Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 978
Copyright (C) HIX
1997-04-23
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: church growth in Hungary (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: church growth in Hungary (mind)  39 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Learning languages.... (mind)  91 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Learning languages.... (mind)  46 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: church growth in Hungary (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Learning languages.... (mind)  42 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Learning languages.... (mind)  32 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Learning languages.... (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: church growth in Hungary (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
10 Babylon 5 (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Learning languages.... (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Learning languages.... (mind)  36 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: Learning languages.... (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: church growth in Hungary (mind)  34 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Learning languages.... (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: Learning languages.... (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: New area - Canada and Us from ESB (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: Learning languages.... (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: Learning languages.... (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: Learning languages.... (mind)  34 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: Babylon 5 (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
22 Re: church growth in Hungary (mind)  54 sor     (cikkei)
23 Re: Babylon 5 (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
24 Re: New area - Canada and Us from ESB (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
25 Borsszem Janko (mind)  6 sor     (cikkei)
26 Request to President Goncz to intervene for the csangos (mind)  60 sor     (cikkei)
27 Re: Babylon 5 (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
28 Re: HTMH- "The West" (mind)  42 sor     (cikkei)
29 HL-Action: request US-office in Gyor (mind)  91 sor     (cikkei)
30 Re: Babylon 5 (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
31 Re: New area - Canada and Us from ESB (mind)  34 sor     (cikkei)
32 Re: Learning languages.... (mind)  48 sor     (cikkei)
33 Re: Learning languages.... (mind)  38 sor     (cikkei)
34 Re: New area - Canada and Us from ESB (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
35 Re: Learning languages.... (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
36 NOMAIL (mind)  1 sor     (cikkei)
37 Re: Learning languages.... (mind)  39 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: church growth in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I could not agree more about fast-food, but I have this feeling you don't
know very much about the Mormon church, or you would likely not have said
what you did.  There are about 10 million members of the church, and more
than half of them are not Americans.  Spanish is the most commonly spoken
language.

And any religion that can persuade 19-year-old young men to spend two
years at their own expense, behind what was then the Iron Curtain, living
and eating and riding the villamos with Hungarians, learning to
convincingly speak the language and become passionate advocates for
Hungary and Hungarians all over the world, to learn the Himnusz (IMHO the
most beautiful national anthem in the world) and to be unable to sing it
through for crying, and to make such wonderful friends... well, your cold
sores must be more welcome than mine.  I learned to love Hungary.  I
learned to love God.  And I learned that the two are not necessarily
incompatible.

Kristof
+ - Re: church growth in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
 (MDtoCEO) writes:

>And any religion that can persuade 19-year-old young men to spend two
>years at their own expense, behind what was then the Iron Curtain, living
>and eating and riding the villamos with Hungarians, learning to
>convincingly speak the language and become passionate advocates for
>Hungary and Hungarians all over the world, to learn the Himnusz (IMHO the
>most beautiful national anthem in the world) and to be unable to sing it
>through for crying, and to make such wonderful friends... well, your cold
>sores must be more welcome than mine.  I learned to love Hungary.  I
>learned to love God.  And I learned that the two are not necessarily
>incompatible.
>
>Kristof

Did you ever stop to think that this says more about the basic politeness
of the Hungarian people and the sympatico nature of Hungarian culture than
it does anything about the spiritual power of the Church of Jesus Christ
of Latter-Day Saints? Or that it speaks volumes about the romantic nature
of your average 19 year-old kid? I would hope you learned to love God well
in advance of your mission work in Hungary or else you were wasting your
time and being a poor ambassador for the United States by coming across as
an uninformed religious fanatic whom your Hungarian targets could not get
off their front door step without being forced into participating in a
rambling theological discourse in which one of the parties was unprepared
to engage in any meaningful fashion.
Sam Stowe

P.S. -- What about a qui vive? Joe keeps his cold sores to himself and you
stop trying to out-Magyar Petofi himself.

"You see, one of my favorite
in-class demonstrations every
year was to dip live rabbits in
liquid nitrogen, then give them a
good whack on the countertop..."
-- Milkman Dan, sadistic former
high school science teacher
+ - Re: Learning languages.... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
 (MDtoCEO) writes:

>Sam-
>
>
>>>Hungarian is lyric, which English is not.
>
>>I suppose Shakespeare, among others, must have been some kind of
>>linguistic freak of nature.
>
>Shakespeare WAS a freak of nature.

How about Joyce? (Please -- no references to Leopold Bloom and the
Khazars!)

>
>
>>> Hungarian is lawful, which
>>>English is not.
>
>>You obviously missed the character-building experience common to
millions
>>of other native English speakers of having some anal-retentive old bat
>>spend a year of your life sometime in your adolescence trying to drill
>>English grammar (i.e., "da rules") into your impermeable noggin.
>
>I did not say I couldn't diagram an English sentence.  I like "da rules"
>very much; I merely wish my mother tongue would follow them.  Hungarian,
>by contrast, follows its rules.

So does English. You may not think the grammatical patterns are entirely
logical, but they are consistent. Too bad English, like every other living
language, is in the constant process of change thanks to new words, the
falling away of archaic grammatical patterns (care to enlighten us about
the usage of who vs. whom?) and changes in pronunciation. If we could
simply chloroform it, we could take it to a competent taxidermist, have it
stuffed and set it up on a shelf next to Latin and Sanskrit. I bet the
language snobs would love that.

>
>>>Hungarian has at least six billion suffixes, which
>>>English has not.
>
>>Predictable descent into hyperbole.
>
>I think of it as ascent into hyperbole.

The glass being half empty vs. the glass being half full, eh?

>
>
>>> I speak English, but I love Hungarian.
>
>>The pertinent question is whether it loves you in return.
>
>Whether the language, as inanimate thing, loves me or not I cannot say.
>But how many Hungarians, living in Hungary, unrelated to you, remember
>YOUR birthday?
>I think the pertinent question is whether or not you speak Hungarian.
>Your name gives me pause.

It shouldn't. It's not a name of particular shamanistic power, as far as I
can tell. Perhaps it's that language snobbery creeping into other areas of
your life. The pertinent answer to your question is that I speak enough
Hungarian to know that it ain't the toughest language to learn on the
planet and is, in fact, pretty logical and straight-forward when compared
to some Native American languages or Caucasian languages. (that doesn't
mean languages spoken by white folks, by the way.) As far as unrelated
Hungarians in Hungary remembering my birthday, I've never been that
pathetically hungry for personal validation at the hands of a complete
stranger.

>
>>Sam Stowe
>
>Kristof
>
>Or have I seen you on soc.culture.magyar and just forgotten?

No, name-dropper, you haven't. Signal-to-noise ratio there approaches
much-sound-and fury-signifying-nothing status.
Sam Stowe

"You see, one of my favorite
in-class demonstrations every
year was to dip live rabbits in
liquid nitrogen, then give them a
good whack on the countertop..."
-- Milkman Dan, sadistic former
high school science teacher
+ - Re: Learning languages.... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Sam-


>>Hungarian is lyric, which English is not.

>I suppose Shakespeare, among others, must have been some kind of
>linguistic freak of nature.

Shakespeare WAS a freak of nature.


>> Hungarian is lawful, which
>>English is not.

>You obviously missed the character-building experience common to millions
>of other native English speakers of having some anal-retentive old bat
>spend a year of your life sometime in your adolescence trying to drill
>English grammar (i.e., "da rules") into your impermeable noggin.

I did not say I couldn't diagram an English sentence.  I like "da rules"
very much; I merely wish my mother tongue would follow them.  Hungarian,
by contrast, follows its rules.

>>Hungarian has at least six billion suffixes, which
>>English has not.

>Predictable descent into hyperbole.

I think of it as ascent into hyperbole.


>> I speak English, but I love Hungarian.

>The pertinent question is whether it loves you in return.

Whether the language, as inanimate thing, loves me or not I cannot say.
But how many Hungarians, living in Hungary, unrelated to you, remember
YOUR birthday?
I think the pertinent question is whether or not you speak Hungarian.
Your name gives me pause.

>Sam Stowe

Kristof

Or have I seen you on soc.culture.magyar and just forgotten?
+ - Re: church growth in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Kristof wrote:

> I could not agree more about fast-food, but I have this feeling you don't
> know very much about the Mormon church, or you would likely not have said
> what you did.  There are about 10 million members of the church, and more
> than half of them are not Americans.  Spanish is the most commonly spoken
> language.

Whoa, millions of Mormons in Spain ?  Never heard that one, not that it
has much Hungarian relevance.

> And any religion that can persuade 19-year-old young men to spend two
> years at their own expense, behind what was then the Iron Curtain, living
> and eating and riding the villamos with Hungarians,

Why, what a sacrifice, riding the tram with Hungarians and eating with
them !  I suggest your concept of hardship is somewhat cushy and/or or your
wording is pretty patronizing.  Though, I suppose you were still more
exposed to a harshly different world than those fellow churchmen of yours
whom I regularly have to pry away from my front gate in Australia.

Still, that Iron Curtain in Hungary at that time was a rather rusted-through
version of the real thing: in the bad old days Yank proselytizers were not
allowed to hang about for years.

George Antony
+ - Re: Learning languages.... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:40 PM 4/21/97 -0300, you wrote:

>Szia Gabor!
>Gabor Farkas - At 10:01 PM 21/04/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Nice to see you name again .... been awhile.>

>>Did you ever try to learn Chinese? Now that must be hard...
>>Gabor D. Farkas

>I am sure that the linguists on the group can best address the
>technicalities of the oriental languages.  But from personal experience
>what I find most difficult if not impossible to grasp is the control that
>one is required to utilize over one's tone of voice - or if you prefer
>voice inflections.  
[...snip....]

I have a Vietnamese acquaintance whose daughters are named
(don't hold me to the spelling -- this is strictly phonetic): Twee and 
Twee, the only difference as far as I could tell, being that one is flat 
and other is trailing upwards (almost like a question). I wonder if they
knew to what they were sentencing their children in Brownsville, 
Texas.

Once I asked him if he introduces them as "this is my daughter
Twee and this is my other daughter Twee," but for some obscure
reason the joke was lost on him. :-) :-)

Of course they never heard the difference between örült (s/he rejoiced)
 and o"rült (s/he is mad). 

Tit for tat, methinks.

[...snippity doo-dah........]
>(Of course, being very Hungarian in temperament, you

Here I caution you to exercise untypical restraint... primarily
because the issue of the (in)famous Hungarian temperament
is my next intended topic of discussion.... killjoy, you.

:-) :-)

Bandi
+ - Re: Learning languages.... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 08:22 PM 4/21/97 -0400, you wrote:
>At 09:21 AM 4/21/97 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote, remarking on Gabor Fencsik's
>writing:
>
>>You forgot to mention many Hungarian's penchant for reminding everyone of
>>Hungary's small size, as if the size of a country has anyting to do with
>>anything.  I have no doubt that it's an attempt to make success stories
>>seem even more successful.
>
>        Oh, yes, that's a good point. "Kis orszag vagyunk!" That's a
>favorite. It also has something to do with self-pity, I think. ESB
>
>

I think that it is not self-pity, but rather a terrible need to reduce the
same
cognitive dissonance we talked about earlier.

As far "as if the size of the country has anything to do with it" (Joe's
words)
I am REALLY impressed by WORLD accomplishments of Hungarians
DESPITE the size of our country of origin. I will reiterate the gist of an
earlier
post of mine (somewhere): PER CAPITA, there is no country on Earth
that can compare with Hungary's contribution to the world of science, art,
music, etc....

I really do wish y'all spent some time on HipCat's HomePage.

    http://mason.gmu.edu/~achassel/famous.html

Bandi
+ - Re: Learning languages.... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 10:46 PM 4/21/97 -0400, you wrote:
>At 10:05 PM 4/21/97 -0400, Gabor Farkas wrote:
>
><snip>
>>I had a strange experience in Finland. If you hear people talking, without
>>listening, it sounds exactly like Hungarian (accents, vowels, etc.). Once
>>you start listening, you don't understand one word.
>
>I had the same experience in Budapest.  We were staying at a pension on
>Hegyalja ut, in Buda, and one day a group of people came in.  They were
>talking amongst themselves and, at first, I couldn't understand why I
>didn't understand them.  It sounded Hungarian to my ears.  I thought that
>maybe they were from Erde'ly, or some mysterious place like that.  I had to
>listen really carefully to realize that they weren't speaking Hungarian at
>all.  After they left I asked the manager what language they were speaking
>and he told me that they were a group of Finnish tourists.
>
>Joe Szalai


Gabor! Miklos! anyone!.... are you gonna let him get away with "mysterious?"
+ - Re: church growth in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 08:58 PM 4/22/97 GMT, Kristof wrote:

<snip>
>And any religion that can persuade 19-year-old young men to spend two
>years at their own expense, behind what was then the Iron Curtain, living
>and eating and riding the villamos with Hungarians, learning to
>convincingly speak the language and become passionate advocates for
>Hungary and Hungarians all over the world, to learn the Himnusz (IMHO the
>most beautiful national anthem in the world) and to be unable to sing it
>through for crying, and to make such wonderful friends... well, your cold
>sores must be more welcome than mine.

I never said I had cold sores, but .... thanks for sharing ... I guess(?).
And don't you know that 19-year-olds can be persuaded to do just about
anything.  That says somethings about 19-year-olds.  It doesn't say
anything about religion, faith, god, etc..

>I learned to love Hungary.  I learned to love God.  And I learned that the
two are >not necessarily incompatible.

You're not the shiniest bead on the rosary, are you Kristof?

Joe Szalai
+ - Babylon 5 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

E.Balogh and J.Szalai wrote:

>>than most. I would be very happy with a "world government." ESB
>
>I'd be happy with a world government too.  However, a world government

Whoa! "World government". Don't be cheap! We need a galaxy government,
and together we will attack and destroy the Romulan Empire (or Clingon,
Cartasian, Shadow Empire, whatever we want).

J.Zs
+ - Re: Learning languages.... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Bob Hosh wrote:

>I don't think Eva Balogh is speaking of Manifest Destiny in this instant. What
>she is pointing out is that Canada and the U.S. have far more in common than
>most people will admit. This is the 21st century as you like to point out, Joe
,
>and it's economy that is the real issue here. It makes sense, even more so to
>Canada to be a part of a vital strong continental and global economy.

and also E.Balogh:

>        Yes, in fact, English Canada has been struggling, quite
>unsuccessfully I think, to carve out an identity different from the United
>States in the south. But most of these efforts are not positive but
>negative: anti-Americanism.

The ideas like these explain why I had the following experience so often.
Whenever I am talking about foreign countries with an American I usually
ask whether s\he has ever been abroad. Too often the answer is 'Oh,
unfortunately not, but I would love to go and once I will'. As I live in
Northern Ohio, my usual next question is 'not even in Canada, it is just
an hour drive'. The answer is frequently ' Oh, yes, yes, I have been there,
but it's not really abroad'.

J.Zs
+ - Re: Learning languages.... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Andrew J. Rozsa wrote:
>
> At 08:22 PM 4/21/97 -0400, you wrote:
> >At 09:21 AM 4/21/97 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote, remarking on Gabor Fencsik's
> >writing:
> >
> >>You forgot to mention many Hungarian's penchant for reminding everyone of
> >>Hungary's small size, as if the size of a country has anyting to do with
> >>anything.  I have no doubt that it's an attempt to make success stories
> >>seem even more successful.
> >
> >        Oh, yes, that's a good point. "Kis orszag vagyunk!" That's a
> >favorite. It also has something to do with self-pity, I think. ESB
> >
> >
>
> I think that it is not self-pity, but rather a terrible need to reduce the
> same
> cognitive dissonance we talked about earlier.
>
> As far "as if the size of the country has anything to do with it" (Joe's
> words)
> I am REALLY impressed by WORLD accomplishments of Hungarians
> DESPITE the size of our country of origin. I will reiterate the gist of an
> earlier
> post of mine (somewhere): PER CAPITA, there is no country on Earth
> that can compare with Hungary's contribution to the world of science, art,
> music, etc....
>
> I really do wish y'all spent some time on HipCat's HomePage.
>
>     http://mason.gmu.edu/~achassel/famous.html
>
> Bandi
A new rassistic attempt? ;-)))
Miklos
+ - Re: Learning languages.... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Andrew J. Rozsa wrote:
>
> At 10:46 PM 4/21/97 -0400, you wrote:
> >At 10:05 PM 4/21/97 -0400, Gabor Farkas wrote:
> >
> ><snip>
> >>I had a strange experience in Finland. If you hear people talking, without
> >>listening, it sounds exactly like Hungarian (accents, vowels, etc.). Once
> >>you start listening, you don't understand one word.
> >
> >I had the same experience in Budapest.  We were staying at a pension on
> >Hegyalja ut, in Buda, and one day a group of people came in.  They were
> >talking amongst themselves and, at first, I couldn't understand why I
> >didn't understand them.  It sounded Hungarian to my ears.  I thought that
> >maybe they were from Erde'ly, or some mysterious place like that.  I had to
> >listen really carefully to realize that they weren't speaking Hungarian at
> >all.  After they left I asked the manager what language they were speaking
> >and he told me that they were a group of Finnish tourists.
> >
> >Joe Szalai
>
> Gabor! Miklos! anyone!.... are you gonna let him get away with "mysterious?"
Why not, Bandi? I am deeply impressed. "Mysterious" is an "in word" in
the age of space vehicles ( vehicules ) in the wake of comets, celeb-
rated on THE NET, isn4t it? And seeing Erdily as a mysterious place
indicates literate and - more - literary education ( you know, Dra-
cula...) which is, again, even more impressing... :-)
Miklos
+ - Re: church growth in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

George Antony wrote:
>
> Kristof wrote:
>
> > I could not agree more about fast-food, but I have this feeling you don't
> > know very much about the Mormon church, or you would likely not have said
> > what you did.  There are about 10 million members of the church, and more
> > than half of them are not Americans.  Spanish is the most commonly spoken
> > language.
>
> Whoa, millions of Mormons in Spain ?  Never heard that one,

?! You never heard about Middle and South America? And the USA?
( Spanish being there the dominant language soon? );-)

not that it
> has much Hungarian relevance.
>
> > And any religion that can persuade 19-year-old young men to spend two
> > years at their own expense, behind what was then the Iron Curtain, living
> > and eating and riding the villamos with Hungarians,
>
> Why, what a sacrifice, riding the tram with Hungarians and eating with
> them !  I suggest your concept of hardship is somewhat cushy and/or or your
> wording is pretty patronizing.  Though, I suppose you were still more
> exposed to a harshly different world than those fellow churchmen of yours
> whom I regularly have to pry away from my front gate in Australia.
>

Ye mean, REAL hardship would be to live in Australia?
It4s an interesting concept, tell mora about!

;-)
MKH
+ - Re: Learning languages.... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Joe Szalai wrote:
>
> At 07:51 PM 4/22/97 -0400, Eva Balogh wrote:
>
> <snip>
> >        You misunderstand me. I would be the happiest if there were no
> >nation states. And Canada as a nation state is a great deal more ridiculous
> >than most. I would be very happy with a "world government." ESB
>
> I'd be happy with a world government too.  However, a world government
> doesn't mean that there won't be nation states.  And if you want to look at
> really ridiculous nation states, look at Africa.  European imperialists
> carved up that continent in a way that makes no sense whatsoever.
>
> Joe Szalai
Darned right you are!!!
Miklos
+ - Re: Learning languages.... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

E.S. Balogh wrote:
>
> At 12:13 PM 4/22/97 -0400, Andy Kozma wrote:
> >I am not a nationalist,but I dislike when some
> >very educated person,brings up hwo tremendous the country she lives in is.
>
>         Did I ever say anything about how tremendous the United Sates is? In
> fact, as far as some people are concerned I am outright anti-American (;)).

You are good for a surprise, again and again, Eva!

If that were the case, surely I would have taken out
> American citizenship. Which I didn't.
>
But, I hope, you - at least - pledged allegience...?
Miklos
+ - Re: New area - Canada and Us from ESB (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

E.S. Balogh wrote:
>
> At 09:14 AM 4/22/97 -0400, Darren wrote:
> >Isn't all territory and ethnic construction just a artificial construct?
>
>         Yes, they are, but Canada is more so than most. ESB

Why?! Redcoats rule the bush since longer than the Boston Tea Party...
MKH
+ - Re: Learning languages.... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

E.S. Balogh wrote:
>
> At 08:57 AM 4/22/97 -0400, Bob Hosh wrote:
>
> >I don't think Eva Balogh is speaking of Manifest Destiny in this instant.
 What
> >she is pointing out is that Canada and the U.S. have far more in common than
> >most people will admit.
>
>         Yes, in fact, English Canada has been struggling, quite
> unsuccessfully I think, to carve out an identity different from the United
> States in the south. But most of these efforts are not positive but
> negative: anti-Americanism.

This applies for social systems and even personalities : identity is
to a high degree differentiation AGAINST the others. Thusfar, I do not
think this is negative. Use mustn4t take it too seriously, men ARE
just like this...( BTW this is the great service the Land of Evil used
to warrant for the West. Since it4s gone, you might have the - IMHO
perfectly correct - impression, we are falling apart...

 >It makes sense, even more so to
> >Canada to be a part of a vital strong continental and global economy.
>
>         There is no question in my mind that Canadians would live better if
> they were part of a North American Federation of some sort.

Why not try EC? Even Quebec would fit in...except for their spoken
French. Nobody would understand it in Louxembourg...
;-) MKH
+ - Re: Learning languages.... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

E.S. Balogh wrote:
>
> At 02:28 PM 4/22/97 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote:
>
> >Well, you may be right.  Besides, there's no need to be a nationalist when
> >you already live in the best country in the world, eh?
>
>         You misunderstand me. I would be the happiest if there were no
> nation states. And Canada as a nation state is a great deal more ridiculous
> than most. I would be very happy with a "world government." ESB

I already tried this one ( US of the W, EUM ) : there is no long
survival without ( environment ). But NOBODY, just NOBODY being on
the same Continent as Washington, D.C. was ready to notice...

MKH
+ - Re: Learning languages.... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Joe Szalai wrote:
>
> At 08:14 PM 4/22/97 +0200, Miklos Hoffmann wrote:
>
> <snip>
> >Joe, I do share your firm opinion that it4s not fine, gentlemanlike,
> >reminding a lady what she said earlier.
> >;-)Miklos
>
> I've never treated Eva Balogh as a 'lady'.

I am afraid, this is true. I was just trying to be much  to
polite, not telling you frankly...But than yours is an utterly
- how did you put it in democratic America? - an utterly un-Hun-
garian practice!

 I think she'd vouch for that.
> Her gender is revelant only if she is being discriminated against because
> of it.

I am not going to comment on this.

> I try and not do that.

???. Could it be possible that first signs of wisdom are coming
up with your age? In that case, I congratulate you. As for me, I am
still waiting and hoping...

> Therefore, I'll remind anyone of earlier
> comments they've made if it helps, or clarifies, my arguments.
>
How crude...

;;;---))) Miklos Hoffmann
+ - Re: Babylon 5 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Janos Zsargo wrote:
>
> E.Balogh and J.Szalai wrote:
>
> >>than most. I would be very happy with a "world government." ESB
> >
> >I'd be happy with a world government too.  However, a world government
>
> Whoa! "World government". Don't be cheap! We need a galaxy government,
> and together we will attack and destroy the Romulan Empire (or Clingon,
> Cartasian, Shadow Empire, whatever we want).
>
> J.Zs
Germans would say : ganz durchgedreht ( something like . entirely
flipped out, cracked out, blew his mind...I was just tought on the list
that not living there I DO NOT qualify for using proper idiom. I decided
to boldly live with my inferiority... ).
MKH
+ - Re: church growth in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I have lived in Australia since 1949 and do NOT consider it a particular hardsh
ip to live there. It used to have one of the highest standards of living in the
 world and the situation is still not bad though it has deteriorated in the pas
t 25 years. Parts of Australia are hot and parts are dry but in winter the Snow
y Mountains contain some of the largest winter snowfields and in summer extensi
ve hiking treks. I live in Canberra, the federal capital and it is a particular
ly beautiful small city of 300,000 inhabitants only 4 hours drive from Sydney, 
the largest city, an honour vied for by Melbourne.

Regards
Dénes 



----------
From:  Miklos K. Hoffmann[SMTP:]
Sent:  Wednesday, 23 April 1997 18:48
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: church growth in Hungary

George Antony wrote:
>
> Kristof wrote:
>
> > I could not agree more about fast-food, but I have this feeling you don't
> > know very much about the Mormon church, or you would likely not have said
> > what you did.  There are about 10 million members of the church, and more
> > than half of them are not Americans.  Spanish is the most commonly spoken
> > language.
>
> Whoa, millions of Mormons in Spain ?  Never heard that one,

?! You never heard about Middle and South America? And the USA?
( Spanish being there the dominant language soon? );-)

not that it
> has much Hungarian relevance.
>
> > And any religion that can persuade 19-year-old young men to spend two
> > years at their own expense, behind what was then the Iron Curtain, living
> > and eating and riding the villamos with Hungarians,
>
> Why, what a sacrifice, riding the tram with Hungarians and eating with
> them !  I suggest your concept of hardship is somewhat cushy and/or or your
> wording is pretty patronizing.  Though, I suppose you were still more
> exposed to a harshly different world than those fellow churchmen of yours
> whom I regularly have to pry away from my front gate in Australia.
>

Ye mean, REAL hardship would be to live in Australia?
It4s an interesting concept, tell mora about!

;-)
MKH
+ - Re: Babylon 5 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 02:40 AM 4/23/97 -0400, Janos Zsargo wrote:

>E.Balogh and J.Szalai wrote:
>
>>>than most. I would be very happy with a "world government." ESB
>>
>>I'd be happy with a world government too.  However, a world government
>
>Whoa! "World government". Don't be cheap! We need a galaxy government,
>and together we will attack and destroy the Romulan Empire (or Clingon,
>Cartasian, Shadow Empire, whatever we want).

I take it you don't like the idea of "world government".  Why not?  We all
live on the same planet, and if someone somewhere does something that
effects us, and the planet, negatively, then what are we going to do?
Without a world government our only option may be war.  Given that, I'd
prefer a world government.  I guess you prefer to solve problems the old
fashioned manly way - brute force.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: New area - Canada and Us from ESB (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Tue, 22 Apr 1997, Miklos K. Hoffmann wrote:

> Darren Purcell wrote:
> >
> > Isn't all territory and ethnic construction just a artificial construct?
> > As they gain strength, I would not consider them so malleable. I think
> > that border is fixed and won't change to soon. Quebec is another story.
> >
> But wouldn4t that let geography boom?!
> Miklos Hoffmann
>

Milkos, we still don't have enough accurate maps from the breakup of old
USSR or Yugoslavia. Cartographers and geographers will be employed for a
good while without haveing to revise Canada :-)

Seriously though, Identities as they form are want to ossify. they become
hard structures and tend to change slowly (glacially). English Canada may
have an identity crisis, but I am nto convinced that every American sees
them as AMerica north. In florida, they are catered to quite nicely and
still differentiaated from locals.

 Let the debate continue.

Darren
+ - Borsszem Janko (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Thank you for the information about Borsszem.  When I got home I was
able to check my trusty "mondasok" encyclopedia and found that
"borsszemet torni" means to make fun.
I also realized that I confused the words "borso" and "bors".  Not for
the first time.
Elizabeth
+ - Request to President Goncz to intervene for the csangos (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Colleagues,

The Pope will see President Goncz on the 3rd of June. In the attached letter,
I have asked the President, to use this opportunity to request Hungarian
language masses for the csangos of Moldva. If you agree, please write your
own letter.

The address is given on the letter, his telephone number is: 361-268-4000,
fax: 361-156-3801, his E-mail address I do not know.

Best regards: Bela Liptak
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Dr. Árpád Göncz
A Magyar Köztársaság Elnöke
1357 Budapest, Országház, HUNGARY

Tisztelt Elnök Úr, Kedves Árpád!

Nagy örömmel olvasom, hogy június 3-án, Szent Adalbert halálának 1000-ik
évfordulóján Téged is fogad a Pápa. (Pannonhalmi diák koromban én is Adalbert
voltam, mert a bencések a Bélát "túl pogánynak" tartották.)

Mint mindig, és gondolom mindenki más is, megint kérni szeretnék Töled! Azt
szeretném kérni, hogy használjad ki ezt az alkalmat arra, hogy magyar misét
kérj a moldvai csángó magyarok számára.

Múlt összel, a müegyetemi tanitás után, jártam köztük (Klézsa nagyközség Buda
nevü falujában, a Bérc és Háromkereszt dombok között, a Szeret folyó
partján). Visszaérve, a Magyar Lobbi tagjaival együtt irtunk: 1) a Pápának,
2) a Vatikáni Rádiónak, 3) Ioan Robu (a renegát Rab János) érseknek
Bukarestbe, 4) Petru Gherghel (a renegát Gergely Péter) püspöknek Jasiba, 5)
Paskai Lászlónak Esztergomba. Gherghel püspök nevében egy Vladimir Peterca
válaszolt németül, Paskai László helyett Seregély István egri érsek. E
levélváltásokat mellékelem. A többiek válaszra sem méltattak bennünket.

Kedves Árpád! Nincs elhagyottabb, segitségre rászorúltabb és azt jobban
megérdemlö ága a magyar családnak, mint a moldvai "magyar" csángók. Június
3-án történelmi alkalmad lesz, hogy tehess értük. A politikai légkör is
kedvezö erre, mert ma már nem az állam, hanem csak a renegát papok üzik ki a
templomból, iskolából az "ördög nyelvét", a magyart. Ha idöd engedi, menj el
közéjük a Csiksomlyói búcsúra (Pünkösd elötti szombat), hallgassad meg öket.
Markó Béla (kivel múlt héten beszéltem erröl) is azt mondta, hogy ez a
történelmi pillanat, kérlek használjad ki ezt a június 3-i alkalmat.

Stamford, 1997. április 23.

Tisztelettel és szeretettel köszönt,




(Lipták Béla)

Mellékletek:
1) Levélváltás Seregély Istvánnal egri érsekkel
2) Levélváltás Petru Gherghel iasii püspökkel
3) Moldvai látogatásom naplója
4) Volt római konzul, Kádár György tájékoztatása
5) Az unitárius egyház részéröl Gellerd Judit tájékoztatása
+ - Re: Babylon 5 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

J.Szalai wrote:

>I take it you don't like the idea of "world government".  Why not?

Wrong, again. The question is not whether I like it or not, but if
it feasible or not. Given the present state of the world this idea
is not more than sci-fi.

J.Zs
+ - Re: HTMH- "The West" (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 8:53 PM -0300 4/16/97, Aniko Dunford wrote:
>Thank you Barna.  This is very interesting indeed.  Your post reminded me
>of something.
>
>During 56, a structure in Montreal was established - I believe by the name
>of  Macdonald College, situated on Bai D'urfee(sp) (nothing to do with the
>golden gates).  I have heard several people insinuate, that it's founder(s)
>were key advocators of "countless" Hungarian Medical Student refugees.  It
>was also insinuated, that it's main function was to establish housing for
>the many medical student refugees landing in Montreal, specifically from
>Hungary.  Does anyone have any factual information on this?  Would dearly
>love to hear them.
>
>Regards,
>Aniko

 In 1957 nine hundred and fifty-eight Hungarian refugee students had been
surveyed in Canada as  previously attending schools in Hungary at the
following faculties:

Engineering     575     60%
Science         85      8.87%
Arts            61      6.61%
Commerce        48      5.01%
Medicine                53      5.60%
Agriculture     37      3.86%
Premedical-
dental          24      2.50%
veterinary              13      1.35%
others          26      2.70%
Graduate
 Studies                10      1.04%

could not prove
standing                26      2.71%

As you can see only few of the students were medical students and even
fewer went to school in 1957 in Montreal. I am not aware of any institution
except for Petofi House that served these students.

Peter I. Hidas
Montreal
+ - HL-Action: request US-office in Gyor (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:      normal

Background:
  A new success for the Hungarian Lobby: According to an announcement
of Al Gore and Madeleine Albright the new foreign policy of the US government
will deal with the protection of natural treasures all over the
World. This policy is regarded as an integral part of national
security.
  The result of this new foreign policy is that the USA will open 12
regional offices in the 12 environmentally most endangered areas in
the World. Thus, our next goal is to reach that one of these offices
will establish in Gyor (Northwest of Hungary). This step would show
the American care for the Danube to the whole World.

What to do:
  Please help to persuade the Gore and Albright to open one of the
planned offices in Gyor. Feel free to use the attached form letters.
   IT IS IMPORTANT THAT THE POLITICIANS FIND THOUSANDS OF LETTERS IN
THEIR MAILBOX. PLEASE ACT!! Please SEND EVEN SNAIL MAILS. These are more
effective.

e-mail of Vice President Gore:


e-mail of the Secretary of State Albright:


*************************************************************

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter to Gore:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

The Honorable Al Gore
Vice President of the United States
The White House
Washington, D.C. 20001
(e-mail: )

RE: Establishment of environmental office in Gyor

Dear Mr. Vice President:

Please consider the city of Gyor in Hungary, as one of the 12 new
regional environmental hubs to be established by the State
Department. This would show your interest in the survival of the
natural treasures of the Szigetkoz wetlands, which evolved from
Europe's only inland sea-delta and survived since the last Ice Age.

The Szigetkoz Wetlands are endangered since Slovakia illegally
diverted the Danube river, depriving Hungary of her natural resource.
The result is devastating environmental damage.

Respectfully yours,

<Your name, address, title>


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter to Albright:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

The Honorable Madeleine Albright
United States Secretary of State
United States Department of State
Washington, DC 20520
( E-Mail:  )

RE: Establishment of environmental office in Gyor

Dear Madame Secretary:

Please consider the city of Gyor in Hungary, as one of the 12 new
regional environmental hubs to be established by the State
Department. This would show your interest in the survival of the
natural treasures of the Szigetkoz wetlands, which evolved from
Europe's only inland sea-delta and survived since the last Ice Age.

The Szigetkoz Wetlands are endangered since Slovakia illegally
diverted the Danube river, depriving Hungary of her natural resource.
The result is devastating environmental damage.

Respectfully yours,

<Your name, address, title>
+ - Re: Babylon 5 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Joe Szalai wrote:
>
> At 02:40 AM 4/23/97 -0400, Janos Zsargo wrote:
>
> >E.Balogh and J.Szalai wrote:
> >
> >>>than most. I would be very happy with a "world government." ESB
> >>
> >>I'd be happy with a world government too.  However, a world government
> >
> >Whoa! "World government". Don't be cheap! We need a galaxy government,
> >and together we will attack and destroy the Romulan Empire (or Clingon,
> >Cartasian, Shadow Empire, whatever we want).
>
> I take it you don't like the idea of "world government".  Why not?  We all
> live on the same planet, and if someone somewhere does something that
> effects us, and the planet, negatively, then what are we going to do?
> Without a world government our only option may be war.  Given that, I'd
> prefer a world government.  I guess you prefer to solve problems the old
> fashioned manly way - brute force.
>
> Joe Szalai
Which is exactly what a world government ( Th US of the W, EUM )
would do ( I admit, would have to do in order for our children
and their children to survive).
M.
+ - Re: New area - Canada and Us from ESB (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Darren Purcell wrote:
>
> > >
> > But wouldn4t that let geography boom?!
> > Miklos Hoffmann
> >
> Milkos, we still don't have enough accurate maps from the breakup of old
> USSR or Yugoslavia. Cartographers and geographers will be employed for a
> good while without haveing to revise Canada :-)
>
> Seriously though, Identities as they form are want to ossify. they become
> hard structures and tend to change slowly (glacially).

Seriously, too, I agree with you. I think, it4s not just identities
that petrify ( ossifying would mean at least some elasticity ) but
systems, especially social systems like states, churches, parties,
gangs, companies, universities,... ). There appears to be an inherent
law in systems : we establish them in order to achieve a goal ( e.g.
offering protection, coping with complexity, etc ). As soon as they are
established, systems tend to forget their original task. They have just
two goals : a) maintain the ( existence of ) the system and B) expand
the system both in the environment ( conquering ) and inward (  sub-
jugate, subdue the subjects of the system )

> In florida, they are catered to quite nicely and
> still differentiaated from locals.
>
Compared with that flood of Germans, they must be like
natives...;-)

>  Let the debate continue.

Indeed.
Miklos
+ - Re: Learning languages.... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Andrew J. Rozsa wrote:
>
> In view of the overwhelming evidence against my earlier hypothesis, I now
> officially
> declare Hungarian an easy language to learn.
>
> I will accept that anybody can learn it flawlessly and that my poor mother's
> brain must have ankylosed after learning 9 or 10 languages perfectly,
>

> But, seriously this time, I think that Hungarian is an easy language, but
> it is
> UNLIKE any other, hence the perception that it is difficult. The
> pronunciation is
> murder and you have to have a fine ear for languages to hear the sounds and a
> fine brain to be able to replicate them. I take my hat off to anyone who
> masters it
> and the winner of the bet has a standing invitation to a fantastic chicken
> paprikas
> dinner (complete with freshly made galuska/nokedli, and ugorka salata) cooked
> by my lovely (Southern) American wife, who, after 17 years of daily practice,
> still cannot say our last name properly. She is a piano teacher, BTW. Oh, I
> almost forgot: the dinner includes also some Badacsonyi Szurkebarat made
> before
> 1989 and Tokaji Aszu with dessert.

I am still waiting for the phone+fax number + address : I presented
immediately the waiter in Hajduszoboszlo. You may check it, it4s just
off Rt. 4.
Paprikascsirke would be fine. It NEED not be a Szuerkebarat. A light
dry white Ontario vine could go perfectly with that. ( With the On-
tario wine I LOST a bet in Cargary to a waiter : he proposed the wine.
I said, I think there was no drinkable Canadian wine ( I tried wine in
Upstate NY before ( however not from the Ontario Region ) and thought,
the Canadian one couldn4t possibly be less frustrating ). He said, try
it. If you don4t like it, it4s on the house. If you like it, you will
know the proper tip. I knew it.

>
> As far as how this discussion has gone... I am DELIGHTED with the response.
> We
> are becoming a VERY pleasant little community here, aren't we?
>
Thank you, Sir. Very kind of you indeed, Sir.
( You enjoyed your mood, didn4t you, To"vis? )

:-) :-)
Miklos
+ - Re: Learning languages.... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

aheringer wrote:
>
> In article >, 
> says...
> >
> >aheringer wrote:
> >>
> >> >Nor am I a part of any anti-Americanism chorus.  But know what?  I
> have
> >> >this bizarre theory, that if one could successfully combine all the
> >> >strengths of the States, with all the strengths of Canada, the
> >> weaknesses
> >> >of the combined two would likely become minute.  (Now ... before you
> go
> >> >killing yourself laughing, stop and really think about this bizarre
> >> concept
> >> >for a minute .....)  And, by all means, have a field day with it
> >> >....:-)))))). (Not to mention the rest of ya)
> >>
> >> Well, Aniko, it may still happen, if the next Quebec referendum will
> be
> >> victorious and they are going to separate.  Then, sooner or later, we
> >> will all join the US....  Otherwise, I feel the same about itthon and
> >> otthon.  After all, I was 23 when I left and that was 40 years ago.
> That
> >> shows you how important those formative years are!
> >>
> >> Agnes
> >Aniko & Agnes, I recall - back in those days - I saw that picture
> >of the Earth taken from the moon. And I said and FELT, yes, there I am
> >at home.
> >Ain4t that great?
> >Miklos
>
> Jawohl!  Agnes

German you speak, too, Agnes? And without an accent!
;-)))  Miklos
+ - Re: New area - Canada and Us from ESB (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 10:34 PM 4/23/97 +0200, Miklos Hoffmann wrote:

>Compared with that flood of Germans, they must be like
>natives...;-)

        Not quite, if they are French Canadians. I hear interesting stories
about them from prejudiced Americans wintering in Florida. ESB
+ - Re: Learning languages.... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 08:35 PM 4/23/97 +0200, Miklos Hoffmann wrote:
>A light
>dry white Ontario vine could go perfectly with that. ( With the On-
>tario wine I LOST a bet in Cargary to a waiter : he proposed the wine.
>I said, I think there was no drinkable Canadian wine ( I tried wine in
>Upstate NY before ( however not from the Ontario Region ) and thought,
>the Canadian one couldn4t possibly be less frustrating ). He said, try
>it. If you don4t like it, it4s on the house. If you like it, you will
>know the proper tip. I knew it.

        You mean you liked it? Oh, my God! I remember those lovely bottles
of red wines, sold only in special wine stores in Ontario, costing $1.00. At
parties in the first few years, the poor Hungarian refugees gozzled it and
got sick on it.
        ESB
+ - NOMAIL (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

subscibe NOMAIL 
+ - Re: Learning languages.... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 10:17 AM 4/23/97 +0200, Miklos Hoffmann wrote:

>Joe Szalai wrote:

<snip>
>>I've never treated Eva Balogh as a 'lady'.
>
>I am afraid, this is true. I was just trying to be much  to
>polite, not telling you frankly...But than yours is an utterly
>- how did you put it in democratic America? - an utterly un-Hun-
>garian practice!

You got that right!  And women in Hungary would benefit from our
"un-Hungarian" practice, too.  Putting a woman on a pedestal and treating
her like a lady is a manipulative practice.  And why do men do it?  It
seems obvious to me.  Treat a woman as a 'lady' and you can expect her to
do more, for less.  I think it's as simple at that.  It's exploitation of
half the race.  But it's exploitation with a kind, caring, gentlemanly,
male face.  Thanks, but no thanks.  I'll gladly remain un-Hungarian on this
one.

<snip>
>>Her gender is revelant only if she is being discriminated against
>>because of it.
>
>I am not going to comment on this.

You're doing your darndest to avoid a discussion of feminism, aren't you?
Are you afraid that some parochial attitudes might emerge?

<snip>
>> Therefore, I'll remind anyone of earlier
>> comments they've made if it helps, or clarifies, my arguments.
>>
>How crude...

It's not crude.  Perhaps Machiavellian.

Joe Szalai

AGYKONTROLL ALLAT AUTO AZSIA BUDAPEST CODER DOSZ FELVIDEK FILM FILOZOFIA FORUM GURU HANG HIPHOP HIRDETES HIRMONDO HIXDVD HUDOM HUNGARY JATEK KEP KONYHA KONYV KORNYESZ KUKKER KULTURA LINUX MAGELLAN MAHAL MOBIL MOKA MOZAIK NARANCS NARANCS1 NY NYELV OTTHON OTTHONKA PARA RANDI REJTVENY SCM SPORT SZABAD SZALON TANC TIPP TUDOMANY UK UTAZAS UTLEVEL VITA WEBMESTER WINDOWS