I am so glad I asked that question!  Hope to get even more answers than
the ones from Bob, Eva and Louis.  (Thanks for your contributions!)

Now, how about the rest of the world?  Anyone in Austria, or Sweden,
Italy or Greece - do you know of towns, streets, etc. named after
Hungarians or connected with Hungary?

Keep those cards and letters coming, folks.  It's part of our heritage.
Martha

With any communication regarding this mail, please DO NOT USE THE
REPLY BUTTON but address it to:

                

Martha


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 15:05:44 -0500
From: Daniel E. Meyers >
To: Multiple recipients of list FLTEACH >
Subject:

Hi all. I am trying to get some 3 foot by 5 foot flags of various
European and American countries to decorate our language lab for the
coming school year. Does anyone know which national tourist centers or
embassies would be most likely to donate a flag? Please respond off list
to me and I will post a summary of embassies/info centers that would most
likely help out to the list. Many thanks! Gracias! Danke! Merci!

 ===========================================================================
 DANIEL E. MEYERS, Director                       
 Foreign Language Lab           http://www.fl.uh-west2.utoledo.edu/home.html
 The University of Toledo                    http://131.183.82.151/home.html
 Toledo, OH 43606-3390             Voice:(419) 530-2432,  Fax:(419) 530-4954
 ===========================================================================

This sprang forth from the pages of my local mullet-wrapper, the Raleigh
News & Observer, when I opened up its June 17, 1996, edition at the
breakfast table this morning:

"Hungary, the nation that produced Liszt, Bartok and Kodaly, is making a
new contribution to the world of music: the serenading condom.

The prophylactic uses technology similar to that in a musical greeting
card -- a programmed chip begins playing the melody as the condom is
unfurled.

The condom comes in one of two tunes: "Arise, Ye Worker," an old communist
ditty, and "You Sweet Little Dumbbell."

Ferenc Kovacs, 45, patented the condom and contracted a rubber factory to
produce 100 samples. He sells the songful sheaths at his novelty shop on a
quiet Budapest side street.

Kovacs, a former house painter who has also worked in the film industry,
hasn't decided how much to charge customers.

"I believe it'll be so popular...that I will be able to set a competitive
price," he said."
Sam Stowe

P.S. -- I don't make 'em up, folks. I just report them.

P.S.S. -- Anyone have some ideas for alternate song titles for Kovacs ur's
distinctive product? "Some Enchanted Evening" springs to mind.


Ceci n'est pas une sig

I am looking for someone who can help in my research of Belasco's from
Pressburg Hungary, who immigrated about July 1902 to the US.

Thank you,

D.R."Doc" Begnal-Young,  
http://pages.prodigy.com/XCEE48A/gln.htm
http://pages.prodigy.com/XCEE48A/fire.htm
http://pages.prodigy.com/XCEE48A/begnal.htm

Hi Martha,

You wrote:
>News from the wire services:
>
>* Two more Southern Black churches have been burned, bringing the
>  recent wave of burnings to a total of 35 in the past 18 months.
>    - both churches were burned last night in Kossuth, Mississippi.
>    - federal investigators continue to look into the burnings.
>
>It is a shame that I learned about the existence of this place through an
>atrocity.  However, it prompted me to ask you the following:
>
>Does anyone know how and when this town was named Kossuth?  Do you know
>of other places with the same - or Hungary-related - names anywhere in the
>world?  Please share it with us.
>

I don't know the exact answer to your question, but I seem to recall that I
read somewhere that Kosuth toured Dixie on the eve of the Civil War,
endorsing the notion of seccession.  (figures)

Yo, Sam!

At 23:57 18/06/96 -0400, Stowewrote:

<I hesitate to use the word *snip* in this context>

>The condom comes in one of two tunes: "Arise, Ye Worker," an old communist
>ditty, and "You Sweet Little Dumbbell."

<U know, deleted again>

>Sam Stowe
>
>P.S. -- I don't make 'em up, folks. I just report them.
>
>P.S.S. -- Anyone have some ideas for alternate song titles for Kovacs ur's
>distinctive product? "Some Enchanted Evening" springs to mind.

How about *Up, Up and Away*?

Bye for now,

Janka :-)
>
>
>Ceci n'est pas une sig
>
>

At 09:25 PM 6/18/96 -0300, Johanna wrote:
>Kedves Sam!
>
>(What is the Hungarian for *Sam*, anyway?)

        Samu. I knew a dear Samu bacsi in Ottawa. Not a very common name but
it exists.

        Eva

Is anyone else experiencing delays in getting their posts on the list?
Mine are taking as much as five days and are accompanied by separate
e-mail from a server in Hungary notifying me that my post was not
delivered. Sounds like the software somewhere is running amok.
Sam Stowe

Ceci n'est pas une sig

Your problem seems to be with the Usenet distribution mechanism of
bit.listserv.hungary, which for some reason has been half-broken ever. Use
the original email route via  which should not (and
ususally does not ;-)) have much trouble!

On Wed, 19 Jun 1996, Stowewrite wrote:

> Is anyone else experiencing delays in getting their posts on the list?
> Mine are taking as much as five days and are accompanied by separate
> e-mail from a server in Hungary notifying me that my post was not
> delivered. Sounds like the software somewhere is running amok.
> Sam Stowe
>
> Ceci n'est pas une sig
>

 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!

In article >,  says...
>
>Is anyone else experiencing delays in getting their posts on the list?
>Mine are taking as much as five days and are accompanied by separate
>e-mail from a server in Hungary notifying me that my post was not
>delivered. Sounds like the software somewhere is running amok.
>Sam Stowe
>
>Ceci n'est pas une sig

Yes, Sam, I had the same problem.  Server in Hungary cannot find address.

In article >, 
says...
>
>>In article >,
 says...
>>>
>>>Quoting Agnes Heringer
>>>
>>>>As far as I am concerned, the cultural difference cannot be bridged.
>>>
>>>Dear Agnes:
>>>
>>>If I were made to believe this statement to be a fact, I would truly
>>>consider the threat of humanity to be in danger of extinction...  This,
>>is
>>>an exteremely serious statement, one which I wholeheartedly disagree
>>with!
>>>I give humanity  more credit than this.... and have, and and exercised
>>it,
>>>and so far, it has not yet let me down.
>>>
>>>Now, if you were to say that religious differences cannot be bridged, I
>>>would give your thought pattern the necessary leaway it deserves... but
>>>cultural?... No bloody way!  I repeat,.... I give humanity far more
>>credit
>>>that that!  Sorry Agnes, your statement is truly "out to lunch" at least
>>in
>>>my opinion!
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>Aniko
>>
>>Aniko, I came with my family to Canada in 1963. I have worked 30 years in
>>Canadian companies.  So did my husband.  Maybe it is our fault, however,
>>all my friends and acquaintances - unless intermarried - are in the same
>>boot.  In all these years, I had one non-Hungarian girlfriend, who
>>happened to be British (European culture) and repatriated 18 years ago.
>>There is one Canadian couple (I used to work with the husband) with whom
>>we occasionally get together.  As I mentioned in my note, that does not
>>mean that we do not get on with each other - I have terrific rapport with
>>my son-in-laws - but simply, we are on another plane culturally.
>>I was 30 when I came to Canada, but I have friends who were
>>18 and have the same problem.  Incidentally, those who emigrated to the
>>US, fare a little bit better, I am told.
>>
>>Regards, Agnes
>>
>>Agnes:somewhere something went wrong.I came to Canada in 57 all by
>myself.It is ture that in the beginning my free time was spent with other
>Hungarians,but somehow I managed to marry a french Canadian girl,and this
>brought us a Son.They both live now in the Us.We had more hungarian friends
>then canadian,this is true,but I can not understand what "cultural
>differences"you can find beetween two human beings.Ok.so you like opera,I
>like Frank Sinatra and big band.Just wondering how much effort if any you
>pur into understandung the Canadian "Culture"?
>I live now in Toronto and I hardly have any Hungarian friends,most of them
>past away,and I sociolise with canadians more then ever before.We both have
>our respect for each other,and mutualy aggree or disagree on subject.
>Agnes,I wish you could tell me what you find so different beetween the 2
>cultures,and then I might agree with you.
>Andy Kozma.


Andy, I just had a private correspondence on this with Aniko.  You are both
intermarried.  I mentioned that those who intermarried are different.  What
are the differences?  I don't like hockey or baseball, rock music or
megamusicals.  I am sorry, I tried.  Just as in all these years I couldn't
get used to Bartok, no matter who is playing his violin concerto.  I
remember lunch hours when I was just unable to join conversations about
ballgames, sex talks, etc.  Yes, I could converse about children, camping
and office "traccs".  I remember the only colleague I could discuss
Stratford was a Hong Kong Chinese. - We could get a 50% discount to
Stratford and the opera.  There were 5 of us who took advantage of the 50%
opera susbscription.  I used to work for Esso....  I envy you both.

In article >, 
says...
>
>For those who might be interested and have the time to persue it, the
following
>titles cover the Tiszaezlar story:
>
>        Eotvos, Karoly, (1842-1916)
>                A nagy per; mely ezer eve folyik, s meg sincs vege.
>                Budapest: Szepirodalmi konyvkiado [1968]
>
>        This is a reprint or republication of the original work of the
author.
>        Eotvos was a major player in the case.
>
>
>        Handler, Andrew.
>                Blood libel at Tiszaeszlar.
>                Boulder [Colo.] : East European Monographs; NEw York:
>                Distributed by Columbia University Press, 1980.
>
>Bob Hosh



Unfortunately, the "Nagy Per" is presently out of print.  My girlfriend was
in Hungary and couldn't find it anywhere.  However, if anybody knows where
it is available, I would appreciate letting me know.

Regards, Agnes

In article >,
 says...
>
>Let's try to understand each other a little more and accept that each
>migrant experience is different.
>
>I feel sorry for Agnes Heringer's problems which I am sure were heartfelt.
>There is not need to question, let alone judge her for them.
>
>When faced with a different culture, one always needs to adapt.  Depending
>on the perceived distance to bridge, it may not always be possible to
bridge
>the distance.  Note that I am talking about perceptions: it is all on the
>mind.  Some people have an unfavourable first experience that makes them
>clam up, others are introverted that makes reaching out difficult.  Yet
>others find certain aspects of the different culture too offputting to
>want to make acquaintance with other aspects of it.  More fortunate people,
>and I count myself among them, relish cultural differences and even seek
>them out beyond the level of tasting different food.
>
>Neither are cultural differences a function of geographical distance.
>I find the general temperament of Mediterraneans and Latin Americans
closest
>to my own and I click them better/sooner that with Northern Europeans,
Anglo
>Saxons in particular wherever in their diaspora.  There are exceptions even
>from that general experience: the Northern English I encountered I perceive
>to be closer to Mediterraneans than to other English.
>
>And sometimes very distant cultures can give rewards for trying to bridge
>gaps.  The cultural experience I profited from most is that in Papua New
>Guinea.  Similarly, cultures that one would expect to be quite close to
>one's own can have surprises: while a signle man in Australia I found the
>body language and nuances of the mating game especially different from
>that on the Continent in general and Hungary in particular.  It is very
>easy to cause offence if one uses old assumptions about the meaning of
>apparently same gestures.
>
>In the end, when faced with a new culture, there is nothing more to do
>on the ground than to try to listen and see before one's own action, move
>cautiously initially, accept the differences and try to find enjoyment in
>them.  It also helps to do some research beforehand.  For example, the
>extreme reluctance of many South-East Asians to utter a straight NO must
>be noted, along with their problems associated with losing face.
>
>George Antony

Thank you, George, for defending me.  Actually, I am glad to read on this
forum that I and all my friends and acquaintances are in the minority!

>In article >, 
>says...
>>
>>>In article >,
 says...
>>>>
>>>>Quoting Agnes Heringer
>>>>
>>>>>As far as I am concerned, the cultural difference cannot be bridged.
>>>>
>>>>Dear Agnes:
>>>>
>>>>If I were made to believe this statement to be a fact, I would truly
>>>>consider the threat of humanity to be in danger of extinction...  This,
>>>is
>>>>an exteremely serious statement, one which I wholeheartedly disagree
>>>with!
>>>>I give humanity  more credit than this.... and have, and and exercised
>>>it,
>>>>and so far, it has not yet let me down.
>>>>
>>>>Now, if you were to say that religious differences cannot be bridged, I
>>>>would give your thought pattern the necessary leaway it deserves... but
>>>>cultural?... No bloody way!  I repeat,.... I give humanity far more
>>>credit
>>>>that that!  Sorry Agnes, your statement is truly "out to lunch" at least
>>>in
>>>>my opinion!
>>>>
>>>>Regards,
>>>>Aniko
>>>
>>>Aniko, I came with my family to Canada in 1963. I have worked 30 years in
>>>Canadian companies.  So did my husband.  Maybe it is our fault, however,
>>>all my friends and acquaintances - unless intermarried - are in the same
>>>boot.  In all these years, I had one non-Hungarian girlfriend, who
>>>happened to be British (European culture) and repatriated 18 years ago.
>>>There is one Canadian couple (I used to work with the husband) with whom
>>>we occasionally get together.  As I mentioned in my note, that does not
>>>mean that we do not get on with each other - I have terrific rapport with
>>>my son-in-laws - but simply, we are on another plane culturally.
>>>I was 30 when I came to Canada, but I have friends who were
>>>18 and have the same problem.  Incidentally, those who emigrated to the
>>>US, fare a little bit better, I am told.
>>>
>>>Regards, Agnes
>>>
>>>Agnes:somewhere something went wrong.I came to Canada in 57 all by
>>myself.It is ture that in the beginning my free time was spent with other
>>Hungarians,but somehow I managed to marry a french Canadian girl,and this
>>brought us a Son.They both live now in the Us.We had more hungarian friends
>>then canadian,this is true,but I can not understand what "cultural
>>differences"you can find beetween two human beings.Ok.so you like opera,I
>>like Frank Sinatra and big band.Just wondering how much effort if any you
>>pur into understandung the Canadian "Culture"?
>>I live now in Toronto and I hardly have any Hungarian friends,most of them
>>past away,and I sociolise with canadians more then ever before.We both have
>>our respect for each other,and mutualy aggree or disagree on subject.
>>Agnes,I wish you could tell me what you find so different beetween the 2
>>cultures,and then I might agree with you.
>>Andy Kozma.
>
>
>Andy, I just had a private correspondence on this with Aniko.  You are both
>intermarried.  I mentioned that those who intermarried are different.  What
>are the differences?  I don't like hockey or baseball, rock music or
>megamusicals.  I am sorry, I tried.  Just as in all these years I couldn't
>get used to Bartok, no matter who is playing his violin concerto.  I
>remember lunch hours when I was just unable to join conversations about
>ballgames, sex talks, etc.  Yes, I could converse about children, camping
>and office "traccs".  I remember the only colleague I could discuss
>Stratford was a Hong Kong Chinese. - We could get a 50% discount to
>Stratford and the opera.  There were 5 of us who took advantage of the 50%
>opera susbscription.  I used to work for Esso....  I envy you both.
>Agnes:I am sorry,but I can not agree with you.First when we lived in
Hungary we discussed soccer,sports entertainment and socoial life including
sex.Then we were younger.Second,my intermarriage broke up after 6 years,and
I never had too much going on with my inlawa.Metter of fact they did not
even come to our wedding since we were different in our religion.
Third,I made all the effort from the very beginning on,to try to assimilate
myself to the anglo/saxon language.Most of the other Hungarians were very
close together,still talking Hungarian.I realised that this will be my new
home,and the most important thing was to learn the language.With that I
think came to like Hockey especialy in Montreal,and football.But don't think
this was the msot important in my life.It was to make a living helping to
bring up my Son,and fianly having some fun.No I did not go to any concert,I
still hate rock "music".
For me it is noise,but the "old"style music still gives me shivers.
My present wife was born in Canada and most of our friends are
Canadians.But,and there is a big But Agnes,don't forget the canadians are
all emmigrants.From all over the world,and we except them,and let them have
there own culture,not as in the Us,where evrybody has to have the american
"culture".Now if you have anything against that,I will aggree with you.
I just wish Agi,that you would look at anyone else as a human being.We all
have differences,but somwhere there we could find something wich is mutualy
agreed on.Now that I am retiered I lost lots of friends from either side,but
through this marvelous invention Internet,I am able to correspond all over
the world,not just "Hungary".I find it amasing and very enjoyable since this
way you don't see the people,they don't see you,so you are on a blind date.
I hope,and I wish I was able to explain why I think my way,and why I hope
maybe you will try not to be so stringent about cultures.
Bets regards:Andy.
>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 The local delivery error messages being bounced back to posters should
not come back in response to list submissions - postmaster please take
notice!
 The error messages being received from a site in Hungary (JPTE) have
nothing to do with the list's trasmission problems; the latter is caused
mostly by the fact that only about one-third of all Usenet servers carry
bit.listserv.hungary and the holes between the links slow down
propagation - that is why the traditional email submission is more
reliable and faster from mist sites than posting thru the newsgroup.
- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQBVAwUBMchOAsQ/4s87M5ohAQHwUAH9HyqtJV7k8oR24tr2Q5aQDSPTrufytOLq
70qXhJPe7t/tj29+KVXxSqd9aweclsmnuunwIbL1dSgI35ymb0ES6Q==
=sKNb
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Martha writes:

> Does anyone know how and when this town was named Kossuth?  Do you know
> of other places with the same - or Hungary-related - names anywhere in
the
> world?  Please share it with us.

There is a Kossuth street in Columbus OH. There is also a memorial of
Kossuth in the state house where Kossuth addressed the Ohio assembly and
senate.

I have a vague recollection reading somewhere also that Kossuth was the
second foreigner (after Lafayette and before Churchill) to address the
joint houses in DC.

Regards,Jeliko.

Sam Stowe writes:


> P.S.S. -- Anyone have some ideas for alternate song titles for Kovacs
ur's
> distinctive product? "Some Enchanted Evening" springs to mind.

How about "Huzd ra cigany"

Regards,Jeliko

At 12:03 AM 6/19/96, S. Bihari wrote:
>On Tue, 18 Jun 1996, Louis Elteto wrote:
>
>> There is a small village, Kossuth, in NW Ohio.
>
>There is?  My Rand McNally Road Atlas doesn't show it.  Can you tell me
>the closest community to it?
>
>
>Martha

Consider looking for Kossuth in Miss. as well where yesterday a church was
burning.

Peter I. Hidas

Hungarian Studies
Department Of Russian and Slavic Studies
McGill University
Montreal, Quebec, Canada

Agnes Heringer wrote:

> Thank you, George, for defending me.

Think nothing of it, it's only fair.

>Actually, I am glad to read on this
> forum that I and all my friends and acquaintances are in the minority!

I don't think that one can be that unequivocal about that.  This list
cannot be taken as a representative sample of Hungarian migrants.  More
likely, it has among its members mainly intellectuals who, in my experience,
are generally more adaptable than working-class people.

George Antony

At 01:42 PM 6/19/96 GMT, you wrote:
>In article >,  says...
>>
>>Is anyone else experiencing delays in getting their posts on the list?
>>Mine are taking as much as five days and are accompanied by separate
>>e-mail from a server in Hungary notifying me that my post was not
>>delivered. Sounds like the software somewhere is running amok.
>>Sam Stowe
>>
>>Ceci n'est pas une sig
>
>Yes, Sam, I had the same problem.  Server in Hungary cannot find address.
>
        Yes, I have been having problems too. I keep getting back my
messages, addressed to all sorts of people in Hungary and elsewhere instead
of our list but when I sent the message the second time, I was told that my
message had already reached HUNGARY.

        Eva Balogh

Dear Doc;

At 06:15 AM 6/19/96 GMT, you wrote:

>I am looking for someone who can help in my research of Belasco's from
>Pressburg Hungary, who immigrated about July 1902 to the US.
>
>Thank you,
>
>D.R."Doc" Begnal-Young,  

Are you aware that the city that used to be called Pressburg is now called
Bratislava and is in the Czech republic? (southeast corner at Hungarian
border--it was part of the Trianon booty...)

Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA



N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

At 08:47 AM 6/20/96 +1000, you wrote:
>Agnes Heringer wrote:
>> Thank you, George, for defending me.
>
        >Think nothing of it, it's only fair.
>
>>Actually, I am glad to read on this
>> forum that I and all my friends and acquaintances are in the minority!
>
        >I don't think that one can be that unequivocal about that.  This list
        >cannot be taken as a representative sample of Hungarian migrants.  Mor
e
        >likely, it has among its members mainly intellectuals who, in my
experience,
        >are generally more adaptable than working-class people.
----------------
Hi all!  Really, a last quick note on this George/Agnes:  (you'll both like
this, I promise)

Re 2nd last line above....George could you define "mainly intellectuals"
please?  but do so after July 9th, so that I can respond?

Agnes:  Taking it from my somewhat obnoxious reply in answer to your
original post ( for which, I really have apologized).... but Boy, a boy!
When I loose it, I do it well.... It was not until the last post, that I
actually saw what you wrote:  "those who are NOT intermarried".... for
extremely stupidly I thought I read (and read again, and again)  "those who
ARE intermarried".... and based my entire 2nd response to your post
accordingly.... Explanation you ask?,  Well, let's just 'humbly" say; the
most amazing display of stupidity by Aniko herself!!!!.....(although, other
adjectives have popped to mind).

Important, to note that in reality, I do and will continue to stand by the
philosphy of my posts which responded to yours wholeheartedly.   In this
particular instance however, had I read what you originally wrote; would
likely have approached it altogether differently... (and who ever said, that
this group is not capable of teaching a few lessons along the way....???)

So sorry again to you Agnes....along with the rest of you who most likely
comprehended from the beginning...and were making plans on my behalf to
enroll me in the next "basic English comprehension" lesson.....thanks for
being patient!!!!

George again:  re your last three words above.... can we take that up, after
July 9th? Having been raised in a family of working class, I can argue that
point quite strongly...since the circumstances of "that life" along with
examples set,  have taught me well (oh well... rather well... I still mess
up now and then). And I would still love to pick from here... perhaps
privately?  (you know... to save face and all)!


Best regards,
Aniko Dunford

>

On Wed, 19 Jun 1996, S. Bihari wrote:

> On Tue, 18 Jun 1996, Louis Elteto wrote:
>
> > There is a small village, Kossuth, in NW Ohio.
>
> There is?  My Rand McNally Road Atlas doesn't show it.  Can you tell me
> the closest community to it?
>
>
> Martha
>
It is SW of Lima, at the junction of routes 197 and 66


Louis

Dear Group(s) (please forward to other groups, including other ethnicities
as you think helpful);

Well, contrary to what the World Radiosport Team Championship arrangements
committee initially thought about the needs of the East European teams, with
less than one month before the event, an e-mail presenting additional
"needs"--regarding 50 Russians, and Lord knows how many Ukranians, and
possibly the 52 Slovenians,etc. of course appeared at 2:00 a.m. this
morning.  The initial reaction of the committee was: is this for real????

Before they do anything about this, they'd like to confirm that reality. I'm
hoping you can help.

The WRTC, briefly is the olympics of amateur radio.  This year 52 teams of
two persons each (not counting supporting entourage, families, etc.) from 30
countries are competing for the title "best amateur radio operating team in
the world."  It's pretty serious stuff, actually, as amateur radio is still
the world's best medium of emergency communications in large natural, and
man-made disasters.  The competition is taking place in the San Francisco
Bay area July 10-15, 1996.

The WRTC arrangements committee has already raised, itself, a fairly large
sum to pay for the rooms, meals, and transportation, for the contestants
themselves.  They are still hoping for additional donations, (WRTC-96, Inc.
a nonprofit, 501(c)3--meaning donations from U.S. citizens are tax
deductible) but the basics are being fairly well covered. Entourages we make
reservations for, but the costs are theirs, generally, although they will be
included in some of the picnics, evening beer, wine, etc. bashes, etc...
Some of the dinners, bashes, etc. are being hosted by corporations, small
businesses, etc..

We will even be loaning the contestants computers, providing them the
operating stations, etc..  We have scheduled tours for them of San Francisco
and the wine country, with a wonderful wine enhanced picnic lunch for them
scheduled at Sattui winery in Napa county.

How much more should the WRTC committee be doing to make the groups feel
welcome?   How far should our hospitality, including "gifts???" extend
beyond the contestants themselves? Should we be providing additional small
gifts,as the following snippet from the surprise e-mail indicated, to the
contestants and what are the recommendations?

We are reading that it is customary for hosts in their own countries "to
shower Russian, Ukrainian, and other East European 'guests' with many small
tokens of friendship--additional to providing meals and accommodations and
entertainment.  The Ukrainian writer suggested fruit juice containers,
sausages, etc.--and that we make sure we have alternative supplies of foods
like dark bread, sausages, yogurt, etc. in case they find a particular day's
menu a bit unfamiliar and uncomfortable.

I don't remember having to make quite this much fuss when Silicon Valley
hosted the Soviet Silicon Summit.  An additional problem is that whatever we
provide for one group, must in some way be provided for everyone--all 52
teams from all 30 countries, to avoid the charge of favoritism.

Can anyone enlighten us further?

The second part of the e-mail was even more alarming.  Let's put it this
way: Do we also have any volunteers to chaperone (at least try) and assist
(ditto) up to 60 Russians and Ukrainians on a cross-the-U.S. driving trip
they think they are going to do--but want help in so doing--after the WRTC?
They plan on returning to their countries from New York City.

The group will be mostly male, and as the top-notch contesters and friends
in the world according to my husband (and he should know...) probably have
"way too much excess testosterone," not to mention will probably also have
large supplies of vodka and whatever else they decide they like and acquire
which they will _insist_, no doubt, on "sharing"--all through the trip.
This might appeal to some people, but alas, I'm not one of them...

By the way, this was not _my_ idea to get involved with this event.  My
darling husband who after the Soviet Silicon Summit should have known
better, ignored experience and blithely volunteered yours truly to help with
this event along with himself (WRTC, that is, before we knew there was
likely to be an aftermath...), along with himself, when I missed an amateur
radio club meeting.  Is there a worse penalty that can be devised for
missing _any_ organization's meeting???

Thanks for your attention and whatever information and help you can provide.
By the way, we also have at least one Hungarian team and a much smaller
entourage also arriving.  You might want to wish them luck or make their
acquaintance and try to help them have a good time while they are here also.

If you are interested in helping and going to be in the San Francisco Bay
Area from about July 8 through 20 (the WRTC contest itself, and official
prelimaries, etc. is July 10-15) please either call, or send a fax or e-mail
to me.  Tell others whom you think might be interested and be able to
help--please!!!

And Sam, if that's you I hear laughing uproariously in the distance--I want
your address to encourage these groups to pay you a visit so you can take
them to all your local best scenic (and "watering") spots in your state! :-)
By the way what's the Russian phrase for "the fire marshal/police chief
really won't like this..."  "Nyet" doesn't always seem to work very well...


Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
3273B Rocky Water Lane
San Jose, CA, USA  95148
tel./fax: 408-223-6102
e-mail: 


N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

> Felado :  [Hungary]
> Temakor: on careless cross-reference... ( 45 sor )
>
>         First of all, cross reference from one of the independent
> discussion lists to another one without proper citation has usually been
> discouraged by list moderators (in moderated lists).
The principle is valid but it finds no application in this case. Postings on
HUNGARY about FORUM materials came in two classes: those referring to the
general tenor of FORUM and those quoting specific materials from it. The
former need not cite any reference beyond the note that FORUM is available to
anyone interested on the HIX archives, since the general tone can be assessed
from any randomly picked issues. For the latter, i.e.  for citing specific
posts in part or in whole, full attribution is indeed desirable. My own
postings on the matter have always been quite specific on who the original
FORUM poster was and what date and/or issue the post appeared, and I have yet
to see a post on HUNGARY that can be said to amount to misattribution (or
theft) of intellectual property. One can hardly imagine a sane individual
trying to conceal the origins of e.g. NPA's postings.

> Cross reference
> between lists of different working languages is especially inconvenient.
Needless to say, a large number of HUNGARY participants reads Hungarian.
Nevertheless, I feel I should take some of the blame here, as I was unwilling
to translate some of the Hungarian material that I reposted on HUNGARY. The
language of Goebbelsian propaganda is not easy to replicate in English, where
it is traditional to leave extressions like "Lebensraum" untranslated.
Applying the same translation methods to FORUM would necessarily leave a great
deal of the material untranslated, or would require lengthy glosses, which are
good for semantic analysis but miss the emotional impact of the original.

For example, when a leading light of FORUM at the time, Istva1n Csorna, called
the Hungarian president "Szovjetpartizanarpibacsi" (check out FORUM 796, Dec
24 1992), what could one do? It is hard to translate the expression not
because it is, strictly speaking, ungrammatical in the original Hungarian (it
is, but any speaker of Hungarian understands what is meant, just as any any
speaker of English would understand "me much hungry you me food get") but
because in the lengthy glossing process the bloodcurling awfulness of the
original is entirely lost.

> Recently the correspondents of FORUM have been referred to and mentioned
> many times by some debatters of the HUNGARY list as extreme rightists, not
> to mention labels close to obscenity.
>         FORUM is a non-moderated political discussion list. During
> its several years of history a great variety of topics, opinions and persons
> have appeared in this list. Obviously, in the course of debates
> one unavoidably meets dubious opinions of provocative, extreme, naive,
> etc. nature. Practice has proven, however, that such opinions have, to our
> knowledge, usually found proper answer in the FORUM.
I very much doubt this, but I'm unwilling to immerse myself in FORUM to find
out how much has been rebutted (but see at the end of this posting). It is
also the case that the occassional voice of sanity, which I'm sure is heard on
FORUM now and again, will not, and can not, change the overall tenor.

I find it particularly hard to believe that Gyuri Ka1da1r, who have just
recently engaged in one of the most characteristic mudsliding tactics of the
Hungarian ultraright, blaming people for the alleged past of their relatives
(in this particular case, blaming the current mayor of Budapest for the
"bolshevik arrogance" of having married the granddaughter of a very prominent
Stalinist of the fifties) will provide counterbalance to other people's
misbehavior on FORUM. How could he moderate Rambo's saying "you are
executioners, just like your fathers and brothers" when he himself engages in
the same kind of tactics? (Readers interested in the grandson-in-law
controversy should check out the past three weeks of HIX SZALON, starting with
#1132)

>         The aim of this declaration is not to attack or defend opinions
> appeared in either the HUNGARY or the FORUM list. We only wish to
> reject the idea and practice of cross references without proper citation
> and translation between two lists of different working languages like
> HUNGARY and FORUM.
Perhaps the most often quoted person in this whole matter has been NPA. (As a
side note I add here that I don't belive a word of his story until he
documents it -- if he has been dismissed without due process he must at least
have a letter of dismissal to prove this.) Yet even NPA admitted that the
translation of his Hungarian was correct, in fact he thanked the translator
for it.

> The language barrier might raise obstacles to the proper understanding (let
> alone interpretation) of the content of postings.
Indeed. It was always my feeling that it is much better for FORUM to remain
behind the language barrier because that way its existence and contents are
less of an embarrassment for Hungary.

> Indirect information might lead to misinterpretations and may
> result in generalized defaming qualifications. Such defamations may be
> insulting and offensive for all participants, including those who wish to
> debate over and discuss serious topics, without extremities or personal
> attacks. In our opinion such effect of cross reference should be avoided by
> all means.
No doubt the best way to understand FORUM is to read through some issues:
this, and only this, will enable the reader to form an opinion. For my part,
I've read enough of FORUM (systematically until the "secession" and
sporadically since) to form the opinion that it is indeed a cesspool. That
there are decent people struggling with the disgusting part is unquestionable,
but their effect remains minimal.  It goes without saying that the mere fact
of posting on FORUM does not make one an antisemite. It is conceivable that
even the Vo2lkischer Beobachter had otherwise decent people among its authors,
but they had as little impact on VB as the reasonable people had on FORUM.

Let me emphasize that there is no need to invoke the notion of collective
guilt in this matter: the authors of "provocative, extreme, naive" and
sometimes just plain old antisemitic "dubious opinions" are responsible for
their own statements, and those who do not themselves write such opinions are
obviously not. There is of course the higher ethical standard of standing up
against such opinions, but *given the overall ultraright climate of FORUM* it
would be rather unrealistic to expect a lot of people to do so.

> Any opinion about postings and persons appeared in a particular
> list finds its best place for discussion in that same list.
Why FORUMers might wish to escape the scrutiny of the larger world,
particularly now that the prosecution of internet nazism is picking up, is an
interesting question. I no more think that discussion of FORUM should be
restricted to FORUM than I think that discussion of communism should be
restricted to card-carrying communists.

>         We will urge the writers and readers of the FORUM  list to do
> their best (and, of course, we also try to do our best) in avoiding
> generalized defamations resulting from irresponsible cross-references with
> regard to any list of the Internet, including HUNGARY, and we would
> be glad to experience the same kind of abstinence in the HUNGARY list with
> regard to the FORUM list.
>
>                 Bathori Gyorgy          
>                 Jalsovszky Gyorgy       
>                 Kadar Gyorgy            
>                 Zimanyi Magda           

Since the signers are so eager to defend the good name of FORUM it is not
unreasonable to ask them what have they personally done to dispel the
impression that FORUM provides a safe and happy environment for a singularly
ugly collection of antisemites and (neo)nazis? In particular, E1va Balogh
tells me that she has repeatedly implored some of you to stand up against the
antisemitic nonsense. What I'd like to see is a brief summary along the lines
'in May 1994, FORUM #1XXX, Jalsovszky rebutted the often recurring claim that
the Hungarian president is an agent of the New York-Tel Aviv axis'.  I have
neither the time nor the stomach to undertake a large-scale analysis of the
HIX archives in search of the "proper answers" the signers claim to have
appeared on FORUM, nor do I believe that the object of this search, namely
systematic rebuttal of the ultraright propaganda on FORUM, exists.

I emphasize that it is easy for the defenders of FORUM to prove me wrong: all
they have to do is to immerse themselves in the archives (which should not be
hard for them to do, since they don't smell the malodorous smells that I speak
of) and cite this wonderful set of "proper answers". Where are they? How many
authors generate them, and how much these authors post to FORUM? Please keep
in mind that the overall situation is not changed by a few voices in the
wilderness.  That more or less isolated dissenters such as E1va Balogh always
existed on FORUM was never in doubt: what is challenged here is the statement
that "usually" the "proper answer" prevails.

Andra1s Kornai

In Hungary #703 Eva Balogh, in a rude reply to a modest proposal, says:

>I consider these extreme opinions incompatible with democracy.

This shows that Eva lacks not only good breeding, but also a clear idea of
what democracy is.

Ferenc

At 10:53 PM 6/19/96 -0400, you wrote:
>In Hungary #703 Eva Balogh, in a rude reply to a modest proposal, says:
>
>>I consider these extreme opinions incompatible with democracy.
>
>This shows that Eva lacks not only good breeding, but also a clear idea of
>what democracy is.
>
>Ferenc
>
You know Ferenc, reading the above, one and only thought, comes to mind
regardless of whom you might have in the past, or will continue to address
these ongoingly underminding posts to.... "we all come from within" or if
you prefer, "mindenki maga'bol indul ki".  Bearing this in mind, I am hoping
that at least rarely, you will actually stop and think about this wise
Hungarian Proverb ...  if not consider it's endless implications?

Regards,
Aniko

Dear Friends,

At a press conference, the General Director of Magyar Hirlap Jozsef Kovalcsik
has announced today that Magyar Hirlap Online is now available on the WWW.

The address is:
http://www.mhirlap.hu/

Magyar Hirlap Online's language is Hungarian, but we intend to publish a
weekly (and later on, a daily) digest of current news and events in English.
The online version is updated daily. In LAP-TAR you can find the last seven
issues of Magyar Hirlap Online.
We are looking forward to welcome you on our Home Page. We hope that we have
created an interesting Hungarian web site, which will be steadily developed,
and more information will be added soon.
As one of the editors of Magyar Hirlap Online, I would appreciate receiving
any ideas, comments or suggestions.

Sincerely

Bela Dajka

***************************
Bela Dajka
Editor of Magyar Hirlap Online

E-mail: 

Magyar Hirlap
H-1087 Budapest, Kerepesi ut 29/b.
Tel.: +36(1)210-0050
Fax.: +36(1)210-0047
http://www.mhirlap.hu
For letters: 
***************************

***********************************************
Posted via MH's First Class UUCP Gateway
***********************************************