It is only one word in Hungarian: SZERETLEK!

I don't know where you live, but here in Toronto we have Hungarian 
sections in many public libraries.  Also, there must be some Hungarian 
cultural centre, church, etc., where they can give some info., even a 
Hungarian delicatessen shop.  I don't recommend the Hungarian bible 
because it is archaic and difficult reading even for native Hungarians.  
I recommend from the classics:  Gardonyi, Jokai, Mikszath.  From the 
prewar literature: Zilahy, Harsanyi, Torok Rezso, Rejto Jeno.  From the 
communist era: Szabo Magda, Karinthy Ferenc, Deri Tibor.  I was in 
Budapest this spring and nobody could recommend me any new books.
Regards, Agnes

and ", fuled erjen bokaig" :-), which doesn't meant we may not say 
"Boldog szuletesnapot", too...

--
 Zoli , keeper of <http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/>;
 <'finger '> 
 NOTE: spamsters and bulk emailers see 'X-Policy*:' in the 
header for the charges to be imposed for net abuse!

On 29 Dec 1995, Agnes Heringer wrote:

> I know that I am a little late with this, but we don't say Happy Birthday 
> in Hungarian.  We say, Isten eltessen sokaig! (accent ague on first e on 
> eltessen and on a in sokaig) which means, May God give you a long life!
> 
> 
>

In article >, Nagy Peter > wrote:
>
>Nem ertem, hogyan lehet hegemoniara valo torekvesrol beszelni a HIX
>eseteben.  Most nem _csak_ a fenti szovegre utalok, hanem korabbi
>hozzaszolasokra is ez alatt a cim alatt, melyek szerint pfuj a diszno
>HIX Jozsi kiebrudalt nehany alakot a HIX-rol, pfuj ez hegemoniara valo
>torekves es ezzel bekoti masok szajat.

Engem speciel nem rugott ki, csupan megfenyegetett ezzel, "not in so
many words", of course.  Pusztan azert, mert szova tettem, hogy
gyakorlatban alkalmazott modszerei nem egeszen fedik azokat, amiket
hirdet.  Ezt nyilvan o is tudja, s ezert nem turi a HIX kezelesenek
nyilvanos megbeszeleset az altala kezelt ujsagokban.
Talan nem kell mondanom, mire emlekeztet ez a "heavy handed" stilus.
>
>es aki felolem - Gotthard Saghi-Szabo szavaival - egy "oregedo,
>betokosodott, kommunista evek alatt felnott, arrogans es rovidlato
>ember" is lehet, adott esetben birtokol tobb elektronikus ujsagot,

Hat oregnek eppen nem mondhato, az biztos.  Oregedonek esetleg, de ki
nem az? ;-)

>amelyekhez o szerezte meg a szukseges eroforrasokat.  Ezek az _o_
>ujsagjai, nem a magyar nemzetei, nem az internet kozossegei, nem az
>enyeim es nem a tieitek.  Hozzaszolni nem kotelezo, jaratni nem
>kotelezo, rola tudomast venni nem kotelezo.  Nincs demokracia, nem is
>igerte meg senki.  Azt rug ki, akit akar, olyan indokkal, amilyennel
>neki jol esik.  Az ovei mellett mindazonaltal annyi es olyan ujsag fut,

Ebben -- mondjuk -- igazad van, ami persze nem veszi el masok jogat a
Jozsi kritizalasatol. 

>ilyenek a szabalyok.  Az internet pedig jo nagy,
>elferunk benne.

Ez is igaz elvileg.  Gyakorlatilag van egy olyasmi, hogy inercia, ami
miatt a regi, megszokott ujsagok olvasoit nehez rabirni ujabb, s meg
esetleg jobb ujsagok partolasara sem.  Lasd odahaza a Nepszabadsag
hegemoniajat.

A problema, mint az iment Evanak irt valaszomban irtam, kulonben sem az,
hogy Jozsinak szinte hegemoniaja van az Internetes magyar ujsagokban,
hanem az, hogy az eredetileg semleges Jozsibol egy ugyancsak partos
Jozsi lett, gondolom opportunizmusbol.

Pannon J.

>Warning: this message is cross-posted so please don't
>overload the other groups posting followups and send
>me E-mail instead (specify the language you are
>translating to ! ;-)

>Thank you very much.

Didn't anyone read the fucking message!
>Andrea.

Miguel Oliveira

Kedves Jozsi!

Ugy el voltam foglalva az en sajat kis ugyemmel, hogy elfelejtettem
valaszolni levelenek elso reszere:

>Amiota a Jozsi viszont
>egyertelmuen elkotelezte (eladta!) magat a szadesz vonalnak, azota csak
>ugy tudok gondolni az egesz mukodesere, mint amit itt "bait and switch"
>taktikanak hivnak.  Magyarul a "sunyisag" sem rossz kifejezes erre.

Hat ha szegeny Hollosi Jozsi eladta magat az SZDSZ-nek, akkor az SZDSZ
igen rossz befektetest csinalt, hiszen a Forum legtobb aktiv tagja szive
melyebol utalja az SZDSZ-t es velemenyuket nem rejtik veka ala. Egyik oka
az ellenem iranyulo gyuloletnek eppen az, hogy en voltam az egyetlen a
Forumon, aki kiallt a marciusi gazdasagi megszoritasok--az ugynevezett
Bokros-csomag--mellett, mivel mas kiutat nem lattam a magyar gazdasag
bajaira. Ebbol ok azt a konzekvenciat vontak le, hogy en--egyik illusztris
magyar gentlemant idezve--az SZDSZ "fizetett berence" vagyok. De meg azok
is, akik azert ilyen messze nem mennek el, biztosak abban, hogy
politikailag en baloldali liberalis vagyok. Ahanyszor ezt elmeselem
amerikai barataimnak, azok csak hahotaznak, ugyanis eddig ok azt
gondoltak, hogy en--kulonosen gazdasagi kerdesekben--meglehetosen
konzervativ vagyok. Dehat "liberalizmus" Magyarorszagon valami egeszen
mast jelent, mint amit az ember a szotarban talal. Egyik interneti ismeros
szerint, a Magyar Radion megkerdeztek egy csomo embert, hogy mit is jelent
az a szo, hogy liberalizmus. Voltak akik szerint, liberalizmus egy angol
gyarmat; de volt egy csomo olyan valasz is, hogy liberalizmus
"hazaarulast" jelent. (A fentemlitett illusztris gentleman szerint en is
"hazaarulo" vagyok, es mar nevem rajta is van az o fekete listajan es
gondolom egy szep napon majd eloveszi azt a bizonyos dossziet. . . .) Es
miert hazaarulast? Mivel szerintuk az SZDSZ liberalis es az SZDSZ
hazaarulo. Hat idejutottunk! Es a legutobbi felmeres szerint Torgyan
kisgazdai vezetnek 35%-al! A magyar nepnek mindig sikerult elpasszolnia
lehetosegeit.

Balogh Eva

Tammy Lamb ) wrote:
: If you haven't already checked out our homepage, why not do it now?
: http://home.ptd.net/~tamlamb/gene.htm

When you get around to covering counties in Texas, let me know.....

And, if you haven't already checked out my homepage, why not do it now?

--
Abel M. Hernandez                      |  If you're into Tejano Music
                     |   point your Web browser to:
Home of the original Tejano Home Page  |        La Onda Network
Manny Music, EMI Latin, Sony Discos    |  http://www.OndaNet.com:1995/

Kedves Balogh Eva,
sajnos el van tajolva (megint), hiszen Hollosinak sem az oka sem 
pedig urugye nem azt volt a Forum cenzurazasara, hogy ott valaki
"becsuletsertest" kovetett volna el. Ha az lett volna, mar regesreg
kitiltotta volna Magat, kedves Balogh Eva, pl. amikor Dr. Endrey-t
szenilisnek nevezte, nem?

Hollosi *urugye* az volt a "moderalatlan"-nak nevezett Forum
cenzurazasara, hogy valahol, valaki atmasolt a "Hirmondo"-bol
par bekezdest. Nos, urugynek ez jo (urugynek barmi jo), csakhogy
pl. eppen ezt a "soc.culture.magyar" listat Hollosi NAPONTA masolja
a sajat HIX fejlece ala, mintha az ove volna -- megsem esik barki
abba a hibaba, hogy ilyen altalanos Internet gyakorlat miatt 
Hollosit "eltiltsa" barmitol.

Erdekesnek talalom azonban, hogy Maga "becsuletsertesrol" szajkozik
(ami egyaltalan nem szerepelt a cenzura "indoklasaban"), masok
(Maga is) az "etikatlan masolas urugyet" pengetik minduntalan
(amit Hollosi NAPONTA gyakorol pl. a Maga leveleivel is) -- mig
*senki* nem beszel, illetve mindenki melyen hallgat a cenzurazas
valodi *okairol*.

Szucs Andras (megirta a Nemzetbe) eppen *harmadszor* akarta bekuldeni
Szatmari konyvenek az SZDSZ sajtohegemoniara valo torekveserol irt
sorait, s *EZT* akarta megakadalyozni Hollosi, hogy az SZDSZ
"kekeinek" sajtohegemoniajarol legyen nyilvanos vita a HIX-en.
(Ketli? Javaslok Maganak valamit! Masolja be a Forum-ba Szucs
Andras altal bekuldott de haromszor kicenzurazott anyagot - lassuk
hogy lesz-e nyilvanos vita errol a Forumban! [alabb mellekelem
Szucs Andras altal bekuldott anyagot])

A HIX-en Hollosi nem csinal semmi *mast* mind amit otthon a "kek"
SZDSZ-sajtohegemonia csinal -- barmilyen modszerrel, fair vagy
nem fair, egyszeruen meg kivanjak olni a Magyar Sajtoszabadsagot,
mielott az eletrevalo csecsemove cseperedhetne! Ha valoban 
a Magyar Sajtoszabadsag partolasat tartja fontosnak, vajon mi
fontosabb, hogy legyen legalabb egy *cenzurazatlan* magyar lista
az Interneten, vagy pedig hogy "szenilis" (stb) becsuletsertesek
ki legyenek irtva?

Udvozlettel 
Dr. Pellionisz Andras

[ime a HIX-altal visszaigazolt, de harmadszorra is kicenzurazott, ott
soha meg nem jelenheto cikk]

> =======================================================
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Szatmari 90-es joslasa bevalt ( 58 sor )
> Idopont: Thu Dec 21 16:31:47 EST 1995 FORUM #1846
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Vajon masok is megdobbentonek tartjak-e a Szatmari Jeno Istvan
"(Majdnem) halott ujsagiro nem hazudik" c. par honapja megjelent
konyveben talalhato, de eloszor mar 5 esztendeje (1990-ben meg-
jelentetett) "joslasok" szinte betu szerinti beigazolodasat? A
"Forum"-ban is mar jo evek ota szamos olyan, a perspektiva segit-
segevel elorelathato, "politologiai elorejelzes" volt talalhato,
melyeket az ido igazolt. Jo lenne tudni, hogy latjak a vita-
partnerek a trendek elore jelezhetosegenek a kerdeset.

Aki esetleg nem ismerne a konyvet, Szatmari idezi az eredetileg a
"Szabadsag, szo, szerkezet" cimu, (Magyar Vasarnap, 1990/9 szamban
megjelent) "politologiai elorejelzeset", melyben az alabbiakat irja:

"Az IMF diktatumait ismerve mar-mar azt kerdezem: miert jo nekunk,
hogy szovjet gyarmatbol a nemzetkozi penzvilag gyarmatava valjunk? Mi
valtozik ettol?  Lassuk csak: korabban volt legalabb egy viszonylagos
szocialis biztonsag.  (Mar, persze, ami penzt erre a koltsegvetes
sokat elnyelo lyukas nagy kalapjabol a szakszervezeti es
szocialis-egeszsegugyi lobbyk ki tudtak sirni es harcolni, es ami
ebbol a kisembernek azutan meg megmaradt, hogy a lobby volt vezerei
szep reszet egyszeruen zsebre vagtak, vagy sajat hobbijaikra
koltottek)

Igaz, volt e viszonylagos biztonsag melle egy kemeny "POFA BE!" is
azoknak, akik gondolkodni mertek.

Es mi van most? Egy eleddig nemigen ismert retteges a holnaptol, a
koltsegvetest vagy az IMF tavoli urai diktaljak, vagy csak csendben
rohoreszve turik, hogy rajuk hivatkozzanak a nep sarcoloi,
lefaragjak a szocialis, egeszsegugyi, lakas-, mezogazdasagi es mas
tamogatasokat, hozzajarulasokat. Es van melle egy "ugathatsz
barmirol" tipusu sajtoszabadsag.

De meddig? A papir, a nyomdak, a terjesztes arai a csillagos egekbe
szoktek. Szep lassan (vagy egyre gyorsabban) pusztulnak ki a magyar
sajtobol az onallo hangu kis lapok, es csak azok maradhatnak fenn,
amelyek ezt a kimeletlen harcot penzzel is birjak. A tobbi meg -
mars a sullyesztobe. Szebb esetben megjelenik nehany szaz peldanyban,
de a lakossag tomegeit csak az tudja manipulalni, akinek mindehhez
penze is van. Es penz - idehaza ehhez keves akad. Igazan csak a kul-
foldi toke altal megvasarolt es tamogatott lapok birjak az iramot.

De ezek "tajekoztatasi szabadsagaban" hosszu tavon nem tudok hinni.
Magyarazat? A sajat hireik a nagyvilagbol. Londonban, Parizsban,
Milanoban es masutt megvesz egy tokecsoport egy regi, olvasott,
bevezetett lapot. Van koztuk nehany baloldali, de a zome polgari,
sot mersekelten jobboldali. A felvasarlas utan jon az ultimatum:
irja azt a lap, amit az uj tulajdonosok kivannak - vagy,
barmilyen vilaghiru a szerkeszto, a riporter, mehet vilagga...
Es maris maskeppen beszel a regi, nagy lap, az olvaso meg,
eszi, nem eszi, nem kap mast.

Most ugyanezen erdekeltsegek vasaroljak fel a magyar lapokat.
Kozben hangoztatjak: az ujsagirok fuggetlenek maradnak. Az elobbiek
ismereteben: meddig? Miert hiszik kollegaink azt, hogy ami rettegett
tollu, vilaghiru palyatarsaknak nem sikerult "odaat" - az Kis Janos-
nak es Nagy Peternek sikerulni fog? A nemzetkozi sajto utolso husz
evet ismerok neveben kerdem: mikor ebredunk fel?"

Parizs 29/12/95

Fiatal, 26 eves, Parizsi magyar, villamos es elektroteknika foiskolai
vegzetseggel szeretne magyarorszagon, Budapest vagy kornyeken, belepni egy
kozos francia-magyar valallatba.

Magyar es francia perfekt nyelvtudassal rendelkezo vagyok...

Mit gondolnak, megvalosithato-e ?

Laurent Bundik
Peter Ristic-nel 

-- 
Pierre Ristic


On militry service in 44RT of Mutzig, France

I know that I am a little late with this, but we don't say Happy Birthday 
in Hungarian.  We say, Isten eltessen sokaig! (accent ague on first e on 
eltessen and on a in sokaig) which means, May God give you a long life!

Parizs 29/12/95



Parizsi 26 eves fiu, villamos es elektroteknikai foiskolazott,
francia-magyar valalatot keres magyarorszagon, Budapesten vagy kornyeken.

Kituno francia-magyar.

Mit gondolnak ??? Megvalosithato-e ???


Bundik Lorant
Throught Peter Ristic 

-- 
Pierre Ristic


On militry service in 44RT of Mutzig, France

EvaB459762 > wrote:
>Mivel szemelyesen eddig nem talalkoztam Hollosi Jozsival, nem tudom
>eldonteni, hogy pokhendi-e vagy sem. Ellenben szerintem Hollosi Jozsinak
>mi magyarok igen sokat koszonhetunk mivel a HIX-en keresztul a magyar
>"presence" az Interneten joval nagyobb mint szomszedainke. Ezt nem szabad
>elfelejteni.

Nem regen meg en is ezen a velemenyen voltam.  Amiota a Jozsi viszont
egyertelmuen elkotelezte (eladta!) magat a szadesz vonalnak, azota csak
ugy tudok gondolni az egesz mukodesere, mint amit itt "bait and switch"
taktikanak hivnak.  Magyarul a "sunyisag" sem rossz kifejezes erre.

> Kritikam vele szemben a kovetkezo: o sem, mint sokan masok az
>interneten, tud kulonbseget tenni szolasszabadsag es becsuletsertes
>kozott. Ha en lettem volna Hollosi Jozsi en mar regesregen kitiltottam
>volna embereket a Forumrol, akik masok becsuletebe tipornak politikai vita
>urugyen.
>
>En a szolasszabadsagot igen komolyan veszem. De a becsuletsertest is.

Valoban undoritonak talaltam en is, ahogy Magat tamadtak a FORUMban,
kulonosen noi mivoltaban.  Dicseretere legyen mondva, hogy Maga ezeket a
tamadasokat szerintem remekul kezelte.  Viszont az is az igazsaghoz
tartozik, hogy Maga is ralepett egy par erzekeny tyukszemre, s gyakran
az ilyen dolgok eszkalalodtak oda ahova.  "Repul a nehez ko, ki tudja
hol all meg.  Ki tudja hol all meg, kit hogyan talal meg."  Azt hiszem
ezt az Arany-i mondast nem art neha szem elott tartani.

BUEK!
Pannon J.

In article >,  > wrote:
>
>I just wanted to let you know that I have been hired by the US Government
>to be an interpreter for the US Army in Hungary.

All right!  Good for you, Misi!  I remember that ad looking for such an
interpreter and was hoping that someone familiar from these Internet
forums would be selected.  Well, my hopes have been fulfilled beyond
expectations.  Congratulations!

>For those of you who are members of the Hungarian American Heritage
>Network, I'll continue my work from Hungary.

I wonder if you will be able to get Internet connection from Kaposvar.
It's not exactly a well-wired place in Hungary!

BUEK!
Joe Pannon

The Etty Hillesum Project

practical information, rules, vote, etc. 
http://www.argyronet.com/etty


The year 2000 is dawning and yet neither peace nor prosperity are 
achieved. Latent wars and conflicts, continents economically going 
adrift, intolerable social fractures, the rise of exclusion in 
western democracies, the crisis of labour, of the ties and of the 
mind, mafia type businesses growing gigantic, expansion of many
forms of fundamentalism and mad ideologies, human Rights flouted 
all over the world... all these are striking examples.

Once indifference, intolerance, egoism, cowardice, the dictates of 
the market and the spirit of competition have been raised to the 
status of virtues, power, force and money become even more 
uncontrolled.

The Etty Hillesum project is a two-track project, basic but simple 
; some people might even call it simplistic. It is a matter of 
bearing witness. On the one hand to name, honour and be at one 
with the Just who fight for liberty, tolerance and friendship. On 
the other hand, to point out what is unacceptable by denouncing
the barbarians in public. The Internet users are the people who 
will identify them by a system of electronic voting. This could be 
you.

Each year, together, we will draw up and publish a list of the 
Just who are fighting for greater justice, frequently risking 
their lives, in places where the most elementary rights are 
flouted and ignored.

Each year, together, we will draw up and publish a list of 
barbarians, those who dishonour humanity.

The Etty Hillesum Project is not a court of law. The Etty Hillesum 
Project does not make any pretence of speaking in the name of a 
representative sample of humanity. The Etty Hillesum Project will 
only be expressing the opinions of thousands of people, who 
everywhere in the world wish to show support and solidarity with 
the Just and to add their voices to the general tide of protest
against the barbarians. We truly believe that the support which we 
shall provide for the Just, through the Etty Hillesum Project, 
will fortify them in their battles. We truly believe that, as a 
result of the Etty Hillesum Project, those who are nominated as 
the barbarians of 1995, could because of this international
condemnation, change and renounce their inhuman projects.

Important : If this project is of no interest to you, please 
accept my apologies for adding to the clutter in your newsgroup. 
If the contrary is true, please accept my thanks for your 
willingness to help by making it known to all those who might
wish to participate.


Marc Gareau

Az en tyukszemre lepeseimet ossze sem lehet hasonlitani azokkal a
tamadasokkal, amiket bizonyos emberek naponta kovetnek el a magyar-targyu
listakon. Noi mivoltomnak ehhez semmi koze es ha noi mivoltom miatt ernek
tamadasok--mintahogy ertek--az csak azt jelenti, hogy bizonyos magyar
ferfiak igen el vannak maradva a vilag kulturaltabb reszeihez viszonyitva.
Ugyanis nyugati ferfiak nem beszelnek ugy nokkel, mintha azok otevesek
lennenek. Legalabb is azokban a korokben nem, ahol mi altalaban
forgolodunk.  En nem kivanok kulonos banasmodot nokkel szemben. En
tisztesseg, emberi banasmodot kovetelek mindenkitol. De sajnos bizonyos
magyar ferfiak ezt nem ertik meg. Peldanak itt van egy "intelligens,"
"tanult," magyar ferfiu az angol nyelvu listan, aki engem egyszeruen
"Evikemnek" illetve "kicsim"-nek nevezett. Micsoda lekezelo,
elfogadhatatlan stilus. Szegyelhetnek magukat, de olyan otrombak es
tudatlanok, hogy nem is tudjak, hogy szegyelni kellene magukat. Egy masik
otromba fajanko pedig azt hiszi, hogy az elfogadhato viselkedes, hogy
valakit "undorito gondolkodasunak" illetve "notorius hazudozonak" nevez.
Es ez a "gentleman" is "tanult, es "intelligens." Hat ne haragudjon Jozsi
en ezt mind turhetetlennek tartom es azt is hozzatehetem, hogy ilyenfajta
dolgok mindossze kelet-europai bunkosaguk jelkepe. Es ha fel ohajtanak
zarkozni a muvelt nyugathoz, "europaiak" akarnak lenne, akkor jobb ha
azonnal nekiallnak es megvaltoztatjak viselkedesuket. Bumfordi, bunkos,
mucsaji viselkedesuket. Ket eve hallgatom ezeket a mucsaji kijelenteseket
orvosoktol, mernokoktol, dr. cimkevel a nevuk elott. Hat vegre betelt a
pohar! Tegnap visszairtam a bunkos mucsajinak pontosan olyan stilusban,
sajatmagat idezve, ahogy nekem ir mar ket eve. Es tudja mit Jozsi, nem
tetszett neki. Fel volt haborodva. Egeszen paff volt.

Nagyon kedves, hogy azt gondolja, hogy

>Dicseretere legyen mondva, hogy Maga ezeket a tamadasokat szerintem
remekul >kezelte. 

de sajnos ez en remek kezelesemmel sehova sem jutottam. Ezek az emberek
tul bumfordiak ahhoz, hogy az ilyen "subtle" kezelest megertsek. Hat talan
majd megertik a kevesbe "subtle" stilust. Es ha valakinek a tyukszemere
leptem a fentiekkel hat legyen! Tul otromba tyukszem ez. Jo lenne
leoperalni!

Balogh Eva

U.i. Kulonben Magara persze nem haragszom es Boldog Ujevet.

If you haven't already checked out our homepage, why not do it now?

http://home.ptd.net/~tamlamb/gene.htm

: I think that was very nice of you to inform Andrea Cocito of the
 "Language of Love" I'm going to print that for myself.  You never know when yo
u might need it. Thanks, Jennifer Ferris Blacksburg VA

 () wrote:

>The Roman Empire was long gone when the Hungarians arrived in the
>Carpathian Basin at the end of the period commonly known as the Great
>Migration of People. 

Is this the politically correct translation of the historical event
universally known as the Great Barbarian Invasions?

Dorin Taranul

Kedves Balogh Eva,
sajnos el van tajolva (megint), hiszen Hollosinak sem az oka sem 
pedig urugye nem azt volt a Forum cenzurazasara, hogy ott valaki
"becsuletsertest" kovetett volna el. Ha az lett volna, mar regesreg
kitiltotta volna Magat, kedves Balogh Eva, pl. amikor Dr. Endrey-t
szenilisnek nevezte, nem?

Hollosi *urugye* az volt a "moderalatlan"-nak nevezett Forum
cenzurazasara, hogy valahol, valaki atmasolt a "Hirmondo"-bol
par bekezdest. Nos, urugynek ez jo (urugynek barmi jo), csakhogy
pl. eppen ezt a "soc.culture.magyar" listat Hollosi NAPONTA masolja
a sajat HIX fejlece ala, mintha az ove volna -- megsem esik barki
abba a hibaba, hogy ilyen altalanos Internet gyakorlat miatt 
Hollosit "eltiltsa" barmitol.

Erdekesnek talalom azonban, hogy Maga "becsuletsertesrol" szajkozik
(ami egyaltalan nem szerepelt a cenzura "indoklasaban"), masok
(Maga is) az "etikatlan masolas urugyet" pengetik minduntalan
(amit Hollosi NAPONTA gyakorol pl. a Maga leveleivel is) -- mig
*senki* nem beszel, illetve mindenki melyen hallgat a cenzurazas
valodi *okairol*.

Szucs Andras (megirta a Nemzetbe) eppen *harmadszor* akarta bekuldeni
Szatmari konyvenek az SZDSZ sajtohegemoniara valo torekveserol irt
sorait, s *EZT* akarta megakadalyozni Hollosi, hogy az SZDSZ
"kekeinek" sajtohegemoniajarol legyen nyilvanos vita a HIX-en.
(Ketli? Javaslok Maganak valamit! Masolja be a Forum-ba Szucs
Andras altal bekuldott de haromszor kicenzurazott anyagot - lassuk
hogy lesz-e nyilvanos vita errol a Forumban! [alabb mellekelem
Szucs Andras altal bekuldott anyagot])

A HIX-en Hollosi nem csinal semmi *mast* mind amit otthon a "kek"
SZDSZ-sajtohegemonia csinal -- barmilyen modszerrel, fair vagy
nem fair, egyszeruen meg kivanjak olni a Magyar Sajtoszabadsagot,
mielott az eletrevalo csecsemove cseperedhetne! Ha valoban 
a Magyar Sajtoszabadsag partolasat tartja fontosnak, vajon mi
fontosabb, hogy legyen legalabb egy *cenzurazatlan* magyar lista
az Interneten, vagy pedig hogy "szenilis" (stb) becsuletsertesek
ki legyenek irtva?

Udvozlettel 
Dr. Pellionisz Andras

[ime a HIX-altal visszaigazolt, de harmadszorra is kicenzurazott, ott
soha meg nem jelenheto cikk]

> =======================================================
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Szatmari 90-es joslasa bevalt ( 58 sor )
> Idopont: Thu Dec 21 16:31:47 EST 1995 FORUM #1846
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Vajon masok is megdobbentonek tartjak-e a Szatmari Jeno Istvan
"(Majdnem) halott ujsagiro nem hazudik" c. par honapja megjelent
konyveben talalhato, de eloszor mar 5 esztendeje (1990-ben meg-
jelentetett) "joslasok" szinte betu szerinti beigazolodasat? A
"Forum"-ban is mar jo evek ota szamos olyan, a perspektiva segit-
segevel elorelathato, "politologiai elorejelzes" volt talalhato,
melyeket az ido igazolt. Jo lenne tudni, hogy latjak a vita-
partnerek a trendek elore jelezhetosegenek a kerdeset.

Aki esetleg nem ismerne a konyvet, Szatmari idezi az eredetileg a
"Szabadsag, szo, szerkezet" cimu, (Magyar Vasarnap, 1990/9 szamban
megjelent) "politologiai elorejelzeset", melyben az alabbiakat irja:

"Az IMF diktatumait ismerve mar-mar azt kerdezem: miert jo nekunk,
hogy szovjet gyarmatbol a nemzetkozi penzvilag gyarmatava valjunk? Mi
valtozik ettol?  Lassuk csak: korabban volt legalabb egy viszonylagos
szocialis biztonsag.  (Mar, persze, ami penzt erre a koltsegvetes
sokat elnyelo lyukas nagy kalapjabol a szakszervezeti es
szocialis-egeszsegugyi lobbyk ki tudtak sirni es harcolni, es ami
ebbol a kisembernek azutan meg megmaradt, hogy a lobby volt vezerei
szep reszet egyszeruen zsebre vagtak, vagy sajat hobbijaikra
koltottek)

Igaz, volt e viszonylagos biztonsag melle egy kemeny "POFA BE!" is
azoknak, akik gondolkodni mertek.

Es mi van most? Egy eleddig nemigen ismert retteges a holnaptol, a
koltsegvetest vagy az IMF tavoli urai diktaljak, vagy csak csendben
rohoreszve turik, hogy rajuk hivatkozzanak a nep sarcoloi,
lefaragjak a szocialis, egeszsegugyi, lakas-, mezogazdasagi es mas
tamogatasokat, hozzajarulasokat. Es van melle egy "ugathatsz
barmirol" tipusu sajtoszabadsag.

De meddig? A papir, a nyomdak, a terjesztes arai a csillagos egekbe
szoktek. Szep lassan (vagy egyre gyorsabban) pusztulnak ki a magyar
sajtobol az onallo hangu kis lapok, es csak azok maradhatnak fenn,
amelyek ezt a kimeletlen harcot penzzel is birjak. A tobbi meg -
mars a sullyesztobe. Szebb esetben megjelenik nehany szaz peldanyban,
de a lakossag tomegeit csak az tudja manipulalni, akinek mindehhez
penze is van. Es penz - idehaza ehhez keves akad. Igazan csak a kul-
foldi toke altal megvasarolt es tamogatott lapok birjak az iramot.

De ezek "tajekoztatasi szabadsagaban" hosszu tavon nem tudok hinni.
Magyarazat? A sajat hireik a nagyvilagbol. Londonban, Parizsban,
Milanoban es masutt megvesz egy tokecsoport egy regi, olvasott,
bevezetett lapot. Van koztuk nehany baloldali, de a zome polgari,
sot mersekelten jobboldali. A felvasarlas utan jon az ultimatum:
irja azt a lap, amit az uj tulajdonosok kivannak - vagy,
barmilyen vilaghiru a szerkeszto, a riporter, mehet vilagga...
Es maris maskeppen beszel a regi, nagy lap, az olvaso meg,
eszi, nem eszi, nem kap mast.

Most ugyanezen erdekeltsegek vasaroljak fel a magyar lapokat.
Kozben hangoztatjak: az ujsagirok fuggetlenek maradnak. Az elobbiek
ismereteben: meddig? Miert hiszik kollegaink azt, hogy ami rettegett
tollu, vilaghiru palyatarsaknak nem sikerult "odaat" - az Kis Janos-
nak es Nagy Peternek sikerulni fog? A nemzetkozi sajto utolso husz
evet ismerok neveben kerdem: mikor ebredunk fel?"

Kedves Balogh Eva!

Masutt ugyanezen a listan "becsuletsertesekrol" sopankodik,
de erdekes hogy nem veszi eszre milyen becsuletsertest
alkalmaz akar ellenem (Pellionisz) akar Toth Jozsef ellen,
mikor a Nemzet-ben ujrakozolt OMRI hiranyagrol most mar
ismetelten allitja hogy az "lopott". Joska ba' egyszer
mar lekozolte a Nemzet-ben az OMRI-tol jott levelet, amiben
irasban is nyugtazzak, hogy a NEMZET  *az OMRI irasos
ENGEDELYEVEL* kozli az a hirnyagot, melyet az OMRI azert
csinal, hogy azt minel tobben olvassak, s igy hivatalos
"policy"-jeben nagyon is benne van az ujrakozles lehetosege.

Szerintem ha valaki LOPASSAL vadol valakit, holott egyszer
mar irasban cafoltak ragalmazasait, az valodi becsuletsertest
kovet el -- Hollosi "szabalyai" szerint Maga nyugodtan 
kitilthato lenne civilizalt listakrol e miatt.

Tevedes ne essek - en *VALOBAN* a Szabad Sajto hive vagyok,
es egyaltalan nem all szandekomban (illetve helytelennek
tartom) hogy barki "onbiraskodjek" es Maga ki legyen
tiltva. (Elvegre, ha Toth Joska ba' gondolja, ott vannak
a birosagok, nyugodtan beperelheti Magat - nem szukseges
"a jogot sajat kezbe venni" es az Interneten biraskodni.)

Hollosi modszere ezert *IS* etikatlan, hiszen Hollosi a 
HIX-en "buntet", holott a Hirmondo nem is ra tartozik,
hiszen a Hirmondo *NEM HIX* - soha sem is volt az. 
Onbiraskodik, s raadasul ra nem is tartozo ugyben.
Ugyanazt teszi, mint Maga, amikor az OMRI "neveben"
kifogasolta a NEMZET altali ujrakozlest. Persze tudom,
orult volna ha sikerul az OMRI-t Toth Joska ba'-ra uszitani
az OMRI-nak irt "bemoszerolo" levelevel, de hat ez nem
ment es nem is fog menni, hiszen az OMRI irasos engedelye
megvan a NEMZET-nek. Igy hat nem marad Maganak mas, mint
"sajat kezbe venni a jogot, onbiraskodni". Remelhetoleg
azonban minden olvaso szamara teljesen vilagos mind a
Maga "moszerolasa", mind pedig onbiraskodasa.

Udvozlettel
Dr. Pellionisz Andras

On Mon, 25 Dec 1995 11:21: (Derek Suchard) wrote:

>Apologies if this is not in your language.
>
>Beginning in the spring of 1996, a new, easy-to-use, on-line e-mail directory 
>will start up on the World Wide Web.
>
>To find out how you can get your e-mail address listed so others can find you,
 
>see:
>http://www.xs4all.nl/~dsuchard/infopls.html
>
Before I waste my time to look up your web site can you tell me what
it will cost.

I am a Singaporean who's very interested in the Magyars of Translyvania. 
Are there any WWW sites devoted to the Translyvanian Magyars and the 
Hungarian heritage there ?

Please email.

Thanks.

LOVEis not by words but by who you treat that person ,SHARINg up's and
downs 

secrficaes,caring.thats love effectionmore than words 
SOMETING i havnot found yet.

Szeretlek

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

---------------------------------105091917723922
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Hello Kovacs,

I happened to read your material. As a hatred literature looks fine. I 
don't have anything against Hungarians because that would be stupid to 
generalize. But I think that you do have a problem. It doesn't really 
matter how many hours one should spend on this issue, the 
Hungarian-Romanian relationship, one has to be open and understanding.You 
cannot build a future on hatred. Look what happend in ex-Yougoslavia and 
you'll realize that peace is so difficult after those terrible killings. 
Romanians get along well whith Hungarians in Transylvania, but the 
politicians, on the both sides, are looking for trouble. Dwelling so much 
on the past how can you look at the 21-st century ?

Respectfully.

Silviu

---------------------------------105091917723922
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN

Quite by coincidence, I happened to see part of a CNN World Report about
Rumania's new TV station, broadcasting news into neighboring countries.
(Please see Reuters story of November 30.) The Rumanian reporter promised
the station is and would be objective. 

He then bemoaned the fact that in the neighboring countries Rumanian is
regarded as a foreign language, even though those people, according to
him, are descendants of Rumanians. ( I checked. I saw the broadcast on
December 24, not April 1.)

The "reporter" has a point, even if not the one he intended. There is
historical evidence of contact if not kinshipexcept in the Christian
sensegoing back centuries. 

Those now calling themselves Rumanians, had been nomadic shepherds, slaves
to Serbs and Romans. This was bound to affect their language. Respected
linguists (of Rumanian and other nationalities) say almost half of all
Rumanian words are of Slavic origin, less than a third Latin, and lesser
percentages of Turkish, Greek, and Hungarian origin. What little written
language existed, was in Old Church Slavonic using the Cyrillic alphabet;
the conversion to the Latin alphabet occurred only in the nineteenth
century. This was probably of little consequence, for according to
former-Prime Minister Petre Roman, the people became literate only
recently, under Communism. 

Hungarian as a significant component of the Rumanian language is a product
of its historical contribution. Throughout its 1,100 year history, Hungary
had provided a safe haven to many peoples persecuted in their own
homelands. In recent times, until occupied by the Nazis in March of 1944,
Hungary provided safety for Jews from all over Europe. 

Centuries earlier, nomadic shepherd first infiltrated and grazed their
flocks in Transylvania. Eventually, having subsequently been given safety
by the Hungarians, the ancestors of those today called Rumanians took many
words that trace their origin to that time in history, about the 13th
Century. Among them: the Hungarian word for admissionbefogadasbecame,
"fagadui"; the Hungarian word for giving shelterszallasadasbecame
"salasdui". 

The names of towns, rivers, streams are all of Hungarian origin, adapted
to make them easier for a Rumanian to pronounce. Also unchanged is the
Rumanian word for Transylvania. It, too, is an adaptation of the Hungarian
word, Erdely. 

The name "Rumania" for the country is of fairly recent origin. These
people had called their pre-Trianon territory Wallachia, and were
themselves called Vlachs. In Transylvania, they had been considered a
foreign element by Hungarian and Saxon alike, for religious and not ethnic
reasons. They were adherents of the Byzantine rite church.  When Rumania
was formed in 1859, it adopted the prevalent self-definition "Rumin" used
by the Ottoman Turks to refer to the Byzantine empire and the Balkans. To
this day, the Turks call Greeks and other adherents of that confession
rumlar, or Romans. 

At the time of the Reformation, their beliefs and practice were considered
so strange to Catholics and Protestants alike, that they were considered
non-Christian.  Attempts to convert these Rumanians/Vlachs had their own
impact on literature and language. A catechism was commissioned and paid
for by the Transylvanian city of Nagyszeben. It was translated and printed
in Rumanian in 1544. A Rumanian religious convert named Coresi
translated and printed the four Gospels in Brasso in 1561; by 1563, the
rest of the New Testament had been translated and printed. The first Bible
in Rumanian was commissioned by Gabor Bethlen and printed in 1648 under
Gyorgy Rakoczi I. 

Many new Rumanian words were to enter the language. To give some
examples: the Hungarian terhes (burdensome) became taroasa; oka
(cause, reason of/for) became oca; oltalmazni (protect, guard against)
became otalmazui. 

But history has been overtaken by present day exigencies and expansionist
ambitions. To aid them, a Daco-Roman myth of ancestry has been invented.
Absent what history can provide, evidence had to be created. 

The Rumanian language has been enlisted in that drive and become
dynamic, undergoing continual change. Every year words of Latin or
French origin are substituted for Rumanian words in textbooks and
elsewhere. In this way, over a period of years, the myth can be
transformed and language used to show that Rumanians are of Roman
origin. 

If only all the changes in the present were so benign or confined to
language. 

But kinship has acquired a new meaning. For it, there were no pictures,
there was no story showing just how hate now rewards hospitality. Nor the
means chosen for its expression: a sophisticated form of ethnic
cleansing, so called by Bishop Tokes, one of the heroes of the
Revolution/Coup of 1989. It seeks first to kill the soul. 

There was good news, though. A brief glimpse of the snow-capped mountains
of Transylvaniawhere long-ago Rumanians sought and were given shelter,
for themselves and their flocksshowed them to be beautiful. Still.

---------------------------------105091917723922--

In article >  (Miguel Oliveira
) writes:
>From:  (Miguel Oliveira)
>Subject: Re: Please help translation (3 Words !)
>Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 23:37:03 GMT



>>Warning: this message is cross-posted so please don't
>>overload the other groups posting followups and send
>>me E-mail instead (specify the language you are
>>translating to ! ;-)

>>Thank you very much.

>Didn't anyone read the fucking message!
>>Andrea.

Well try some Poetry to cheer yourself up!:-))
http://www.interlog.com/~jas/welcome.html/jashome.html


>Miguel Oliveira

 () wrote:

>|> >>>(Note: Those "Dako-Roman theorists, who welcomed Anonymus' 
>|> ''Gelou'' as the found "missing link" between the Daks and modern
>|> Rumanians made not only "Gelou", but also "Glad", and the Hungarian
>|> Menumorut as "Wallachian Princes" of X. Century Transylvania. Of
>|> course, these historians forget to mention that the same Anonymus also
>|> called the Magyars as "the people of the great King Attila[i.e.,. the
>|> Hun].") <<< [Haraszti, E., 1972, Origin of the Romanians (Vlach
>|> Origin, Migration, and Infiltration to Transylvania). Danubian
>|> Research Center.] 
>|> 

>I don't think Haraszti is a historian by profession;

Nevertheless, you have suggested that the Hungarian history page,
Haraszti's contribution included,  should be used as a trustworthy
reference for the historical debates storming so often scr and scm :-)
Because you have agreed that 

>His target audience was obviously not historians, but the English speaking
>lay public.

it seems to me your reference is not the product of a genuine,
objective, scientific research, but plain propaganda.

Now, I don't think there is something wrong with good propaganda, but,
bad news,  Haraszti's propaganda is bad propaganda. Any objective
Western reader would become suspicious learning from Haraszti that
ancient Romanians were 

	"degenerated Romans" that "did not reveal the proud, sophisticated

	characteristics which was so typical for the legionaries and citizens

	of Urbs Eterna,"  

while, by contrast, ancient  Magyars 

	"consciously belonged to the great Turanian (Ural-Altaic) people"

Romanians were "poor..humble servants...completely illiterate...
without any desire or tendency for education," observing with anger
"the rich and educated feudal lord," that is, of course, the Magyars.

>|> First, Menumorout,  "the Moravian Stallion," is nowhere
>|> in Gesta described as Hungarian; he is presented as a ruler over
>|> Kavars, who declines "with a Bulgarian heart," to yield any part of
>|> his territory to Arpad.

>Actually, Kavars (or Kabars) was one of the tribes from Khazaria joining 
>Arpad's Magyar tribes in the conquest.

According to Anonymus, Meumorout's people settled in Transylvania long
before 896. Therefore, the peoples called "Cozars," who inhabited
Menumorout's lands, even if they were of the race of the Khazars, were
not the Kavars that joined Arpad's federation.My point is that, based
on Anonymus, Haraszti's claim that Menumorout was Hungarian is totally
unwarranted. 

>|> Secondly, Anonymus named "the Siculi," not the
>|> Magyars,  as the "populi Atthyle regius".

>I must tell you that it is a common belief
>amongst the Siculi (Szekely) themselves that they are the people of
>Csaba, the son of Attila, the Hun.  So that belief goes against another,
>later Attila

Boba thinks quite the opposite: "Among the sons of Attila the Hun,
Western sources mention Ellac, Dengizic and, the youngest, Ernak.
"Ethela" of the Hungarian sources had also several sons; known by name
are: Chaba and Aladarius."  Moreover, the father of Attila the Hun was
Mundzucus. Hungarian sources, other than Anonymus, name as father of
Ethela or Atyla a certain Bendekus.  Attila the Hun had several wives,
among those known by name were Ereka or Erykan and Ildiko. The wives
of "Ethela" of the Hungarian sources were Honoria and Cremild. 

Therefore, your Csaba might be Chaba, the son of Ethela, but probably
not the son of Attila the Hun.

>|>Finally, Haraszti's theory
>|> on the " Hun-Avar-Late Avar-Magyar chain" almost starts me thinking a
>|> bit more highly of the Daco-Roman continuity :-)

>I don't know of any Hun-Avar link, but the 
>late Avar-Magyar connection does have a serious following among
>Hungarian historians and archeologists.  Prof. Gyula Laszlo is the most
>prominent, if not originator, of this school

Laszlo argued  that, based on archeological evidence, after 670 in the
Carpathian basin two people different in origin coexisted side by
side: wearers of belts cast in bronze (the Avars) and wearers of belts
bearing griffin ornaments (Magyars). The question that pops
immediately in my mind is, how Laszlo knows that the culture of
griffin belonged to a Magyar-speaking people? According to the same
fundamentally flawed reasoning, the proponents of the Daco-Roman
continuity are entitled to argue that 4th century pottery from
Transylvania belonged to Daco-Roman speakers :-)  

>|> That's debatable. Recently, Martin Eggers, building partly on Boba's
>|> thesis and utilizing archeological evidence, as well as an impressive
>|> array of written sources, suggested that Ratislav's capital, Margus,
>|> was a fortress on Mures, mentioned by some sources as urbs Morisena,
>|> (later Maroswar, modern Hungarian Marosvar), and known today as Cenad
>|> in Romanian (near Sinnicolau Mare). Therefore, if Eggers is correct,
>|> at least the eastern part of Transylvania and most of Banat was at
>|> that time under the influence of megale Moravia.

>This theory would not clash too much with what the Hungarians
>maintained about Conquest-era Transylvania, namely that it was sparsely
>populated, primarily by Bulgarian and Slavic elements.  Let me not tell
>you from what direction most attacks will come against this new theory
>though. ;-)

Hmmmm, let's see: 

In Regnum Sclavorum, Presbyter Diocleas says that Sventopolk urged the
Christians who had been living in the mountains since the barbarian
invasions to return to their former cities and homes. Diocleas also
knew that these people in hiding were "Latin." Also, Jenkins'
Commentary to D.A.I. mentions that, according to a later Byzantine
text, the 9th century  Moravs were Serbs and Vlachs. That puts the
Vlachs in, or very close to, Transylvania *prior* to the Magyar
arrival. And that's all we care about, isn't it? :-)  

>Getting back to Haraszti's book, I have not read it through yet, but
>from what I've read about the origin of Romanians, it is not that
>different from what you maintain.  Care to comment where you see some
>major differences between the two?

Haraszti book, despite its title, is not too much about the origin of
Romanians. The author is not  concerned with revealing the pre-Latin
ethnic substrate of the Romanians or the area where they originated.
Rather, he focuses on persuading his reader that the cradle of the
Romanians was not Transylvania. 

In his introduction (Ch.1) he claims that the goal of his approach is
not to to deal with the "Daco-Roma continuity." However,  he manages
to contradicts himself immediately (Ch.2), trying to dismiss the
"continuity theory." Romanization was impossible in Dacia Traiana, his
argument goes, because the autochthonous population was exterminated
in a real genocide. He obviously ignores evidence that argue against
the alleged genocide,  and proves that he  doesn't understand what
controls on the romanization process. More important, even if one
accepts as a proven fact the extermination of the Dacian people, that
in itself is not a proof against the continuity between the
present-day Romanians and the colonists of Dacia Traiana. 

On the other hand, Haraszti is very vague with respect to the
pre-Latin ethnic make up of the Romanians. He doesn't care who they
are as much time as they are somewhere from "the southern parts of the
Balkans" and not from Transylvania. He even mentions several times
Epir and Macedonia, ignoring two well-known facts:

	1.Present-day  Arumanians and Meglenites are not autochthonous (see 	
		Wance and Thompson's "The Nomads of the Balkans"), and

	2.Romanization was an extremely improbable process south of the 
		Jirecek line.

Linguistic evidence speaks  clearly against Map No. 3 that shows, the
Vlachs as being not romanized Illyrians but rather romanized Greeks.
Furthermore, Haraszti's reasoning on this matter seems to be deeply
rooted in the pseudoscience of phrenology: " The *looks* of most of
the Rumanians are still Turkish." How can he argue with those who
think that Romanians still "look" Dacians? :-)

Haraszti argues that the Vlachs "did not have historical memories"
regarding their Latin descend. Genuine popular traditions and customs
speak for the contrary. Even more surprising is his claim that ancient
Romanians called themselves Vlachs. In reality, all Vlachs used to
call themselves, and some still do,  with a term derived from the
Latin "romanus" [Romanians--rumi^n, Istrians --ruma~r,
Arumanians--ar(u)ma^n(u), ruma~n(u), ra~ma~n(u)] . Actually, Haraszti
himself mentions that Basarab called his country "Tara Romaneasca,"
not "Wallachia"

According to Haraszti, "They came from a Byzantine-oriented Slav
world, so they detested anything which was "Roman", "Latin",..."
Haraszti is probably not aware of the 12th century correspondence
between Pope Innocent III and Ioannitsa Caloiohannes Imperator. 

Another thing that sucks is Haraszti's chronology of the Vlach's
migration. His goal is to keep the Vlachs as far as possible south of
the Danube prior to the Magyar arrival. In order to do that he must
ignore, again, the linguistic evidence pointing to the fact that the
oldest known North-Romanian toponyms, pre-dating the 9th century, are
situated in the Serbo-Croatian lands.

It is my opinion that Haraszti does not know the subject he is writing
about. Just as an example, he is even confused by the genealogy of a
well-known personality as Vlad the Impaler:

" Meanwhile, King Sigismund founded a society of knights, the
"Order of the Dragon" (1408), to fight Turkish invasion. Several
members of this new military order were noblemen of both Hungarian and
Vlach origin. One of them was Vlad "the Impaler", who obviously
disagreed with Mircea [the Old] at this time.  Mircea agreed with
Mohammed I (1413-1421) to become a faithful vassal of the Sultan
(1415), but Vlad was still ready to fight on the Christian side."

Obviously, Haraszti doesn't know what he's talking about. For him,
Vladislav II, Vlad Dracul, and Vlad "Draculea" the Impaler are not
three different Romanian rulers,  but one.  Shame on him! :-) 

As I said, his work does not rank high enough to be included in a
Hungarian History Page.  

Regards,

Liviu Iordache

In article >,
 wrote:

> "I love you"
In Icelandic: "'Eg elska thig" (Should be: É (E accent aigu) and th
written ţ like a b and a p in the same stroke)

> ================================================================
Petur Rasmussen                              
Menntaskolinn vid Sund                       Tel:  +354-553 2858
IS-104  Reykjavik, Island.                   Fax:  +354-568 3835
> ================================================================