Five nations outperformed the United States in math and science:
   Japan, Korea, Singapore, the Czech Republic and Hungary.
===
Hungary to Shop, American Style

Opening of 2 Malls in Budapest Heralds New Retailing Era in Eastern Europe
====

1- glad to see that
2- it is megamall time! how will this effect the small(er) merchants --
will they survive? can they survive?? How long will these mega-malls last
in HU?

Peter

At 02:36 PM 11/29/96 -0500, Peter Soltesz wrote:
>Five nations outperformed the United States in math and science:
>   Japan, Korea, Singapore, the Czech Republic and Hungary.

        I hate to tell you. Not only five countries did but more than
twenty. Out of forty-six countries, the U.S. was in in bottom half. First
was Singapore both in science and in natural sciences. Hungary was a bit
behind its normal performance: eighth and ninth. By the way, these were
seven and eight-graders who were tested.

        Eva Balogh

At 01:58 PM 11/29/96 +0100, Magda Zimanyi wrote:

>Sure the parties tried to defend jealously their share of power.
>However, the conditions were not equal for all the parties. The
>communist party had all the support of the Soviets.

        Of course, there is no question about the above. The communists had
the advantage thanks to the presence of the Soviet troops. We must also
mention that the Smallholders having absolute majority (over 57 percent)
didn't have to form a coalition government--they were forced to do so and
important cabient posts, like that of the minister of interior, went to the
communists.

>The so-called
>"salami-tactics" ("szalami-taktika") of Rakosi which sliced gradually
>the so-called "right-wingers" from the Smallholders party and the
>Social democrats, started immediately after the '45 elections. Many
>Social democrats and Smallholders were put into prison or forced into
>exile. So after the '45 elections neither the Smallholders nor the
>social democrats were in a very good position to guard their share of
>power.

        Although this is all true but all this doesn't prove that people
were actually forced into the party before 1948-49. I think the fact that by
October 1945 there were half a million communist party members speaks for
itself: a lot of people, some from genuine belief in the soviet system, some
because of the shock of the holocaust, some because of opportunism, joined.
If you consider that the Kadar regime's party membership was around 800,000
the 500,000 in October 1945 is pretty staggering.

>It would be interesting to know e.g. how many people who were members
>of the Smallholders party in '45 could be found as members of MKP in
>'47 or '48. I suppose there is no official statistics about that.

        I am pretty sure that there isn't, but I don't think that the
communists really needed the old smallholders. Put it that way, my father
was never approached. Or my uncle.

>"Right-wing social democrats" was one category. Church-goers were
>expelled during the purges as "clerical reactionaries" ("klerikalis
>reakcios"). Some people were expelled as "ideologically not
>sufficiently developed" ("ideologiailag nem eleg fejlett").

        There had to be quite a few of the last category: "ideologically not
sufficiently developed" because of the sudden onslaught of people into the
party. Surely, the majority of these people barely had heard of Marx and
Engels before. Mind you, they began the indoctrination immediately. I
remember a passage in Gyula Horn's autobiography in which he tells that his
mother was sent to a 10-week, live-in party school where "they learned a
lot." Considering that Gyula Horn's mother most likely didn't even finish
eigth grades you really wonder what kind of high-level ideological education
we are talking about.

>You can doubt it and find it unlikely, however, I described facts.

        I am simply basing my opinion on numbers.

        Eva Balogh

At 06:59 PM 29/11/96 -0500, you wrote:
>At 02:36 PM 11/29/96 -0500, Peter Soltesz wrote:
>>Five nations outperformed the United States in math and science:
>>   Japan, Korea, Singapore, the Czech Republic and Hungary.
>
>        I hate to tell you. Not only five countries did but more than
>twenty. Out of forty-six countries, the U.S. was in in bottom half. First
>was Singapore both in science and in natural sciences. Hungary was a bit
>behind its normal performance: eighth and ninth. By the way, these were
>seven and eight-graders who were tested.
>
>        Eva Balogh

There must be several studies going on with results quite widely publicized
so it seems.  Some months ago, I also read of one in the Globe and Mail
(Toronto, Canada).  Of sixteen countries ranked at the time in Math alone -
Hungary ranked 3rd, (1st being Japan, followed by Korea); the US ranked
14th, while Canada 9th.  15th and 16th, were countries that my memory failed
to retain them.   I'll try to dig out that article for you all.
Regards,
Aniko

>
>

In article >,
 says...
>
>On Tue, 26 Nov 1996, Marina E. Pflieger wrote:
><<SNIP>>
>> Oy, oy......another one! Kindly crawl back under the rock you came from..
>..
>> Maybe you and the good Reverend Soltesz could comiserate somewhere
>> out there near Plymouth Rock and leave us to our pagan ways of celebratin
>g
>> Thanksgiving. Wheeeeeeeee........
>>
>You said it Marina -- you ARE Pagan. Besides it looks like you have been
>embibing eraly!
>Peter

Darn, da storee aah hoord is dat it waas dem Native Americans who showed
the Pilgrim Fathers how to really throw a thanksgiving. (Doesn't it go
something like: those ungracious Pilgrims started off their feeble little
*feast* inviting only two or three VIP injuns, but the whole darned lot
turned up, polished off the meagre helpings in a jiffy and went and brought
back some serious food and turned it into a real party lasting days?) Yoo
Yanquis owe it aawl ta dem thar "savage injuns".  ;-)

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ICPUG..C=64 * ARM Club..Acorn * NWLCC

In article >,
 says...
>
If there were a god,
>I would think It would enjoy to see goodness and good will... and not be
on
>some kind of eternal ego-trip where we all have to cheer It on.
>
>If Christians can take pagan holidays such as Saturnalia (and Celtic
tree
>worship) and Pagan Spring rites and turn them into a sacred X'mas and
Easter,
>why can't non-believers be allowed to show thanks for a good life
without being
>berated?
>
>No, a god does not have to be in this holiday. Are goodness and sincere
thanks
>less good w/o a god attached to it??  Please, do not act offended for
god...
>I'm sure if there were a god It'd either understand or be mature about
it. I'm
>sure that a knowing, loving god would be more secure then to be offended
over
>this and that.... or else It's really be tired.
>
>Happy Holidays,
>Mark

My thoughts exactly.  Agnes

Happy Thanksgiving!


Albert Albu

In article
>, "Peter A.
Soltesz" >, aka Pilgrim Pete writes:

>BTW -- ithe post  about the original thanksgiving that I sent in, please
>note that those Christians KNEW that they were the COVENANT people! (Ala
>an older post on the true nature of ISRAEL (biblical).

I seem to remember your earlier post on the true nature of Israel. Isn't
that the one where you go on at length about how the true descendants of
the lost tribes of Israel are Anglo-Saxons and white Americans? If it is,
it is a turn-of-the-century British theology called British Palestinianism
or something like that. It's the well-spring of the current Christian
Identity movement in the U.S., which includes the openly racist Aryan
Nations. Congratulations, Peter! You're keeping rather unsavory company.
Any chance there's camouflage clothing, an assault rifle and a copy of the
"Turner Diaries" in your closet? You have the distinction of being a guy
who gets his religious beliefs directly from a shortwave radio.
Sam Stowe

>
>Peter Soltesz
>
>Please do have a good thanksgiving and watch out for those turkeys on the
>road too!

P.S. -- Regardless of my distress at your disturbing beliefs, I hope you,
too, have a happy and meaningful Thanksgiving. And I hope the Redskins
beat the Cowboys like a cheap rug.

"And the number one sign that
you're attending a redneck
wedding? Rehearsal dinner
held at Hooters!"
-- The John Boy and
Billy Big Show

In article >, Eva Durant
> writes:

>If I would say thanks to anybody, it would be the thousands of
>generation of people who cooperated to make my life
>possible.  Your note is malicious as ever. How would
>you know what my family is upto anyway?
>If you have nothing of value - or at least faintly amusing -
>to say, shut up. As yet again you are starting (continuing)
>with your personal abuse as opposed to a reasoned argument,
>I won't bother reading your post - again.
>
 ac.uk
>
>

Yes, you will continue to read my postings. You can't help but read them.
And I'm not abusing you per se, but your pathetic beliefs, which you
continue to hold and exhort despite ample empirical proof of their
invalidity. I'm not eager to see former apparatchiks like you held to
judgment for their complicity in imposing and maintaining the communist
regime in Hungary, unless their actions involved outright violent
criminality. But I don't see any need to put up with the gassy blatherings
of a Red Bourbon who can neither learn from history nor forget it. You're
an apologist for an appalling regime who deserves to be confronted at
every opportunity.
Sam Stowe

P.S. -- Thanks for ordering me to shut up. That's exactly what I'd expect
from a lock-step Bolshie who can't think for herself. You make my point
for me -- the apple doesn't fall far from the intellectual tree.

"And the number one sign that
you're attending a redneck
wedding? Rehearsal dinner
held at Hooters!"
-- The John Boy and
Billy Big Show

Subject: United Nations Daily Highlights, 96-11-26

DAILY HIGHLIGHTS
Tuesday, 26 November 1996
-
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
_This document is prepared by the Central News Section of the Department
of
Public Information and is updated every week-day at approximately 6:00
PM._

HEADLINES

* Reforms in United Nations must be undertaken with full concurrence and
participation of developing countries - General Assembly is told.
* International Labour Organisation says nearly one billion people around
the world are unemployed or underemployed.
* Committee against Torture calls for establishment of independent
Committee to look into allegations of torture and cruel treatment by
Russian forces and Chechen separatists.
* Disarmament and International Security Committee approves draft text on
Antarctica; provides for demilitarisation and prohibition of nuclear
explosions.
* Economic and Financial Committee says it will ask General Assembly to
call upon United Nations system to explore ways of promoting effective
cooperative arrangements.
* Draft resolution approved by Social, Humanitarian and Cultural Committee
asks General Assembly to demand end to human rights violations against
ethnic Albanians in Kosovo.
* Systematic violation of human rights in Israeli occupied territories has
endangered peace process and stability of Middle East - Special Political
and Decolonisation Committee is told.
-
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
The representative of Indonesia, Ambassador Nugroho Wisnumurti, has told
the General Assembly that reforms in the United Nations system must be
undertaken with the full concurrence and participation of the developing
countries, which constituted a majority of the membership.

He said it was of pivotal importance that the General Assembly, the
highest
deliberative and decision-making organ, function effectively, focusing on
major issues of political significance.

Speaking on behalf of the members of the Caribbean Community (CARICOM),
the
representative of Jamaica said those countries would like to see the
universal nature and democratic character of the Assembly preserved. She
said steps should be taken to enhance the capacity of the Assembly and its
subsidiary bodies to provide clear and coherent policy direction.

The Assembly was meeting at the time to consider the strengthening of the
United Nations system.
                    -----------------------------------
The International Labour Organisation (ILO) says nearly one billion people
around the world, approximately 30% of the entire global work force, were
unemployed or under-employed in industrialised and developing countries
alike.

In its report, World Employment 1996/97, the ILO described the global
employment situation as grim. It warned that the growing numbers of
working
poor risked aggravating the social and economic ills caused by high
jobless
rates.

The Organisation said it believed that nothing short of a renewed
international commitment to full employment was required to reverse the
poverty, unemployment and under-employment now prevailing in many parts of
the world.
                    -----------------------------------
The Committee against Torture has completed its two-week session in Geneva
which reviewed reports from six States parties to the Convention against
Torture and other Cruel, Inhuman and Degrading Treatment or Punishment.

Among other actions, the experts called for the establishment of an
independent committee to look into allegations of torture and other cruel
treatment by Russian forces and Chechen separatists in the ongoing
conflict
in the south of the Russian Federation.

They also urged that allegations of ill-treatment of detainees in the
Republic of Korea be fully investigated. The experts further noted with
concern that, in the course of an intensive battle against terrorism, the
Government of Algeria was once again being accused of acts of torture.
                    -----------------------------------
The General Assembly would recognise that the 1959 Antarctic Treaty, which
provides for, among other things, the demilitarisation of Antarctica,
prohibition of nuclear explosions, and disposal of nuclear waste, was in
furtherance of the purposes and principles of the United Nations Charter.

Under the terms of a draft resolution approved by the First Committee
(Disarmament and International Security) the Assembly would recall that
States carrying out scientific activities in the Antarctic should make
their research available to the international community, and enhance
access
to such data by the international scientific community and specialized
agencies of the United Nations system.
                    -----------------------------------
The General Assembly would call upon the United Nations system to continue
to study possible ways of promoting more effective cooperative
arrangements
between land-locked States in Central Asia and their transit neighbours.

By the terms of one of the three draft resolutions approved by the Second
Committee (Economic and Financial), the Assembly would also encourage a
more supportive role by the donor community.

It would invite donor countries and multilateral financial and development
institutions to provide newly independent and land-locked developing
States
in the region, and their transit neighbours, with appropriate financial
and
technical assistance to improve the transit environment.
                    -----------------------------------
The General Assembly would demand the authorities of the Federal Republic
of Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro) to immediately end human rights
violations against the ethnic Albanian population in Kosovo, according to
the terms of a draft resolution introduced to the Third Committee (Social,
Humanitarian and Cultural).

The Assembly would demand the authorities, among other things, revoke
discriminatory legislation; release political prisoners; stop the
persecution of political leaders and members of human rights
organisations.

Member States would be called on to make further national and
international
efforts to remove obstacles to the realization of the right to
development,
according to terms of another text introduced in the Committee.

It also would call on the Commission on Human Rights to continue making
proposals through the Economic and Social Council on future action,
particularly practical measures to implement the Declaration on the Right
to Development.
                    -----------------------------------
The systematic violation of human rights in the Israeli occupied
territories
has endangered the peace process and stability of the Middle East,
speakers
told the Fourth Committee (Special Political and Decolonisation), as it
began consideration of the report of the Special Committee to Investigate
Israeli Practices.

Introducing the report, covering the period from 18 August 1995 to 20
September 1996, the Special Committee Chairman said it documented
practices
that reflected "a culture of sadism."

The observer for Palestine said Israel must "end its manoeuvres aimed at
destroying the agreements reached, and comply with its contractual
obligations under those agreements." She said there obviously could not be
a peace process and Israeli settlements at the same time.

The representative of Israel said Israelis and Palestinians had assumed
responsibility to bring an end to conflict through dialogue and face to
face negotiations.
-
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
_For information purposes only - - not an official record_
>From the United Nations home page at http://www.un.org, 

------------------------------

End of undh-digest V1 #118
**************************

Subject: Kosova Daily Report #1019, 96-11-26

Kosova Information Center
KOSOVA DAILY REPORT # 1019
Prishtina, 26 November 1996

[01]  President Berisha of Albania and President Rugova of Kosova Meet in
Tirana
[02]  Three Days Off for Schools in Kosova
[03]  Serbian Police Tortures Albanian Repatriated from Austria
[04]  Unidentified Persons Demolish the Only Albanian School in Rozhaje
[05]  Two Albanian Activists Harassed by the Serbian Police

__________________________________________________________________________
________

[01]  President Berisha of Albania and President Rugova of Kosova Meet in
Tirana

President of the Republic of Albania Dr Sali Berisha met Monday in
Tirana with President of the Republic of Kosova Dr. Ibrahim Rugova,
the Albanian ATA news agency reported, quoting sources from
President Berisha's press and information office.

The two presidents discussed at length about the developments in
Albania and the situation in Kosova.
President Rugova reiterated his satisfaction over the results of
the Albanian local elections, held last month, which affirmed the
free will of Albanians, and congratulated President Berisha on the
progress of reforms in Albania.

Presidents Berisha and Rugova expressed their great concern over
the situation in Kosova and noted the important role of the U.S
Information Office in Prishtina, as well as the U.S. Congress bill
which makes the relations of the United States with Belgrade
conditional on the resolution of the Kosova issue.
They said they saw the further engagement of the European Union
(EU) essential, adding that opening of an EU representative or
information office in Prishtina would be an important factor of
stability. Both Presidents would like to see the Russian Federation
contribute to the solution of the Kosova issue, President Berisha's
press office said.

The Albanian President reiterated his position on the Accord on
Education [signed by Kosovar President Rugova and the Serbian
President Milosevic on 1 September, KIC] as a step forward towards
the normalization of the life in the field of education of Albanian
pupils and students.

Both Presidents stressed that operation of the Parliament and other
institutions in Kosova are important factors of stability, which
contribute to the peaceful solution of the Kosova issue, ATA
reported, adding that they assessed as very important the
liberalization of the free movement of people and goods in the
region, as well as opening of new border crossing points and free
inter border trade.
President Berisha of Albania and President Rugova of Kosova
reiterated their joint stance that dialogue between Prishtina and
Belgrade, in the presence of a third party, should be pursued so as
to secure a peaceful solution to the Kosova issue.

[02]  Three Days Off for Schools in Kosova

The Ministry of Education of the Republic of Kosova said on the
occasion of 28 November -  the Albanian National Flag Day - 28, 29
and 30 November will be days off for all schools, the University,
as well as the other education institutions in Kosova.
The Kosova Education Ministry extends its warmest congratulates on
the Flag Day to pupils, students, and teachers.

[03]  Serbian Police Tortures Albanian Repatriated from Austria

A Kosova Albanian, Ismail Ademi, repatriated from Austria in mid-
November was reported tortured by the Serbian police.
The LDK Information Commission in Vitia said that Ismail Ademi,
originally from Mugilla village, was repatriated by the Austrian
authorities on 17 November. He was initially handed over to the
Hungarian authorities, to finally end up in the hands of the
Serbian police.

Mr. Ademi was held at a Serbian police station in Vojvodina from
3:00 a.m. till 10 o'clock of 17 November, tortured during the whole
time and threatened with liquidation on accusation that he had
fought against Serbs in Croatia in 1991.
Ismail Ademi deserted the former Yugoslav Army (JNA) in 1991, the
Commission concluded.

[04]  Unidentified Persons Demolish the Only Albanian School in Rozhaje

Unidentified persons have recently broken into and demolished the
elementary school building at Dacaj village in Rozhaj&, a
municipality in Montenegro bordering on Kosova. Unidentified
burglars broke doors and windows and stole equipment of the school,
the only Albanian-language school in the Rozhaj& district.
The Democratic League of Albanians in Montenegro (LDMZ) said it was
the fifth time the school was broken into.
The Montenegrin police, though notified every time, has done
nothing to track down the perpetrators.

[05]  Two Albanian Activists Harassed by the Serbian Police

Abdullah Ymeri, former activist with the local Financial Council,
was summoned to report to the Serbian police station in Vitia on
Monday.

He was reported held in custody for over two hours and interrogated
about his activities with the Council.
Meanwhile, today (Tuesday), Salih Klinaku, secretary of the
Albanian National Party (UNIKOMB) branch in Vushtrri, and activist
with the local Financial Council, was summoned to report to the
Serbian police station in Vushtrri.
Mr. Klinaku was reported held for a couple of hours and
interrogated about his political activity.


------------------------------

End of kosovo-digest V1 #147
****************************

At 11:11 PM 11/27/96 GMT, Sam Stowe, in "Re: HAPPY THANKSGIVING!", wrote to
Eva Durant:

<snip>
"Yes, you will continue to read my postings. You can't help but read them.
And I'm not abusing you per se, but your pathetic beliefs, which you
continue to hold and exhort despite ample empirical proof of their
invalidity. I'm not eager to see former apparatchiks like you held to
judgment for their complicity in imposing and maintaining the communist
regime in Hungary, unless their actions involved outright violent
criminality. But I don't see any need to put up with the gassy blatherings
of a Red Bourbon who can neither learn from history nor forget it. You're
an apologist for an appalling regime who deserves to be confronted at
every opportunity."
Sam Stowe

And you, likewise.

By the mid-Nineties 1.5 million Americans were in jail: that's 373 per
100,000.  And that figure is more than double what it was 15 years ago.

Today, 5.1 million Americans are in jail or under judicial supervision.
That's triple the figures of 1980.

Today, the income of 75 million Americans is lower than it was in 1966.
Eighteen per cent live under the poverty line.

Between 1929 and 1969 the inequality gap between the rich and the poor
shrank continually.  Since then it has been continually widening.

The quality of education is in decline.  And I won't even touch American
style medicare.

A conservative(!!!) American historian, Edward Luttwak, says that if present
trends continue, the United States will be a Third World country be 2020.
(Le Monde, 5 June 1995,11)

Meanwhile, American-Hungarians like Peter Soltesz are wetting their pants in
joy now that American style mega-malls are opening in Hungary.

Oh joy!  Oh progress!

Joe Szalai

"Success is somebody else's failure. Success is the American Dream we can
keep dreaming because most people in most places, including thirty million
of ourselves, live wide awake in the terrible reality of poverty."
            Ursula K. Le Guin

Here is a news item which might be of interest to those who are
interested in the Tocsik affair, or rather who read Karen Dunn Skinner's
piece on morality and contract in Hungarian law.

>Semmis a Tocsik-szerzodes? (NSZ)
>
>A Legfobb Ugyeszseg keresetlevelben keri a Fovarosi Birosagot, hogy az
>APV Rt. es dr.  Tocsik Marta kozotti szerzodest nyilvanitsa semmisse.
>Dr.  Gyori Kalman legfobb ugyesz elmondta, a polgari torvenykonyv
>szerint semmis az a szerzodes, amely jogszabalyba utkozik, vagy ha az
>nyilvanvaloan a jo erkolcsbe utkozik.  A jogszabaly feljogositja az
>ugyeszseget, hogy ilyen keresetet inditson, a kozerdekben okozott
>serelem megszuntetesere.  A keresetlevel tartalmazza az ugyeszseg
>allaspontjat abban is, hogy miert utkozik jogszabalyba es nyilvanvaloan
>a jo erkolcsbe is a szerzodes.  Ennek reszleteirol azonban majd a birosag
>ertesiti a ket alperest.

        In brief: the Chief Prosecutor's Office filed a claim with the
Budapest Court and asked the court to annull the contract between the APV
and Marta Tocsik. Kalman Gyori, the chief prosecutor, explained that
according to the civil code a contract is null and void if it is contrary to
the rule of law or morality.

        Eva Balogh

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>Subject:       Re: To everybody
>From:  Joe Szalai >
>Date:  Tue, 26 Nov 1996 19:43:17 -0500
>
>At 03:24 AM 11/23/96 GMT, Sam Stowe wrote:
>
><snip>
>>I don't think you're a commie. I just think you're a doctrinaire
left-wing
>>wienie who can't think out of the box. Nineteen sixty-eight is over
with,
>>Joe. Let it go. But you do have a good heart and that counts for a hell
of
>>a lot with me.
>
>Tsk!  tsk!  You're the wienie, big guy.  If you knew anything about '68
>you'd know that it was anything but doctrinaire.  I guess they didn't
teach
>you in high school that the word "alternative" was invented in the '60s.
>Why, even Prague happened in '68.  All this sounds very "doctrinaire" to
>you, don't it?

Prague...ah, yes! I remember how all you socialist advocates of peace,
love and understanding flocked to western Bohemia to take up arms against
a sea of Soviet soldiers. Joe, you talk a good game, but your side's track
record of actually doing anything constructive sucks.

>>>So, are you all ready for a good debate?  Can you let go of your
>>ideologies?
>>
>>You're the one who flails around the minute he has to let go of
>>ideologies. Learn to dog paddle for yourself before you try to teach me
>>how to back stroke.
>
>I'm sure you're pretty good at stroking already, Sam, so all I'll have to
do
>is show you the weakness of your ideology.

Since I'm admittedly all over the map when it comes to political tenets,
you're going to be reproducing the old saw about keeping an idiot
entertained by putting him in a round room and telling him to urinate in a
corner at a higher intellectual level.
Sam Stowe

>
>Joe Szalai
>
>



"And the number one sign that
you're attending a redneck
wedding? Rehearsal dinner
held at Hooters!"
-- The John Boy and
Billy Big Show

At 07:17 26/11/96 -0500, Joe the Prophet of Doom wrote:

>Thanksgiving may be a non-sectarian holiday but it's still a religious day.
>Mother Nature does not require such days.

No, but mankind does. They fulfill a universal human need for meaning in the
potentially meaningless vastness of the universe and time.

 I live in rural Ontario and I'm
>surranded by hundreds of thousands of acres of prime agricultural land.  The
>Christian farmers (and yes, they are Christian!) around here are still
>subduing the land with tons of chemicals.

You're stereotyping, Joe. I thought that was anathema to your belief system!

What about the Mennonites who farm traditionally? I don't think there are
any more *Christian* farmers around than they, and they farm organically!

  And once a year, after raping and
>killing the soil, they give thanks to god for the bounty.  Such hypocrisy!!!

See, not everybody is hypocritical. Of course, the people you are talking
about do not see themselves as raping and killing the soil, either. In fact,
I'll bet many of them are even socialists, Joe, like the wheat farmers in
Saskatchewan. They think they are participating in a Green Revolution which
is enabling them to help feed the hungry of the earth.
>
>Joe Szalai

p.s. Tell me how much more the godless Soviets respected the soil - and look
the area around the Aral Sea, which has lost one-third of its area due to
being diverted for irrigation, etc. And diseases are running rampant in the
vicinity, and the average lifespan in the area is now below 60 years of age.

The abuse of the environment is not an exclusive custom of Christians, by
any means.

Tisztelettel,

Johanne/Janka
Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 

At 01:20 PM 11/30/96 -0400, Johanne wrote, answering Joe Szalai:

>p.s. Tell me how much more the godless Soviets respected the soil - and look
>the area around the Aral Sea, which has lost one-third of its area due to
>being diverted for irrigation, etc. And diseases are running rampant in the
>vicinity, and the average lifespan in the area is now below 60 years of age.
>
>The abuse of the environment is not an exclusive custom of Christians, by
>any means.

        As the matter of fact the soviets and the east european communists
paid absolutely no attention to the environment. It is pitiful to look
around in Hungary. The air is polluted practically everywhere; the water is
foul; untreated sewage is poured into rivers; Lake Balaton is a mess. Just
lately there is strong evidence that in a village in the county of Baranya
lethal chemicals are seeping into the soil and the water, while the minister
of the environment tells us that everything is just fine and dandy. Article
after article could be read about all the children in East Germany, the
Czech Republic, Poland, Slovakia and Hungary about who have asthma and who
have all sorts of disabilities as a result of the pollution. We don't even
know yet the human waste which will result from their crimes against nature.

        As for all those "Christian" farmers Joe is talking about--first of
all, until fairly recently we didn't even know what the accumulated effect
of chemical fertilizers will be. But certainly now that we are more aware of
the dangers we are also more careful.

        Eva Balogh

>Five nations outperformed the United States in math and science:
>   Japan, Korea, Singapore, the Czech Republic and Hungary.
>===
>Hungary to Shop, American Style
>
>Opening of 2 Malls in Budapest Heralds New Retailing Era in Eastern Europe
>====
>
>1- glad to see that
>2- it is megamall time! how will this effect the small(er) merchants --
>will they survive? can they survive?? How long will these mega-malls last
>in HU?
>
>Peter
 I am extremly happy,that you have now nothing else to worry about,this
sounds too good to be true.
Andy.>
>

At 11:49 PM 11/28/96 GMT, Sam Stowe wrote:

<snip>
>>Tsk!  tsk!  You're the wienie, big guy.  If you knew anything about '68
>>you'd know that it was anything but doctrinaire.  I guess they didn't
>teach
>>you in high school that the word "alternative" was invented in the '60s.
>>Why, even Prague happened in '68.  All this sounds very "doctrinaire" to
>>you, don't it?
>
>Prague...ah, yes! I remember how all you socialist advocates of peace,
>love and understanding flocked to western Bohemia to take up arms against
>a sea of Soviet soldiers. Joe, you talk a good game, but your side's track
>record of actually doing anything constructive sucks.

And what, pray tell, did "your side" do in Prague?  Run for the atlas to see
where it was located?  "My side" was in the streets of Budapest in '56, in
Prague in '68, in Kent State University in '70, in Beijing in '89, and in
Belgrade today.  Meanwhile, "your side" is watching football on TV.  As for
sucking, lets just leave that to individual taste.  OK?

>>>>So, are you all ready for a good debate?  Can you let go of your
>>>ideologies?
>>>
>>>You're the one who flails around the minute he has to let go of
>>>ideologies. Learn to dog paddle for yourself before you try to teach me
>>>how to back stroke.
>>
>>I'm sure you're pretty good at stroking already, Sam, so all I'll have to
>do
>>is show you the weakness of your ideology.
>
>Since I'm admittedly all over the map when it comes to political tenets,
>you're going to be reproducing the old saw about keeping an idiot
>entertained by putting him in a round room and telling him to urinate in a
>corner at a higher intellectual level.

I can tell you're getting nervous.  By the way, being all over the map when
it comes to political tenents is a sign of confusion, not strength.

Joe Szalai

At 12:54 PM 11/30/96 -0500,  Eva Balogh wrote

<snip>
>        As the matter of fact the soviets and the east european communists
>paid absolutely no attention to the environment. It is pitiful to look
>around in Hungary. The air is polluted practically everywhere; the water is
>foul; untreated sewage is poured into rivers; Lake Balaton is a mess. Just
>lately there is strong evidence that in a village in the county of Baranya
>lethal chemicals are seeping into the soil and the water, while the minister
>of the environment tells us that everything is just fine and dandy. Article
>after article could be read about all the children in East Germany, the
>Czech Republic, Poland, Slovakia and Hungary about who have asthma and who
>have all sorts of disabilities as a result of the pollution. We don't even
>know yet the human waste which will result from their crimes against nature.

And now the Third World, in a desperate attempt to have what we have, will
commit the same crimes against nature.  And often with the help of polluting
western companies who go there to escape environmental regulation in the West.

>        As for all those "Christian" farmers Joe is talking about--first of
>all, until fairly recently we didn't even know what the accumulated effect
>of chemical fertilizers will be. But certainly now that we are more aware of
>the dangers we are also more careful.

Are we?

Joe Szalai

At 01:20 PM 11/30/96 -0400, Johanne L. Tournier wrote:

>At 07:17 26/11/96 -0500, Joe the Prophet of Doom wrote:
>
>>Thanksgiving may be a non-sectarian holiday but it's still a religious day.
>>Mother Nature does not require such days.
>
>No, but mankind does. They fulfill a universal human need for meaning in the
>potentially meaningless vastness of the universe and time.

Only those who are scared by the "meaningless vastness of the universe and
time" need it.  I'm not scared of it, and yet I'm human.  By the way, I'm
always in favour of holidays, regardless of the pretext.

> I live in rural Ontario and I'm
>>surranded by hundreds of thousands of acres of prime agricultural land.  The
>>Christian farmers (and yes, they are Christian!) around here are still
>>subduing the land with tons of chemicals.
>
>You're stereotyping, Joe. I thought that was anathema to your belief system!

If the majority still do it, am I stereotyping?

>What about the Mennonites who farm traditionally? I don't think there are
>any more *Christian* farmers around than they, and they farm organically!

You're quite right.  However, the Mennonites are the exception that prove
the rule.  And, by the way, it's only the "old order" Mennonites who farm
organically.  Most of the Mennonites in this area do not belong to the old
order.

>  And once a year, after raping and
>>killing the soil, they give thanks to god for the bounty.  Such hypocrisy!!!
>
>See, not everybody is hypocritical. Of course, the people you are talking
>about do not see themselves as raping and killing the soil, either. In fact,
>I'll bet many of them are even socialists, Joe, like the wheat farmers in
>Saskatchewan. They think they are participating in a Green Revolution which
>is enabling them to help feed the hungry of the earth.

Yes, and when the Green Revolution started that's exactly what they thought
they were doing.  Since then, we've learnet about the consequences of
excessive chemical use, but those socialist farmers of Saskatchewan carry on
with little concern for the environment.  The problem is that we'll all pay
for their madness.  Eventually.

>p.s. Tell me how much more the godless Soviets respected the soil - and look
>the area around the Aral Sea, which has lost one-third of its area due to
>being diverted for irrigation, etc. And diseases are running rampant in the
>vicinity, and the average lifespan in the area is now below 60 years of age.

Oh Johanne, Johanne, please get off your high horse before you get
emotionally attached to it.  I'm not making a socialist vs capitalist
argument here.  Anyone who can't see the environmental damage in the former
"socialist" countries is either blind or stupid.

>The abuse of the environment is not an exclusive custom of Christians, by
>any means.

No, it is not.  The only reason I 'centered them out' is because of the easy
reference to "subduing" the land that's in the bible.  If I were familiar
with other holy books that encouraged it's adherents to 'subdue' the land I
would have picked on them too.

Joe Szalai

I hope Johanne will forgive me to enter in her debate with Joe
(Joe obviously won't, but......):

>>> I live in rural Ontario and I'm
>>>surranded by hundreds of thousands of acres of prime agricultural land.  The
>>>Christian farmers (and yes, they are Christian!) around here are still
>>>subduing the land with tons of chemicals.
>>
>>You're stereotyping, Joe. I thought that was anathema to your belief system!
>
>If the majority still do it, am I stereotyping?
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
.....
>>>  And once a year, after raping and
>>>killing the soil, they give thanks to god for the bounty.  Such hypocrisy!!!

So if the majority of the hungarian gypsies don't have a regular job and
earn their money either with illegal activities or through the wellfare
system, am I stereotyping if I conclude they don't like to work (or worse,
they are lasy). If I am, why?

>>The abuse of the environment is not an exclusive custom of Christians, by
>>any means.
>
>No, it is not.  The only reason I 'centered them out' is because of the easy
>reference to "subduing" the land that's in the bible.  If I were familiar
>with other holy books that encouraged it's adherents to 'subdue' the land I
>would have picked on them too.

As far as I know the Book of Genesis is part of the Jewish and Moshlim
scriptures, too. So, you have picked on them, just you were not aware
of it. So, may I call you antisemite now?

J.Zs

On Tue Nov 26 1996 in HUNGARY #859  [United States]
wrote:

MZ >I am quite sure by my own experience that there was much pressure used
MZ >to force people to enter the party before the fifties, especially
MZ >before '48, the "unification" the communist party and the Social
MZ >Democrats.

EB>   I don't have a book on hand which makes any reference to this
EB> question but I am still doubtful simply because the parties jelously guarde
d
EB> their share of the power. Occasionally, intraparty affairs bordered on the
EB> ridiculous. For example, movie theaters were allotted to different parties:
EB> X movie theater "belonged" to the smallholders, Y to the communists, and X
EB> to the social democrats!!

It shows to me that there are events of the so-called coalition era
(45-49)  which can still not be found in books. Maybe they can be
found in memoirs or oral history archives.  I wrote about facts of my
own experience, not speculations.

Sure the parties tried to defend jealously their share of power.
However, the conditions were not equal for all the parties. The
communist party had all the support of the Soviets.  The so-called
"salami-tactics" ("szalami-taktika") of Rakosi which sliced gradually
the so-called "right-wingers" from the Smallholders party and the
Social democrats, started immediately after the '45 elections. Many
Social democrats and Smallholders were put into prison or forced into
exile. So after the '45 elections neither the Smallholders nor the
social democrats were in a very good position to guard their share of
power.

EB> by October 1945 there were half a million members of the Communist party;
EB> the Social Democrats had approximately 350-400,000 members; and the
EB> Smallholders 900,000.

It would be interesting to know e.g. how many people who were members
of the Smallholders party in '45 could be found as members of MKP in
'47 or '48. I suppose there is no official statistics about that.

EB>    Between September 1948 and March 1949 the communists actually
EB> thinned out the ranks of the MDP. Three hundred thousand members
EB> were dismissed from the united party, mostly the right-wing social
EB> democrats were the victims.

"Right-wing social democrats" was one category. Church-goers were
expelled during the purges as "clerical reactionaries" ("klerikalis
reakcios"). Some people were expelled as "ideologically not
sufficiently developed" ("ideologiailag nem eleg fejlett").

EB>    The above might help us to determine whether there was any
EB> pressure to join the party after 1945. My tentative answer is that it is
EB> unlikely and I am basing this opinion on the following:[...]

You can doubt it and find it unlikely, however, I described facts.
The newspaper joke "nem toborzok, csak kenyszeritek" was surely
published before the party unification in '48. Very probably other
references can be found in that time's newspapers, memoirs, etc.

>         I hope the above helps a bit.

And I am glad I could add a little fact to the history of the
coalition times.

Best regards

 Magdolna Zimanyi
 KFKI Research Institute for Particle  Phone: +36-1-175-8257
 and Nuclear Physics                   FAX:   +36-1-169-6567
 Computer Networking Center            E-mail: 
 H-1525 Budapest 114, POB. 49, Hungary URL: http://www.kfki.hu/~mzimanyi
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------

On Fri, 29 Nov 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:

> At 01:58 PM 11/29/96 +0100, Magda Zimanyi wrote:
>
MZ >Sure the parties tried to defend jealously their share of power.
MZ >However, the conditions were not equal for all the parties. The
MZ >communist party had all the support of the Soviets.
>
EB>         Of course, there is no question about the above.
[...]
EB>  Although this is all true but all this doesn't prove that people
EB> were actually forced into the party before 1948-49.

No, it does not prove it. But I did not give these facts as a proof of
forced party membership.  I intended only to give an overall view of
the political climate and to show that the non-communist parties were
not in a very good position to jealously guard their "share of power".

EB> I think the fact that by October 1945 there were half a million communist
EB> party members speaks for itself:

It speaks for itself as far as people are concerned who were party
members already in 1945.  And of course it does not tell anything
about people who were forced to enter later.  At least it is quite
sure for you that the 400 thousand Social Democrats becoming members
of the MDP by the unification did not enter the party voluntarily. (We
saw that many of them were expelled later during the party purges.)

MZ> >You can doubt it and find it unlikely, however, I described facts.
>
EB>         I am simply basing my opinion on numbers.

As you and myself agreed that the use of precise wording is important
I would put it that way: your opinion looks as it is based on
speculation based on numbers. Maybe the facts of that time are not
precisely reflected in the few numbers you cited. I find it
interesting that you simply called the facts I mentioned "not likely"
without looking further in the matter. IMHO if you don't want to
believe me -- I don't know why not -- you could at least believe the
contemporary cartoonist of Szabad Sza'j.  And of course I saw what I
saw and experienced in that time about forcing people into the party.
Maybe this is not documented well enough in that time's written
history. In that case it would be interesting to look up that time's
newspapers and collect people's memories. It could be a more practical
approach listening to facts than simply doubting events you haven't
heard of before and calling them "not likely".

Best regards

 Magdolna Zimanyi
 KFKI Research Institute for Particle  Phone: +36-1-175-8257
 and Nuclear Physics                   FAX:   +36-1-169-6567
 Computer Networking Center            E-mail: 
 H-1525 Budapest 114, POB. 49, Hungary URL: http://www.kfki.hu/~mzimanyi
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------