> Felado : Pannon Jozsef
> Andras,
> where do you get the idea that Bardossy covered up the Ujvidek
> massacres?  From what I read in Dezso Sulyok's memoires, it was the
> army's leadership that engaged in obfuscation to cover up the events.
According to Braham, interpellations were made in both houses of
parliament as early as in January, and Bajcsy-Zsilinszky's memorandum
to Horthy on February 4 1942 specifically names all those responsible
"including Ba1rdossy, who is accused by B-Zs of not taking the
necessary precautions in spite of advance warnings" (my English
translation from the Hungarian edition, pp 178-179).

> As you may recall, there was a smaller scale massacre committed in the
> Vietnam war by American troops (Lt. Kelly's company at My Li (I'm not
> sure of the spelling) that took some time before it was discovered by
> the civil administration.  Lt. Kelly was court marshalled for it, but I
> don't recall the American Prez being called a war criminal for the act.
> Even though the buc also stopped at his desk.
The example is highly relevant, both for similarities and differences.
Unlike in Mi Lai (I'm not sure of the spelling either), the civil
administration learned about the fact almost immediately. So Ba1rdossy
knew, but didn't start proceedings. Ka1llay did.

> > and of course tolerance of lawlessness and
> >vigilantism in the execution of a deportation order that was a crime
> >against humanity even if its intended (as opposed to the actual)
> >subjects were not Hungarian citizens.
>
> Well, how was that different than the Hong Kong British authorities
> forcibly returning the Vietnamese boat people to Vietnam?
This is like the defense offered by Csaba Zolta1ni -- comparison to
some other evil act. The British government's decision was uniformly
condemned by all human rights groups all around the world.  And there
is an absolutely critical difference: the fate of the Vietnamese
returnees was (and I think continues to be) actively monitored to see
that they don't get killed or imprisoned. The Ba1rdossy government
made no effort at monitoring the fate of those expelled.

> Of course I agree that it was wrong to do so (just as returning the
> Vietnamese refugees), but I am just trying to point out that Hungary was
> not doing something unusual and even that was stopped after that one
> deportation until Hungary was occupied by Germany.
You are getting to the core of my problem with Ba1rdossy: it was
under him, not under the preceding and following governments (up to
the German occupation) that such atrocities took place.

> I also agree that if indeed Hungarian citizens were deported, the ones
> who were responsible for that order would have to be judged accordingly.
> But Bardossy only if it could be proven that it was with his knowledge
> and approval.  I have a suspicion, that cases like Putnok may have been
> committed by overzelous local authorities.  I have not seen yet any
> proof of that being the government policy.
For the most part I'm quite certain that you are right and it was
overzelous local authorities.  The point is not that Ba1rdossy personally
ordered them to commit atrocities. The point is that he failed to punish,
or even to initiate proceedings against, those who were proximally
responsible for the atrocities.  Confucius said that the virtue of the
ruler is like wind, the virtue of the small man is like grass -- let the
wind blow over the grass and it's sure to bend that way. Look at the acts
of the small men in there little spheres of power in that period, and you
get a pretty good sense of the overall moral direction of the country that
was imparted by the leaders. Feje1to3l bu3zlik a hal.

Andra1s Kornai

Greetings Zoli,

I will signoff from this list. Is there a mailing list about Hungary which
is not
connected to usenet with lower mail volume ?

Cheers,

Mehmet Kurtkaya

> There is bit.listserv.hungary, but many sites don't carry it; it is also
>being crossposted to soc.culture.magyar - see the FAQ there or in
>news.answers.
>
>--
> Zoli , keeper of <http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/>;
> <'finger '>
> NOTE: spamsters and bulk emailers see 'X-Policy*:' in the
>header for the charges to be imposed for net abuse!
>
>

There is no real problem of them being in Hungary (as long as they pay
their way - and a little extra!); though it really depends on how many they
are going to send to Pecs. What`s the population of Pecs. 80,000? If they
are going to send any large numbers, which I don`t doubt they will, the
population will feel a little overwhelmed by them to say the list - feelings
of what it was like while there were huge numbers of Soviets will probably
return.

    Lets hope they don`t forget to leave in the near future!



Karcsi

>

> at home but the United States is not Canada. Canada doesn't have global
> responsibilities in the world. The United States does.
>
> Eva Balogh

Could you please spell out for me  these responsibilities,
which belong to the USA, and not to the NATO or the UN.
And the success-rate of past overt and under-cover operations...
thanks.
  (to be put away, for a long time
                             by any future anti-american notions
                                court... )

Dear Colleagues,

This morrning (11/27/95-Monday), the Ambassador of Slovakia, Branislav
Lichardous replies to my letter of a week ago in the New York Times.

He claims, that: "the law does not mandate, that all signs, advertisements
and announcements be in the state language. It is not true that this law
makes it a criminal act for a rabbi to speak Yiddish or Hebrew in a
synagouge, neither obliges a foreign artist to perform exclusively in Slovak
nor presumes criminal sanctions for that matter."

I would like to ask for help from the members of the Hungarian Lobby (HL) in
the following ways:

1) As I obtained my facts from the Hungarian press (not always reliable) and
from Tibor Cseh, who quoted the lecture of a Hungarian MP from Slovakia
(indirect), I would like to ask anybody who is in posession of the actual
text of the law, to post it or E-Mail it to all of us. If I was incorrect, I
want to apologize to the Ambassador. If I was correct, the readers of the NYT
should know it.

2) It is NYT policy that I can not reply to a letter, which replied to mine.
Therefore I ask all of you, to make your own views known to the paper.
(E-Mail:  or Fax: 212-556-3622) It is very important that
they receive hundreds of letters from all over the world, because that will
show them the gravity of this matter.

3) I would like to ask all members of HL to write within 48 hours, (mail not
later than Wednesday) and to try to write in an UNDERSTATED, calm tone,
include in your letter as many facts and as few opinions as possible and
include such personal experiences (of named individuals at stated times and
locations), which the American public can relate to.

4) I would like to ask the leaders of the Hungarian parties in Slovakia to
reply to the claims of the Ambassador and to take advantage of this
opportunity to air their grievences. They should end their letters by stating
what they think the USA government and public can  and should do?

5) I would like to ask the representatives of other minorities, particularly
the leaders of the International Roma Federation to speak up.

With best personal regards: Bela Liptak

Back to the question US soldiers as police, please, which I think is worthy of
comment:

First, I don't think anyone proposed the soldiers go to Pecs or anywhere else i
n
Hungary as police.  If they stage through Hungary on their way to police duties
elsewhere, and if this is welcomed by the Hungarian government, where is the
problem for Hungary.

Second, and I think more important, if these troops are sent to the Balkan
neighbors of Hungary as "police", there is certainly also a reluctance on the
 part of
the senders, which is being publicly debated within the US Government, to accep
t
the police function.  My assumption, however, is that they will be sent, that
 they will
have a police function, and that this function will be undertaken, however
reluctantly, because "police" are precisely what are needed.

Third, it should be clear to all who are watching the internal US debate over
 sending
US troops to the Balkans, that many US citizens harbor a certain level or
resentment of  the fact that US troops appear to be a necessary ingredient to
 the
solution of this European dispute.  We also harbor a certain level of resentmen
t
 to
the common assumption that sending US troops to world trouble spots implies a
desire on our part to police those parts of the world.  As a long-term insider,
 I want
to assure all that nothing is further from the truth.

Tom Wukitsch

Szia,

There's a video distributor out in California called European Video
Distributors, which has a pretty decent size catalogue of Hungarian movies
ranging from golden oldies from the 30's to more recent stuff. The quality is
great, but I don't know off hand the phone # or address, but they advertise a
lot in the Amerikai Magyar Nepszava, especially now, being the Christmas season
is on us. As far as music is concerned: a few years back there was a
Hungaroton, Qualiton, and Pepita mail order distributor in New York, but I
don't know if they even exist anymore. Can anyone shed light on this? ;->

Koszi szepen,
Czifra Jancsi
 john_czifra @ shi.com

>
> Darren Purcell wrote,
>
> >I am siding with Joe Pannon on this one Szalai ur, I chose to ignore the
> >pliceman remark, but now that J.P has brought it up, I will just say he
> >wasn't alone in the thought
> >
> >Szervusz
> >
> >Darren Purcell
>
> Joe Pannon also called me arrogant, and, in a back handed way, an
> anti-semite.  Do you agree with all that or just his comment that I am
> anti-American?

NO, not an anti-Semite. Arrogant...no. Not fond of AMerican's who feel
that they have the might and right to use it, that one I would say.


>
> What is so wrong with calling American GIs cops?  If some of my neighbours
> were having a conflict, we may chose to mediate or to bring peace in some
> way.  If our efforts fail and the conflict continues what do we do?  Well,
> we usually call the cops.  Why is this analogy such a red herring to
> Americans?  Do you not like your cops?

I ahve never liked the term world police, because that implies that there
is a rule of the world to be enforced, and all we have today is competing
ways of looking at it. I won't say that the US is not an empire of
sorts...economically it is and even by force it is. Whether it is the
worst empire in the world is another question

However, I do believe we have some business in being there. I hope the
Canadians will serve as well, since they are a valuable fighting force . I
wish Europe had done more in it's own
backyard but since it didn't someone should try and get some results. If
it has to be the U.S. so be it. But I wouldn't sweat it, if Gramm and
Dole have their way, (they forget how valuable a war for oil is, not
for humanity)

As far as slinging the szar, go ahead. This list is an open forum.

Szervusztok

Puski-Corvin in New York will send you their catalogue of books, CD's and
NTSC(USA) videos.  I found that you get a MUCH BETTER price and much better
selection of videos from the European Video Distributors.  I faxed a request
for  their catalogue and 2 days later I've received a large 500+ magyar film
catalog along with a free sample tape.

Phone Numbers:

Puski-Corvin: (212)

European Video:

On Mon, 27 Nov 1995, Mehmet Kurtkaya wrote:

> Greetings Zoli,
>
> I will signoff from this list. Is there a mailing list about Hungary which
> is not connected to usenet with lower mail volume ?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Mehmet Kurtkaya

Hi Mehmet,
There is the Hungarian American List >, from The
University of Maryland. Mainly news, lobbying and event announcements -
mostly in English. Highly civilized, with no cenzorship and no
moderation. You can take a look at it under the
<http://mineral.umd.edu/hungary/>; WWW address ( the information in the
Hungarian FAQ has nothing to do with the actual list, please, disregard
it). If you do not have access to the WWW, the digest of the list is
regularly sent to the <news:soc.culture.magyar> Usenet group. You might
want to consider reading it before you decide whether to sign up or
not. It is majordomo based, for more info, please, send an empty mail to
the > address.
Regards,
Gotthard

--

>> at home but the United States is not Canada. Canada doesn't have global
>> responsibilities in the world. The United States does.
>>
>> Eva Balogh
>
>Could you please spell out for me  these responsibilities,
>which belong to the USA, and not to the NATO or the UN.
>And the success-rate of past overt and under-cover operations...
>thanks.


Eva Durant's sophistry again - so unenglish! The parties directly involved in
the conflict insist on US involvement. The agreement is hammered out in Ohio.
The European mediators have intellectually capitulated after so many  costly
mistakes. The UN/NATO won't budge without direct US involvement. The Russians
swallow the utter humiliation of accepting the US role as a last recourse.
The US Congress, press and public are in a profound discussion about the long
term wisdom of such an involvement.....

Yet Eva Durant would like to have it spelled out that the involvement of the
US is restricted to troops serving under UN/NATO command. As mercenaries of
the World Police, so to say. Contracted for their superior skills in
achieving their goals by non-aggressive means, no doubt.

Of course. Daft of us to think otherwise.

-------------------------------------
Name: tiha von ghyczy
E-mail: 
Date: 11/27/95
Charlottesville, Va.
-------------------------------------

Prof. Liptak writes:

>This morrning (11/27/95-Monday), the Ambassador of Slovakia, Branislav
>Lichardous replies to my letter of a week ago in the New York Times.
>
>He claims, that: "the law does not mandate, that all signs, advertisements
>and announcements be in the state language.

He goes on to admit that this whole campaign by the Hungarian League was
launched without direct knowledge of the Slovakian language law:

>1) As I obtained my facts from the Hungarian press (not always reliable) and
>from Tibor Cseh, who quoted the lecture of a Hungarian MP from Slovakia
>(indirect), I would like to ask anybody who is in posession of the actual
>text of the law,

The Hungarian League has aked the participants of this list to denounce the
Slovakian Government publicly as "fascist" for passing a law which
representatives of the League have not bothered to study.

Putting it in the mildest manner I can think of: this is scandalous.

It is scandalous to invoke our help and the public use of our names
negligently and without proper scrutiny. More importantly, it is
incomprehensible how sane people can formulate a denounciation full of
indignant righteousness and outright slander (the word "fascist") based on
hear say.

No wonder that hatred is escalating in the region.
-------------------------------------
Name: tiha von ghyczy
E-mail: 
Date: 11/27/95
Charlottesville, Va.
-------------------------------------

Reply to:   RE>*** HUNGARY *** #498

Please remove me from this subscription list. My hard disk crashes every time
I try to retrieve the enclosures

--------------------------------------
Date: 11/22/95 9:52 PM
To: Lisa Kolonay
From: HIX HUNGARY
!!! Original message was too large.
!!!
!!! It is contained in the enclosure whose name
!!! is the same as the subject of this message.
!!!
!!! A preview of the message follows:

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Issue____________: *** HUNGARY 498 ***
Date_____________: Thu Nov 23 00:44:10 EST 1995
Publisher________: Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
Disclaimer_______: Authors bear full responsibility for their articles.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Send-Articles-To_: >
Subscribe________: >
Unsubscribe______: >
Help_____________: >
Supervisor_______: >
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
HIXWEB___________: http://hix.mit.edu/friss2/  or  http://hix.mit.edu/
ARENA____________: telnet hix.hungary.com
HUDIR____________: http://www.hungary.com/hudir/
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

Tartalomjegyzek:
----------------

> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: "Fight started when he returned the punch" ( 117 sor )

> Felado :  [Guinea-Bissau]
> Temakor: Tortenelmi Szemle ( 232 sor )

> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Jewishness on the net/brain ( 19 sor )

> Felado : Pannon Jozsef
> Temakor: Re: Forradalom/szabadsagharc ( 18 sor )

> Felado : Pannon Jozsef
> Temakor: Re: Contacting Americans in Hungary ( 16 sor )

> Felado : Pannon Jozsef
> Temakor: American troops in Hungary? ( 28 sor )

> Felado : Karoly Sandor Juhasz
> Temakor: Re: Becsbe Csoorival ( 8 sor )

> Felado :  [Canada]
> Temakor: Re: Forradalom/szabadsagharc ( 68 sor )

> Felado :  [Canada]
> Temakor: Re: Becsbe Csoorival ( 14 sor )

> Felado : Eva S. Balogh
> Temakor: Laszlo Bardossy ( 59 sor )

> Felado :  [Canada]
> Temakor: Idealism rooted in history ( 43 sor )

> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Slovak Language Law ( 14 sor )

> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Half a Century Ago ( 75 sor )

> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Half a Century Ago ( 75 sor )

> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Hungarian email pointer (Version: 0.90, Last-modified:  ( 96 sor )

> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Re: Half a Century Ago ( 32 sor )

> Felado :  [Australia]
> Temakor: Re: (no subject given) ( 7 sor )

> Felado :  [Australia]
> Temakor: Re: Ah, vilagos nekem, ahol a gz van! ( 11 sor )

> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Re: Contacting Americans in Hungary ( 15 sor )

> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Re: Contacting Americans in Hungary ( 14 sor )

> Felado : Pellionisz Andras
> Temakor: Halloween, revisited ( 27 sor )

> Felado : Pannon Jozsef
> Temakor: Re: Laszlo Bardossy ( 15 sor )

> Felado :  [Hungary]
> Temakor: KADAR FORGIVENESS p.3 ( 72 sor )

> =======================================================
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: "Fight started when he returned the punch" ( 117 sor )
> Idopont: Wed Nov 22 03:41:38 EST 1995 HUNGARY #498
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

It is pathetic what is going on in this list. Let me say first that
I was truly saddened to see the very angry letter by Janos Kiss. He may
or may not be right about all his information on Kornai.I don't know.

However, it is quite likely that the provocation by Kornai, to abuse
semantics as an excuse to keep badmouthing & jokingly ridiculing Hungarian
Freedom Fight (and hero Freedom Fighters!), was aimed at provoking exactly
the kind of vehement responses - that we now read from Kiss. In order that
*responding* angry guys could be "censored" - while *original provocators*
go unpunished! Not only this "the whole fight started when he fought back"
style strategy will not work, but a dangerous process can easily escalate.
This is the danger of provocation by extremists. They start a snowball
which occasionally becomes impossible to stop. Extremist craziness must be
stemmed as they play with fire.

I am forwarding the Omri brief about the Slovak language law. This is of
course not the actual text of the law, only its summary; and the actual
interpretation, implementation, court challenges, etc., are yet to
come.The fact that the use of minority languages is to be regulated by
other law(s) is not at all reassuring; it would have been easier to
challenge this law, or its implementation, if those provisions were a
part of it.

Even so, it is clear that Bela Liptak has little for which he needs to
apologize to the Slovak ambassador. The language law outlined below is
comprehensively oppressive. On the other hand, while the way he directed
the HL is not quite 'scandalous', his revelation of the way he gathers
his facts is not conducive to building trust in the reliability of the
source.

The brief below, or the contents thereof, were accessible to Liptak. I
sent them to Tibor Cseh several days ago. Liptak's blaming Cseh and
others for his own shortcoming is not very nice.

One would expect better judgment from a fellow professor...



Louis Elteto
Portland State University

 OMRI Program Brief

Slovak Parliament Approves Language Law
16 November 1995, Brief No. 32 by Sharon Fisher

After a full day of emotional discussion during which 174 suggestions for
amendments were proposed,  the Slovak parliament on 15 November approved
a law
on the state language which serves to harm  Slovakia's image abroad, damage
Slovakia's bilateral relations with Hungary, cause further tensions  between
ethnic Slovaks and Hungarians, and drive another wedge between the Slovak
opposition parties.  Although opposition parties had criticized the bill
before
and during the parliamentary debate, a  surprising 108 deputies voted in
favor
of it, while 17 voted against and 17 abstained. Support for the law  came
from
the ruling coalition as well as all but two deputies from the opposition
Democratic Union (DU)  and Party of the Democratic Left (SDL). Hungarian
coalition deputies voted against the bill, while those  from the opposition
Christian Democratic Movement (KDH) abstained.  The parliamentary debate The
passage of the language law by such a big margin can be seen as a victory for
Prime Minister Vladimir  Meciar and his ruling coalition. Coalition
representatives frequently played the nationalist card when  discussing the
bill, calling into mind that the territory which now represents Slovakia was
ruled by  Hungary for 1,000 years. Zora Lazorova, who represents Meciar's
Movement for a Democratic Slovakia  (HZDS), said "anyone who votes
against this
law is against the fulfillment of the Slovaks' desires and  deserves public
contempt." The government even organized a rally outside the parliament
on the
day of  the vote, in an effort to sway opposition deputies. Supporters
who were
bussed in from around the  country sang the national anthem, waved Slovak
flags,
and yelled "Viva Meciar and his government!  Slovakia is ours!"

What may have influenced the vote most was a proposal from HZDS deputy Milan
Secansky that each deputy state his opinion out loud after his name was
called.
The opposition parties  were clearly afraid of being labeled
"anti-Slovak" if
they did not support the bill. Several deputies even  walked out before the
vote, in an effort to avoid making the decision. Explaining her decision
to vote
in  favor of the law which she basically opposed, SDL Deputy Chairwoman
Brigita
Schmoegnerova said "We  would have given [the government] a strong weapon."
According to Culture Minister Ivan Hudec, the state is obliged to create
conditions for every citizen to  master the Slovak language, and he stressed
that the language law is "for the Slovak language, not against  other
languages." But the deputies representing the Hungarian minority do not
agree.
Erno Rozsa said it  is not a law to protect the Slovak language but an
instrument to assimilate minorities which is in conflict  with a whole
series of
international documents. Pal Csaky said the law creates needless tensions in
society,  for which the Hungarian deputies will not carry responsibility. He
suggested that the discussion on the  law be delayed until the December
session,
and he called on the government to put forward a draft law on  the use of
minority languages in public offices by the end of 1995.

Several of the opposition deputies expressed sympathy for the Hungarian
viewpoint during the debate.  Lubomir Fogas of the SDL recommended that
until a
law on the use of minority languages is passed,  minorities should be
allowed to
continue using their own languages in areas where they represent at
least  20%
of the population. Ivan Simko of the KDH stated that while a law on the state
language is needed, it  should not be revenge for the injustices which
occurred
earlier. "It was not today's Hungarians who wronged us," Simko said.
Meanwhile,
some opposition deputies criticized other aspects of the bill. Roman
Kovac of
the DU pointed out that fine for breaking the law could reach as high as one
million koruny,  which is the same as that for violating nuclear safety. Jan
Figel of the KDH recommended that the  payment for the misuse of the
language be
reduced to 3,000 koruny, which corresponds to the fine for the  misuse of
state
symbols. Eventually, the parliament voted to reduce the top fine by half, to
500,000 koruny.

The law's provisions

The language law, put forward by Meciar, requires that the state language be
used in the following cases  (among others):

  for all official dealings involving state and local offices throughout
Slovakia (thus overriding a 1990  language law which gave minorities the
right
to use their language in areas where they represent at  least 20% of the
population);

  for the agenda of public offices and churches, excluding weddings (in the
previous draft, weddings  were supposed to be carried out in the state
language,
but this was changed after protests from the  church);

  for all school textbooks (with the exception of those used for minority and
foreign language  education);

  for radio and television broadcasting, press and other publications
(broadcasting for minorities and  publications in other languages are
governed
by separate regulations);

  for catalogues and brochures from museums, cinemas, etc., although foreign
language equivalents  can be provided when necessary;

  for cultural activities (with the exception of those for national
minorities
or those produced by  foreign guest artists);

  for the army, police force, Slovak Information Service, courts and
hospitals;

  for all labeling of goods, including imports;

  for all public signs, advertising and announcements.

  Knowledge of Slovak language (both oral and written) is required for public
employees and for teachers at  all schools with the exception of foreign
lecturers. The law takes effect on 1 January 1996, but the fines for
violations
will not be implemented until 1997.

Prospects

The language bill will now go to President Michal Kovac for approval, but
it can
be passed again by the  parliament though a simple majority even if he vetoes
it. In the meantime, however, international  pressure against the law can be
expected to grow. Hungarian Prime Minister Gyula Horn has several times
warned
Meciar that the law violates the Slovak-Hungarian treaty which was signed in
March but which  the Slovak parliament has yet to ratify. Although Horn's
concerns were not enough to delay passage of  the law, perhaps protests from
European organizations may have more effect. At Hungary's request, the
Council
of Europe is currently reviewing the bill. Meanwhile, the European
Parliament is
expected to pass  a resolution on Slovakia as early as 16 November which will
call special attention to the language law.  If the language law is
vetoed or
delayed, this could have an effect on Slovakia's ratification of the Slovak-
Hungarian treaty, which is currently scheduled for discussion by the Slovak
parliament in December but  could be pushed back once again. Without the
passage
of the language law, the radical Slovak National  Party (SNS), which is a
junior
partner in the ruling coalition, would not vote in favor of the treaty.
Although Meciar has enough support in the parliament to ratify the treaty
with
the help of the  opposition, his coalition government could collapse if the
treaty is ratified without the language law.    [ Program Brief Chronological
Index | Program Brief Regional Index ] [ Server Index | About OMRI ]
The OMRI
WWW server is maintained by Ken Varnum, Electronic Services Librarian. Please
send your  comments, questions and suggestions 

Eva S. Balogh wrote:

: ...Therefore, with a heavy heart, I suggest to put up with him
: and simply try to ignore him. ...

Better mail reading software can do this automatically, BTW.  My mailer
filters by author, subject, length, etc.  This can make life much easier for
mailing list junkies...


--Greg Grose

Joe Szalai wrote:


: Besides, America only gets involved if it is to its advantage.

And what, pray, is our advantage in Bosnia?


--Greg Grose

Hungarian ADL is working!!!

   Hi, Laci (Europa) and every body hungarian hungarians!See, we do
not have to be suffering antihungarian defamation any more! Enough
was enough! Hungarian antidefamation liga is working! All what we
have to be doing is to fighting back augly defamators with their
instrumentation. If peoples of the word are seeing that some ugly
man (and womans!) say ugly things about hungarians, that our
Freedom Fight was not, or if it was then the russians were the
freedomfighters, and not enough hungarians were dieing, and is
telling ugly sex jokes that hungarians rather changed their
hungrianness instead of fighting, we can defense our selfs if we say
the same things for them! If they use cenzura, they would be
ridiculos for everybody that they do ugly things for us but they are
too week to be man to take the same things! They can not dare
seeing into the mirror!? Will not do cenzura, peoples would be
laugfing them out.

  Thise defamators are thinking that when they are not good for
hungarians, not good for jewish, then they are good for americans!
They are not true. Real good americans do not like insulting
hungarians, they like the hungarian freedomfighters. Americans do
not like third class "jewish" who do bad things to Israel, a good real
askenazi jewish would not killed an other jewish (Rabin), only an
extremist (bad jewish) is doing crazy things like this! And americans
do not like cenzura! Kornai asassinated his character (?)by his verse.
He was showing in his verse that he is a confusing rich kid who does
not know who he is. Kadarjugend communist? Westernized
(sanitised) anticommunist "Kadargyerek"? Hungarian? Jewish?
American?All of the aboves? None of the aboves?1956 was an
antirevolution (ellenforradalom?), or was revolution? Was both? Was
none?Who were freedomfighters? Nobodly? The russians? Kornai
knows nothing about 56! He was saying that the result was that
Munnich was put aside! Crazy! Munnich was Kadars internal minister
and communists liked him better than Kadar!!! And when Kornai is
saying bad things for hungarians says that he is jewish: when
hungarians are defending themselfes against Kornais dirt, he can say
that hungarians are antisemitic! This is u-g-l-y !!! If somebodys
father changed jewishness by babtizing himself rather than fight is
O.K.Nobody says bad things for man who did not want to dieing of
holocaust.But rich kid can think piecefully if he wants to be jewish or
not jewish, how many years is enough to deciding? Or it depends?
Which is better today or tomorrow? This is also fine, if you want
that. But dont say bad things for people who are not changing
hungarianness because of situations.

       Lets' keep up the good antidefamatory fighting! Hungarians will
be fighting everybody who is saying bad things for hungarian
hungarians!!! Hajra magyar szabadsagharcosok! (<- this is not a bad
saying for anybody, ask somebody to translate it down! We want
good things for ourselfes, not want bad things for any body!)

VERDICT:(by the hungarian government) Don't sell the national grid,(high
voltage transmission network) and Paks(atomic power plant).Maintain majority
control of 76% public ownership in this core company.Allow some privatelly
owned generators and allow stakes of between 34 per cent and 49.7 per cent
privatelly owned 13 non-nuclear power generation and supply companies.Moder-
nise and resructure the non-nuclear power generation plants to get in on to
the Western Europian Grid's (hv.transmission network) new electric market!
This verdict will prevent a massive layoffs and turmoil as workers,consumers
and users of privatised services adjust.I for one can live with this verdict.
Closing this subject, I like to thank your patients,reading this strangely
writen arguments.I like to thank specially Barna Bozoki and Eva Balogh's
contributions to this arguments,without Eva's arguments,we couldn't argue on
anything,because Barna and I were on the same side.However,closing this
subject,I like to ask the following question:Is anybody ever thinking about
what Hungary will be like once everything is privatised? A more serious prob-
lem with privatisation is that it is almost impossible to reverse it with
today's cash-poor governments.How could they ever put together a big state
enterprises,like MVM Rt.in,say,five years,what they now own,if they had start
from scratch.
Laci Toth

Hi, my name is Donna Murphy.  I am a student at in Baltimore Maryland, USA.
I am taking a class in central European culture and am doing a research
paper on the effects of computers on your culture.

How has the "technological revolution" influenced your people, culture and
society?

How does your computer technology compare to that of the western culture?

I would greatly appreciate any information you could give me.  Any leads to
journals, articles, papers books or internet sites.

Feel free to contact me if you need any further details.  Thank You!
______________________________________________
       Donna Ratliff Murphy
       Computer Illustrator
       Snail Mail:  University of Maryland
                    Illustrative Services / Art Section
                    10 S. Pine St.
                    Baltimore MD 21201
       E-Mail: 
       P-(410)706-3511   Fax-(410)706-0691
______________________________________________

Since I read the last letters first, I did not know that the following
letter was written by Eva Balogh:

>>As a Canadian citizen but a resident of the United States I would like to
>>point to the least attractive characteristic of Canadians: Canadian
>>nationalism which can be expressed only in virulent anti-Americanism.

As a Canadian citizen of somewhat nationalistic tendencies. (I am not
only have nationalistic feelings for Hungary) and with a lot of Canadian
friends and relatives, I feel that the above statement is highly inaccurate.
In our relatives and friends, there is not one anti-american. There are
some canadians, who would like to have more economic
independent from the US, who are worried to be assimilated in economy and
culture. I am one of them.
But such a behavior is natural and nothing to be ashamed us. There might
be some canadians who are virulently anti-american. But they are a very
small minority. Most american studies, find the canadians less nationalistic
than the americans.
  I don't want to take part in the dispute between Mr. Szalai and the others.

  I just felt that making virulent anti-Americanism a canadian characteristic
is unfair.

  Sandor Lengyel

Sandor Lengyel writes

>Since I read the last letters first, I did not know that the following
>letter was written by Eva Balogh:
>
>>>As a Canadian citizen but a resident of the United States I would like to
>>>point to the least attractive characteristic of Canadians: Canadian
>>>nationalism which can be expressed only in virulent anti-Americanism.
>
>As a Canadian citizen of somewhat nationalistic tendencies. (I am not
>only have nationalistic feelings for Hungary) and with a lot of Canadian
>friends and relatives, I feel that the above statement is highly inaccurate.
>In our relatives and friends, there is not one anti-american. There are
>some canadians, who would like to have more economic
>independent from the US, who are worried to be assimilated in economy and
>culture. I am one of them.
>But such a behavior is natural and nothing to be ashamed us. There might
>be some canadians who are virulently anti-american. But they are a very
>small minority. Most american studies, find the canadians less nationalistic
>than the americans.
>  I don't want to take part in the dispute between Mr. Szalai and the others.
>
>>  I just felt that making virulent anti-Americanism a canadian characteristic
>is unfair.
>
>  Sandor Lengyel

Sandor, if you would have posted this letter before I posted mine, you might
have been the one that Jon Pannon and Eva Balogh jumped on.

I have made several postings and in the 'subject' field I put
'anti-American??'.  It seems to me that I should have put 'anti-Canadian??'
instead.  I stated that I wanted the American GIs to stay at home and not go
to Pecs.  I also stated that Eva and Joe couldn't wait for the Americans to
show up.  They seemed eager to see the American GIs in Hungary.

They have a right to their eagerness.  They have a right to state their
feelings in public.  But I also have the right to be critical.  However,
instead of challenging my views, Eva Balogh gave all readers of this list a
good example of what prejudice and discrimination is.  To her, being
critical of American foreign policy is not an intellectual pastime but a
medical condition.  To her, anti-Americanism is a virus.  She says that "the
least attractive characteristic of Canadians..."  How does she know?  Has
she talked to all Canadians??  No!  She had already made up her mind and
does not want to be confused by facts.

Canadians and Hungarians have at least one thing in common.  We both live
beside great powers.  Historically, we have been critical of their actions
and power.  And rightfully so!!  We were, or could always be their next
conquest.  If all this makes me anti-American, then I'll wear the label with
some pride.

Joe Szalai

Darren Purcelle writes


>I ahve never liked the term world police, because that implies that there
>is a rule of the world to be enforced, and all we have today is competing
>>ways of looking at it. I won't say that the US is not an empire of
>sorts...economically it is and even by force it is. Whether it is the
>worst empire in the world is another question

Don't worry about that Darren.  The United States is not the worst empire in
the world.  It's not even close.  The US has done a lot of good in the world
(often unthanked!).  But it has also flexed its muscle in ways that make me
want to vomit.  Life's like that.
>
>However, I do believe we have some business in being there. I hope the

Why do you believe that the Americans have any business being there.
Certainly the conflict in Bosnia is not a threat to the US.  What is
happening in Bosnia is very sad and tragic.  But, still, it's a conflict for
Europeans to stop.  The US is welcomed to help as a member of NATO or the UN
but why does the US need to take a leading role?  Might does not equal right!

>Canadians will serve as well, since they are a valuable fighting force . I

Once again, don't worry.  If the Americans want the Canadians to serve, the
Canadians will.  It's not that I agree, but in Canada we have a common
saying.  'If the Americans say jump, Canadians ask 'How high?'.  That is the
price of our independence. ;-(

>wish Europe had done more in it's own
>backyard but since it didn't someone should try and get some results. If
>it has to be the U.S. so be it. But I wouldn't sweat it, if Gramm and
>Dole have their way, (they forget how valuable a war for oil is, not
>for humanity)

Joe Szalai

Prof. Bela Liptak wrote:

> This morrning (11/27/95-Monday), the Ambassador of Slovakia, Branislav
> Lichardous replies to my letter of a week ago in the New York Times.
>
> He claims, that: "the law does not mandate, that all signs, advertisements
> and announcements be in the state language. It is not true that this law
> makes it a criminal act for a rabbi to speak Yiddish or Hebrew in a
> synagouge, neither obliges a foreign artist to perform exclusively in Slovak
> nor presumes criminal sanctions for that matter."

If Mr. Lichardus has put it that way, that's probably because, let's say it
that way, he knows what he's speaking about.

The final version of the infamous language law has not been published yet.
Hard to say what exactly it contains. Last week, I have myself stated on
this list that the maximal fine would be of Sk500k for individuals and of
Sk1m for organisations. This amount has been divided by a factor two in
the final version.

There indeed is no criminal prosecution expected as a result of the non-
respect of the law. For the first time, the authorities have an obligation
to remind the offending subject and only if there is no corrective action
taken, some coercitive measures would be applied, which remain, as far as
I know, on the level of an "order fine". This is expected to be left on
small fonctionnaires which, together with fuzzy criterions, may contribute
to an increase of the feeling of a legal insecurity in the country.

So far, only fragments and imprecise informations have filtered out to
Slovakian press. The final law draft seems having suffered many
modifications in its present version. As soon as I get something more
reliable, I will try to translate the key parts and make it publicly
available.

Roman Kanala

On Mon, 27 Nov 1995, Greg Grose wrote:

> Better mail reading software can do this automatically, BTW.  My mailer
> filters by author, subject, length, etc.  This can make life much easier for
> mailing list junkies...
>
>
> --Greg Grose
> 

which software are you using?

Sorry, but when I accessed the server your message had already been
deleted.  I hope that you again respond to this message.
I appreciated your prompt response to my inquiry.

You may wonder - Why am I interestd in Hungary?  I subscribe to a
journal entitled "International Living".  Each year they list the top
ten most desirable overseas retirement locations.  For the last two
years, they listed Hungary as number three or four in this listing
[after Ireland and Ecuador].  In addition, the son of a friend of mine
is working in Hungary as a CPA [certified public accountant] and he
reports that Budapest is a very desirable place to live.  What's it
like outside of Budapest?

Has any of the conflict within Yugoslavia flowed over into Hungary?

I am interested in either retiring in Hungary or, more likely, serving
as a senior consultant or representative to a US firm in Hungary.
Maybe teach! Could I teach at one of the technical universities if I
can't speak Hungarian.  I used to speak quite good Germam.

I do not require [probably desire] full-time employment.  Therefore, I
would be interested in contacting US firms in Hungary and I believe
that the commercial section of the embassy would be able to get me
started on this search. I've tried to find an e-mail address for the
US embassy but so far haven't been successful.  I will eventually send
an e-mail to the US State Department asking them for a way to
electronically contact the embassy in Budapest.  If you have an
internet address for the embassy, I would appreciate receiving it.

Is there an American community in Hungary?  Accessable on the
internet?  A newsletter that is available electronically?

I have an application for the International Executive Service Corps
[IESC].  I understand that they have sponsored projects in the Czech
Republic, but I don't know about Hungary!  I believe that the IESC is
partially supported by USAID.  Projects are funded by developing
countries or industries within these countries - basically paying
living expenses.

Where do you live and what do you do?  What is the cost of living
[good housing, food, etc.] in Hungary [in US dollars]? What income
[dollars] would be required to live well in Budapest?  aRequire a good
furnished apartment in a good location.  Should I plan to use public
transportation, buy a car, or rent a car?  What is the cost of a
dinner in a middle-class restaurant?

My wife and I are taking a two-week Mediterranean cruise in May
[Atheans, Istanpul, Yalta, Odessa, Varna, Rome] and are considering
attending the European Centre of the University of New Orleans in
Innsbruck, Austria, for three weeks in June/July.  We may take time to
visit Budapest on one of these trips?

Look forward to hearing from you


John Kershaw