concerned with the lives of ordinary citizens.

And how, if I may ask, have YOU shown concern for the lives of ordinary
citizens.  I bet you haven't done tittle for anyone but yourself.

>Working in Hungary was a great relief: people were worked up about real
>problems!

What a thrill it must have been for you!  And, where oh where, did you learn
to patronize so shamelessly?

>But then I discovered that Hungarian students and faculty have their
>own strange (to me) hermetically sealed illusions.  See the recent
>posting about the Faith Church in Debrecen.  Consider the vast following
>for Pap Gabor.

You seem to have a few hermetically sealed illusions of your own.

Joe Szalai

On Fri, 19 Jan 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:

> James Doepp writes:
>=20
> >I guess they just respond to ugliness with more ugliness...  Nothing
> >wrong with intelligent and educated women, but liberated and outspoken i=
s
> >too often an excuse for bitchy.
> >
> I hate to tell you Jim, you are wrong. I was thinking specifically of tho=
se
> wonderful "gentlemen" on the Hungarian-language *Forum*. Believe me I nev=
er
> write anything which could be construed as bitchy. Before you make any
> further pronouncements on the subject, read a few days' worth of Forum--Y=
ou
> will know what I mean.
>=20
> Eva Balogh
>=20

My original note was not intended to be a personal attack.  I have not=20
found your writings, =C9va, at all bitchy (thus far).  I must have missed t=
he beginning of the=20
discussion, since I had no idea it had to do with the Forum.  My=20
"pronouncements" were with regard to my experience in general, and I=20
still stand by them.  As they say, generalisations are always suspect.

Jim.


/ / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / /

James D. Doepp
University of Miskolc (Hungary)
Department of Economic Theory


"...if pleasure and liking, pain and dislike, are formed in the=20
soul on right lines before the age of understanding is reached,=20
and when that age is attained, these feelings are in concord with=20
understanding, thanks to early discipline in appropriate habits -=20
this concord, regarded as a whole, is virtue.  But if you consider
one factor in it, the rightly disciplined state of pleasures and=20
pains whereby man, from his first beginnings on, will abhor what=20
he should abhor and relish what he should relish - if you isolate=20
this factor and call it education, you will be giving it its true name."

Plato, Laws II

/ / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / /

On Sat, 20 Jan 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:

>=20
> Sometimes the anti-woman attitude is more subtle. Both Eva Durant and mys=
elf
> were referred to by one well-meaning gentleman, I am sure, as "Evike," as=
 if
> we were little, stupid, five-year old kids. (By the way, it is difficult =
to
> imagine a "ven satrafa" whose name is Evike!)=20


I do think your feminism is getting the better of you, =C9va.  I have been=
=20
called Dzsimike or Dzimik=E9m by people of both sexes not infrequently.  I=
=20
know, I'm only (!) 30 and those who use the "bece" form are older.  But it =
is also=20
not uncommon to hear "Dani-b=E1csi" (who is 60) call "Laci-b=E1csi" (who is=
=20
about ten years older) as "Lacik=E1m".


Jim.

On Mon, 22 Jan 1996, ibokor wrote:

> it is true that the penetration of women into some male
> domains has been extremely slow,


I wouldn't touch that line with a ten foot pole!