wrote:
> 
> In general, pathological liars are ignored. Unless their
> person, and/or the topic of their lies so warrants....... etc. ravings and mo
re ravings:

Andras:
You've sunk your teeth into Eva quite sometime ago and you just don't 
seem to be able to unsnap your jaws.
I am beginning to believe that you carry the problem. I don't think that 
you have the right to call her a pathological liar. But you yourself seem 
to be a pathological case of some kind. Or have some pathological 
fixation on Eva.
And, by the way, great defender of the faith, were you there in 1956? On 
Baros ter, on the Ulloi ut, at the Kilian laktanya, or at the Radio 
building on the evening of Oct. 23?
I've met a number of freedom fighters (or whatever they choose to call 
themselves: szabadsagharcos, forradalmar, felkelo, kalandor, etc.) that 
were great champions of 56 but were miles from the troubles. I was there 
and I can document it. I was in the midst of things because I was young, 
loved trouble and danger, was fascinated by guns (I grew up with 
handgranades and guns), loved the excitement and the cameraderie, loved 
to show off, etc. I browse through my diary of those days and not ones 
referred to myself of my friends as szabadsagharcos. I've just looked 
through the Hoover Institution's collection of newspapers from the days 
of the 56 revolution and your "sacred terminology" popup very seldom.
The naming of things, the attribution of terminology, often come after 
the event, after the deed. The "official" terms concerning the Hungarian 
Revolution too congealed and got stuck after the revolution, more or 
less.
I remember that only around November 4, in Austria, in the camp in 
Nickelsdorff, dawned on me that I was a refugee and freedom fighter. It 
was rather flattering. Until then I was ashamed for "having run away" and 
having been a sort of adventurer. In hindsight it was perhaps better that 
I had "run away". But the point is that for most of us the "desirable" 
names were given by foreign journalist, our hosts in the receiving 
countries. And just about any body who cared could be a refugee and a 
freedom fighter. And there were a hell of a lot of freedom fighters who 
crossed the border. It's like the wartime anti-nazi resistance and the 
partizan affiliation on the part of the communist and pro-communist. Many 
of the real freedom fighters stayed back in Hungary and suffered. And a 
lot of the pseudo-freedom fighters collected the fame and the benefits in 
the West. I've known quite a few of them. And I hope that you're not one 
of those.
I -probably as much of a  Hungarian-American and ex-freedom fighter as 
you are/were- do resent your sanctimonious, sentimentally romantic, 
ante-delluvian pronouncements and threats.
Don't you realize how mawkishly sentimental and ridiculous you sound. 
Just reread your all caps passages. And the moral tone! So you will make 
the life of persons who do not subscibe to your dogmas and formulas hell!
You silly ass. Where the hell you think you're living. If you think that 
you're in Stalin's empire you're way off. Wake up man. You're in 
California, in the Sillicon Valley, where -as Stanford's president G. 
Caspar parphrased a phrase from Schiller's ode- the winds of freedom 
blow., i. e. feedom of though, speech, etc. This is neither nazi-Germany 
nor Stalin's Evil empire. So, start acting like a free citizen of a free 
country. You must have been  here long enough to have realized what 
America is about. 
Sincerely, Laszlo horvath

In article >,  (Andras Kornai)
wrote:

> Joe Pannon writes:

> > I recall
> > quite well the make-up of the BME Admission Committee (Felveteli
> > Bizottsag) and the kind of questions they asked.  One thing they
> > definitely were curious about is my religion and how I was relating to
> > it.  Somehow it was obvious to me that they did not rate high my being a
> > Catholic.

> I bet this was in the sixties. There were even worse things: the medical
> school maintained a separate, much tougher, examination committee for student
s
> coming from religious schools. But by the seventies these practices have
> largely ended. 

So people who were 18 in 1965 when you say that there was widespread 
persecution would be in their mid 50's today. Most of them would still be 
alive and all of them would be morally deserving of compensation wouldn't 
you say? Even by your own statements there is some moral debt owed to a 
wide part of the population. From the way you structure your statements, 
it is obvious that you would like to minimize the people who you have to 
admit are morally owed compensation.

> > I would not be so proud of that support [by the constitutional court]

> Well us Ka1da1r Jugend felt rather good about it, it being the highest 
> court of the land and all. 

Was it a just opinion? Reread the subject line. It isn't a question of 
legality but morality. Whether the court system is moral in most countries 
is a hotly debatable topic. Even in the US the idea of the court as an 
automatic standardbearer for morality would get you derision and disbelief.

> > (That's Damianiuk, BTW, and they did not let him go just out of their
> > generosity, but due to lack of (or false) evidence.)

> Since when does lack of evidence stop people from killing someone if they
> really want vengeance? It seems the people of Israel no longer want vengeance
> the same way they wanted it at the time of the Eichmann trial. At least they 
> don't want it hard enough to cloud their sense of justice. 

That's an interesting way of looking at the Israeli justice system. 
Convictions are motivated by vengeance, not justice. Acquitals are a 
sign that the thirst for vengeance has been slaked. What a bizarre view 
of life and justice.

DB

-- 
The Romanian Political Pages               http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus
Now available: The Romanian constitution in Romanian, an URL minder
Coming soon: An expanded Ilascu section, and victims of communism memorial!
These posts are not official PNT-cd policy unless specifically marked as such.

I am using a friends e-mail address to try to contact fellow 
Hungarians from Transylvania living in the UK.
Please leave a message on    
or phone/fax Mrs. Agnes White on 01553 769742.


Thanks, Agnes.

-- 

David Clay   

In article >, Ivan Marinov
> wrote:

> Yes, human life begins with conception. 

    Not true. Human life begins when the fetus takes on all the properties
human life has; pivotal here is the function of the brain, which doesn't
begin until well into the 6-7 month of gestation.
    NEVERTHELESS, the woman ALWAYS has the right to decide what to do with
her body, including the right to abort her fetus.

    Boris Docevski )
    http://www.isc.rit.edu/~bvs4997/Macedonia (Virtual Macedonia)
    http://www.erc.msstate.edu/~vkire/faq (Macedonia FAQ)
    http://www.lebisol.com (Leb i Sol)

T. Kocsis  > wrote:

>This clearly indicates that Maria's nearist relatives not
>the mongol or europian races but the goats.

Or the visigoats, eh? ;-)

Joe

Maria Egorov, you are always telling people to read history. Please, check
you also your knowledge about history and civilizations.

You said, talking about Germans, that they were the ARYAN nations. Sorry?
I thought the one and only Aryan were the Iranian peoples.
Don't fall in the same stupid pretension as Hitler did. 
-- 
Juan Carlos Azkoitia         

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On Wed, 10 Jul 1996, Boris Docevski wrote:

>     Not true. Human life begins when the fetus takes on all the properties
> human life has; pivotal here is the function of the brain, which doesn't
> begin until well into the 6-7 month of gestation.
>     NEVERTHELESS, the woman ALWAYS has the right to decide what to do with
> her body, including the right to abort her fetus.

  Docevski, who the hell is asking your oppinion on the subject.
  And why don't I see soc.culture.macedonia, in the list above???
  Seems like you spend more time in our newsgroup, then in your own.
  I would assume they don't discuss anything new, 'cept for the new
  underwear of Kiro Grigorov.....
  If you are such a devoted anti-bulgarian, why are you taking part
  in our discussions.....I call that slimy hypocrism.
  Not that its not typical of a fyromian....:)



  j.nail

Kozly, skol'ko mogno ?

Zaymites' chem-nibud' bolee poleznym.






In article >,  (alex) writes:
>In article >, 
mc.edu 
>says...
>>
>>In article >,  wrote:
>>
>>> In article >,
 (Mikhail Alexeyev) writes:
>>> >In article >, alex wrote:
>>> >
>>> > 
>>> >> 
>>> >> In democratic, civilized countries, the native language is 
>>> >> *always* used for official purposes.  
>>> >
>>> > That doesn't mean that neither native language is the only one used in
>>> >those countries nor that this role of native language is constitutionally
>>> >protected.  
>>> 
>>> Ukrainan is not the only language used in Ukriane, and 
>>> nobody is going to change that.
>>
>>As one can notice, your remark does not address my note.
>
>Ah Mr. Alexyev!
>You are still here! And still losing!
>Frankly, my note was addressed to the other fellow,
>seeing as how you didn't address it last time in a public
>post but instead chose to do so by E-mail.
>Then you backed away for some reason.
>{There is a post com-m-m-ing for you! :}
>You also seize this moment to pretend to the net public that 
>quite the opposite is occuring, you sly old fox, you! :))))
>
>
>> Are you trying to
>>change subject? Or just talking to yourself?
>
>No, No, No!
>I am speaking with you now :)
>You have my fullest, and rapt attention, my dear fellow! :)
>
>> 
>>> >For a reasonable model for Ukraine one may consider Belgium.
>> 
>> 
>>> Belgium consists of two distinct parts - French-speaking
>>> and Flemish - speaking. Can you draw the same border
>>> in Ukraine (between Russian- and Ukrainian- speaking parts) ?
>>
>>I addressed this before.
>
>No, No, No, No!
>You did not Sir!
>Well, at least not publicly....
>So I posted a public copy for * all *  to see! :)
>Do not thank me, yet!
>
>
>> In Belgium if one lives in Wallonia, he/she
>>automatically considered French-speakin and if one lives in Flandria
>>he/she is considered Dutch-speaking. Only inhabitants of central provionce
>>were Brussels is located have a right to choose and considered bilingual
>>officially. 
>>Actually, there are 3 communities in Belgium (French- Flemish- and
>>Gernman- speaking ones), but only two official languages (German community
>>is only about 68, 000 -150,000 people or 0.68%-1.5% of total population).
>>Each community has its own legislature, finances and administration. These
>>institutional organs have exclusive power within the territory of the
>>Community
>>in all matters assigned to them and are able to pass so-called decrees,
>>legislative norms which are not subordinated to national laws and which
>>themselves have the force of law. This is a result of reforms that started
>>in 60-th.  German-speaking Community and it's autonomy are
>>considered by a great many experts to be a real pearl of the reform and a
>>remarkable example of what can be done if a state is really willing to respec
t
>>differences and not to impose upon a minority the views of the majority in al
l
>>those matters in which the specific differences of the minority, such as
>>language and culture play an important role.
>>
>>If one looks carefully in this formula, he/she can see that Belgium is
>>divided according to PREVAILING (nb, this is a keyword) language. Of
>>corse, one can do the same in Ukraine. Can you now tell me why ukrainian
>>nationalists would rather die that accept this formula?
>>
>>I know what your answer is going to be.
>
>No you don't! :)
>
>
>> You will point your finger at
>>Russia and Ukrainians there (who, BTW, quite happy with Russian). Am I
>>wrong?
>
>Indeed you are! :)
>
>>
>>regards,
>>M.A.
>
>Still deeper regards,
>
>alex
>
>PS
>Stay tuned Mr. Alexyev!
>And PLEASE do not run away, away again! :) 
>

Dr. Attila Szabo wrote:
> 
> Egy segitokesz embert keresek akinek van e-mailje Szatmarnemetiben
> hogy egy par uzenetet kozvetitsen apamnak mikozben Kanadai latogatasat
> probalom megszervezni. Igazan halas lennek a segitsegert.
> 
> Elore is sok koszonettel,
> 
> Szabo Attila
> 
> E-mail: 
> 
> ======= The following has been added by the mailer software =======
> 
> subs/unsubs info - mailto:
> digest - mailto:

A Szatmarnemetiben levo Kolcsey Ferenc Kozepsiskola a kvari 
Soros-kozponton keresztul be van kotve az Internetbe, s e-mail programja 
van. "Contact persons" az iskolatol e-mail-ezes vegett:

      Egyedi Attila   
      Balint Zsuzsa   

Sikert kivanok,  Kovalszki Peter

I pity those who wish to sound authentic about 1956
by name dropping such as  "were you there in 1956? On
Baros ter, on the Ulloi ut, at the Kilian laktanya, or
at the Radio building on the evening of Oct. 23?"

Not that there is anything wrong with "name dropping" -
if the idiot could actually spell the names.

But poor Laszlo Horvath (Gestapo/AVO/KGB man) cannot. There was
(and there is) NO "Baros ter" (wrong sp!) in Budapest; there is
only (several) Baross ter and (several) Baross utca. (It seems,
Horvath has no idea who Baross Gabor was, anyway). Poor Horvath
obviously wasn't there at the Radio where the battle started,
otherwise would not refer to it "on the evening" - since
gunfire started only at night, close to 10 P.M., and would remember
the name of the street (Bro'dy Sandor utca). And actually
there was not much at the Kilian laktanya "on the evening
of Oct. 23" - as the battle at Kilian laktanya only started
on the 24th. (There was a little activity; some conscripts in
the huge barrack handed out their rifles through some windows
to Freedomfighters - but that was in the wee hours of 24th)

As for "Baros ter"; Horvath is wrong threefold.

Spelling is a trivial mistake, but if he means "Baross ter"
he clearly does not know what he is talking about. NOTHING
happened in Baross ter (on which Keleti railway terminal is
located) -- this strategic point was held with overwhelming
force and was never challenged by Freedomfighters. For weeks,
thereafter, there was but a single Soviet tank at the
intersection with Fiumei ut, barrel pointing along Rakoczi ut.
But as a third mistake, it is rather obvious, that Horvath meant
Boraros ter, rather then Baros(s).

However, even at Boraros ter there was NOTHING on the eve of
Tuesday, the 23rd, as Soviet tanks started to roll from Soroksari
ut, turning right to Ferenc korut at Boraros ter only in the
morning of 24th of October. And for downtown Baross utca, for
that matter,the only worthwile thing to mention for the 23rd
was a handful of trucks, NO armored personnel carriers, only
ordinary trucks,hauling in a whiffy stonefaced young soldiers
- obviously scared wittless- turning the corner from Baross
utca to Muzeum korut, and then turning right again into Brody
Sandor utca at the Muzeum kavehaz, slowed to a halt by the
crowd there, at about 11 P.M.)

So much for the obviously sloppy recall of events by "Horvath".

Now for the "szabadsagharcosok". Earlier, I took the time for
the "Hungary"-list (when someone with similar bad knowledge
and even worse intentions engaged in "freedomfight-denial")
to properly reference in accepted publications 41 instances
(the first from the 24th of October, 1956) when our heroes
were called SZABADSAGHARCOSOK. (Persons used the term were of
an extremely wide spectrum, including Maleter Pal, Kiraly Bela,
Gergely Pongratz, Cardinal Mindszenty). It is a primitive lie
that the term was concocted abroad, and after the Revolution
and Freedomfight. I will not repeat the 41 pieces of evidence
I cared to collect (there are literally thousands). It speaks,
indeed, better than anything about Horvath that he used the name
Freedomfighter for HIS financial and egoistic satisfaction,
gaining personal profit from the Freedomfight of 1956, yet
denies it for those who DIED IN FREEDOMFIGHT. This is the "man".

I used number 41, since in the OJ Simpson trial this was
the number of an evidence - and proud "Americans", like Horvath,
have proven to the World that one can get away with double
murder - no matter what evidence shows and how many times.

And I wish I could appropriately call Horvath "silly ass", but
that would not be fair. A "silly ass" is not malicious
and Gestapo/KGB/AVO-type, like Horvath is, who brownnoses
everywhere, to make his nose more to his taste. Kornai and
whatshername let go - now its Horvath's turn to be up in my ass,
and badmouth Freedomfighters at the same time. Clearly, a
third-rate effort, an utterly boring epigon.

For Horvath's feeble attempt at "patriotism", maybe some at Hoover
can teach him some lesson that it DOES appear to be "American"
for members of small and proud nation to speak up, and FIGHT the
Holocaust-deniers and FIGHT those spineless who either did not
take part in the Hungarian Freedomfight of 1956, or escaped
it alive -- AND don't feel that they OWE the name to those who
gave their (mostly very young) lives to Freedom of Hungary.
Is Horvath chicken enough to be footsoldier among Freedomfight-deniers
only, or is he brave to be an officer of "Holocaust-deniers", too?

In general, it is very "American" to stand up for Freedom and
fight those who wish to trample Freedom to death.

Except in 1956, that is. At that time, most in America just
sat on their silly ass and did nothing to help Freedomfighters
of Hungary as they bled to their deaths.

And except in 1996, when brownnosing liberal idiots claim
themselves to be "American" (to qualify to ruin her), and dare to
take away even the name of those who fought - and died! -
for Freedom.

Andras Kornai > wrote:

>What treatment? Simonyi was a full professor, my father was not once invited
>to the University of Economics to give a lecture, in spite of being a rather
>well known economist. This is not strictly true: the students (dia1kko2r) did
>invite him, but the rectors, deans, and provosts of Karl Marx University of
>Economics knew quite well he was a "traitor to marxism".

Oops, I did not intend to include your dad's name in the list until I saw your
reference to "emigration".  From this I assumed he persued his Western academic
career with the blessing of the Kadar regime.  Otherwise I've never heard the
term "emigration" used in connection with Hungarians who left the country
without the permission of the Communist government.  This includes those, who
refused to return when their visa called for it.  Such people *fled* the
country, not emigrated.  In my book, at least ...

Now, as to the rectors, deans, etc. not inviting him ... I wonder how
much of that was due to following the Party line and how much just simple
professional jealousy.  Experience in the last 7 years taught me how much
jealousy toward the emigres is there.

>In brief, both he and
>Simonyi belonged into the "tolerated" category, as opposed to the "supported"
>and the "banned" categories, forming the "ta1mogatott/tu3rt/tiltott"
>(supported/tolerated/banned) classification so characteristic of the period.

I think you're painting with a broad brush here.  Since the case of Simonyi
was several times mentioned in the HIX FORUM (and perhaps SZALON, as well),
even you should know that there is no parallel here.  He was essentially
forced to an "internal exile" which he used to write his famous tome on the
cultural history of physics.  I'm not familiar with the details of your dad's
"emigration", but from what you were saying, he was shunned *after* his
leaving the country.  Was I getting this wrong too, and he was already
"blacklisted" before his leave?  If he was, how was it manifested?

>Have you seen the movie portrait of Andra1s Balczo1, famous Hungarian
>pentathlete (o2ttusa1zo1)? He talks quite a bit how he decided on o2ttusa,
>because it was objective, not that he was a born pentathlete.

Funny that you should mention Balczo, of all people, as an example to prove
*your* point.  I still think, however, that math is more of an inborn talent
than athletics.  I don't think brain power can be developed as much through
exercise and perseverence as physical abilities, but that's probably arguable.

>I bet this was in the sixties. There were even worse things: the medical
>school maintained a separate, much tougher, examination committee for students
>coming from religious schools. But by the seventies these practices have
>largely ended.

Sure it was, but it was then when much of today's elite entrenched itself
through those unfair advantages.

>Joe, it is nice of you to have so definite opinions on every matter,

You mean only you can have them?

>I was
>actually there and you were not -- for some reason, people didn't put you on
>the mailing list discussing why CSEPPSZ are so wretched and how to deal with
>it:-) I still have my correspondance from that period, and believe me, Lex
>Ze1te1nyi had nothing to do with it.

I don't care what you were discussing privately about that.  One can easily
follow the events with the help of FORUM archives.  Anybody can check it.

>Well us Ka1da1r Jugend felt rather good about it, it being the highest
>court of the land and all.

Why don't you tell the outsiders then how the members of that body were
selected in '89; how many were selected by the outgoing communist government
and how many by the opposition.  This court was meant to save the hide of
the former communist rulers and act as a trottle to the pace of changes.

>Do you think that every issue must be decided by plebiscete? It seems to me
>that such a complex issue is very hard to cast into a short and clear
>series of yes/no questions, that it is exactly the kind of issue you want
>the legislators to deal with.

Since the legislators have not been willing to submit themselves to a thorough
lustration, they can hardly be expected to pass laws that would mandate an
accounting of communist era crimes.  That's why issues like that, as well as
their compensation and conflict of interest issues should be handled above
their heads.

>I know you are among the few who question the
>legitimacy of the whole Hungarian system, constitutional court and all, but
>don't you see that the most vengeful retributionists in MIE1P never get
>anything approaching 5% of the vote? It's like recovery of Transylvania: the
>vast majority couldn't care less.

I think following the Czech example would also be a good start.  If
MIEP had as much control over the national media as your ilk have, I'm sure
the 5% could easily be on the other side.  At least on the retribution issue.
And what has irredentism to do with this, unless as a cheap trick to line up
DB on your side?

>I agree the vote was largely a pocketbook issue, but even so it made clear
>that communist past, even rabid communist past, is no "lithmus test" for
>the electorate.

Only because compared to today's economic situation, the '70s and '80s look
good in comparison.  And they don't think the pre-70s type of Communism has
any chance of return.  It's a case study for Maslow's hierarchy-of-needs
piramyd.

>Whether they've been fooled I'm not so sure, but election
>is two years away, let's wait with the campaign stuff.

After the successful and repeated deployment of the "Salami tactics" against
the right, I don't expect big surprises in '98.

>I never saw the point of this counterargument. Jews can be antisemites.

It could then be interesting to watch how they sort it out who can call the
other legitimately an anti-semite.

>Csoo1ri's
>private life has nothing to do with it, it's his public opinions that matter.

Or rather how Kornai and his self-appointed fellow "judges" rate his public
opinions.

>I dislike
>the tendency of the ultraright to operate along Hitlerian laws and classify
>people like Be1la Kun or Ma1tya1s Ra1kosi as Jews.

I, too, dislike the tendency of many leftists to assume that anything negative
that happens to them is due to anti-semitism.  You can't expect one without
the other.

>I'm not criticizing you for
>criticizing communists, I'm criticizing you for the view that communists are a
>"Jewish (or mostly Jewish)" group. They are not, and they never were.

There you go again.  I'd like you to provide cites from me where I made such
blanket statements.

>> So what are all these Wiesenthal centers for?

>I don't know, how many are there in Hungary? How much hunting of nazis is
>taking place?

I was talking not necessarily about Hungarian practices only, but about the
general principle.  The fact is that former nazies are still hunted wherever
they are found.  And the victims of that hunt are more often found innocent
later than guilty.  I'm not only talking about John Demianiuk, but such
distinguished Hungarians as Ferenc Koreh, a former correspondent to VOA
and RFE, as well as the long time voice of New York's Hungarian radio
program (along with Geza Ziegler).  So why are those hunts not considered
"witch hunts"?

>> (That's Damianiuk, BTW, and they did not let him go just out of their
>> generosity, but due to lack of (or false) evidence.)

>Since when does lack of evidence stop people from killing someone if they
>really want vengeance? It seems the people of Israel no longer want vengeance
>the same way they wanted it at the time of the Eichmann trial. At least they
>don't want it hard enough to cloud their sense of justice.

That's BS!  It was not the lack of desire for vengeance on the part of
Israelis that stopped the wrongful prosecution of John Demianiuk, but the
negative publicity the case generated for Israeli justice.

Joe Pannon

Dolf van Stijgeren wrote:
> 
>  (Peter Szaszvari) wrote:
> 
> >In article >,
> >   conny van der wilk <conny van der >
> >wrote:
> >>Dear .....,
> >>
> >>I love you in Dutch is "ik hou van jou". Dutch is the language
> >of the
> >>Netherlans (that is Holland).
> >>
> >>I don't know how to use internet very well. So I hope you will
> >answer me
> >>when you read this, to tell me that I did it right.
> >>
> >>with love Conny
> >>
> >>
> >I am sorry, but Conny's addres was not valid so I could not reach
> >him personally.
> 
> >So dear Conny,
> 
> >I am sorry but you did it wrong.
> >You sent your post to 10 newsgroups where nobody was interested,
> >instead of sending it to that single idiot who started this
> >thread.
> 
> >Szaszvari Peter
> >(http://iap11.ethz.ch/users/szp/szp.htm)
> 
> I'm "impressed" by your language. regarding that "idiot" and Connie...
> Feel better? (What's your problem?)
> 
> Dolf van Stijgeren
> The Netherlands
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> steps taken forwards
>                    sleepwalking back again

Hello everybody round there !
I'm a Malagasy people and 'm very glad to translate here the sentence in
my own language, so !

	"Tiako ianao"

Just two words ...

Waiting to read you again
Bye !

 (Maria Egorov) claims:
|Lets put it like this, do you think Albert Einstein after arriving in 
|United States, started to yell "I am a German"?.NOT AT ALL.

I don't think he was yelling any message. I'm a fifth generation Canadian
and I've never yelled - "I am a Canadian." NOT AT ALL. Do you yell out your
nationality or ethnicity. The salient point is that Albert never <denied>
his roots.

Maria Egorov asks:
|Do you really think that the Jews from Hungary (those who escaped the 
|death camps) came to United States and proudly said:"I am a Hungarian" or 
|"long live Hungary"? 

They are more likely to say, Death to the fascist government, than to say
Death to Hungary and Hungarians. They are more likely to say they are
Hungarian, but absolutely they would not say, I am a fascist. These are the
nuances that you are unable to appreciate.

If you read George Faludy's autobiographical book, My Happy Days In Hell,
you'd find that he had no problem with being a Hungarian and Jew. He made
absolutely no effort to hide nor to even play down the fact. He was neither
ashamed of being Hungarian nor Jewish. He certainly didn't BECOME AMERICAN.
Although he moved to Toronto for a couple decades, and appreciated it more
than any other place, he remained a proud Hungarian and Jew, even with
Canadian citizenship. I knew other Hungarians and Jews and they never
expressed the kind of crap you think they do.

Maria Egorov continues to query:
|Do you really think that these same Jews(only older)would change their
|minds just because you changed the government?. Or because the new
|government is experimenting with the art of Public Relations?.Or because
|Germany&Austria,the masters of Public Relations and your traditional
|friends, are advancing the idea that Hungary is the most progressive
|democracy in Eastern Europe?.

What "traditional friends"?? I'd say Poland, Czech Republic and Hungary are
more Western than Slovakia, Romania, the Balkans and consequently more
inclined to share and practice liberal democracy. In this regard, yes
Hungary is one of the most progressive democracies in Central (aka Eastern)
Europe. Do you claim otherwise?

Maria Egorov claims:
|Any gesture of public relation(like inviting Jews to your home,etc.)will 
|attenuate the pain,but they will definitely not become the Hungarians,
|Austrians or Germans you wish them to be(PERIOD) 

I don't wish them to become anything other than what they are. You are silly
to suggest that George Faludy increased his identity-pain (angst) just
because he visited my home. How incredibly stupid you are(PERIOD)

Maria Egorov declares:
|In the past Hungary, Germany & Austria called the Slavs,Jews&Gipsies:
|"RATS"&"SUBHUMAN"

Yes, too many Hungarians, Germans and Austrians, but I would not claim that
the nation of Hungarian did. You are indulging in the broad brush approach
of nationalistic slander, which is a chauvinist streak you share with Gabor
Barsai when he claims that Canadians are uneducated. Similar claims are made
by rednecks about "niggers" being uneducated, or nazis that Jews and Gypsies
did not deserve education, indeed, a couple steps more and they decided that
they didn't need life at all.

Maria Egorov claims:
|This mentality still persists in Hungary and it is hidden as it is in 
|Germany and Austria of today. 

A minority of Hungarians continue with this mentality. Do you suggest that
such a mentality is prevalent throughout Hungary? and that the current
government shares such a repugnant mentality that it is now implementing
anti-Jewish legislation? I think not -- quite the opposite. Sorry, Maria,
unless you can come up with some real life, concrete examples to support
your racist contentions, then I don't think you will be able to convince
anyone of your thesis.

Maria Egorov states:
|In these circumstances I know that there are no Jews who would proudly
|say:I am a Hungarian.

In those circumstances I know and can name several Jews who are proudly
Hungarian and live in Hungary. The fact that you do not know of any may be
because you are an anti-semite.

Maria Egorov indignantly asks:
|You are accusing me of being a racist?. 

Yes I am. Everything you post is based on the thesis of racism. The world,
as you view it revolves around race or nationality or ethnicity. It is all
you focus on. 

Maria Egorov indignantly declares:
|Mr.,this is an unconvincing statement and it has to do with your ability of
|comprehension.

You fail to comprehend the very real fact that there are Hungarian Jews (and
I know them, personally) who are proudly Hungarian. You are unable to accept
that reality.

[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]

Now I have been gracious enough to reply to your specific contentions, but
you have failed to specifically address mine. I post them here again, and
ask that you reply directly to each and every FACT as presented:

|(Maria Egorov) wrote:
||I should remind you that the Nobel Prize Winners you prezented to us are 
||all nonHungarians. 
|
|Liviu Iordache presented from Brittanica:
|]Wigner, Eugene Paul, (b.Nov.17,1902,Budapest,Hung.)
|]Olah, George A. in full GEORGE ANDREW OLAH (b.May 22,1927,Budapest,Hung.) 
|
|Wally Keeler wrote:
|>Being born in Hungary's capital city confers no Hungarianness upon a
|>person? Growing up within Hungary, within the Hungarian language, within
|>the Hungarian culture, within the Hungarian educational system confers no
|>Hungarianness upon a person? In spite of this Wigner and Olah cannot be
|>regarded as Hungarians or should be regarded as "nonHungarians" as you put
|>it? Please explain Maria Egorov. Please do. 

Please explain to all the Hungarians reading soc.culture.magyar why Eugene
Paul Wigner and George A Olah are "nonHungarians". If you cannot adequately
explain this, then I suggest you leave s.c.m.

|Maria Egorov explained:
||Another point which you should remember:
||The Hungarians sent over 300,000 Jews to forced labor camps and GAS
|>                                     \
|>                                      and the cigany, don't forget
|>                                      the despised subhuman cigany.
||
||CHAMBERS during WW2. (activity which was concluded proudly by the
||Hungarians, without German supervision). 
|             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|Adolf Eichmann was only a clerk right?

     Well, tell us what the Britannica says about Adolf Eichmann, 
     Maria. Look it up and post the answer. We'll compare notes 
     and see whether your absurd and unfounded claim that their 
     was no "German [nazi] supervison" of the Jewish assembly 
     line to the death camps is true or not

|Maria Egorov claimed:
||Knowing these facts, do you think it is easy for the Jews born in Hungary,
||survivors of the holocaust, (who are living abroad for obvious reasons) to
||identify themselves as Hungarians? NOT AT ALL.
|
|Wally Keeler wrote:
|Wrong. The great Hungarian poet, George Faludy, visited my home several
|times. He is a Jew. He suffered at the hands of the Nazis. He also suffered
|at the hands of the Communists. He is proud of his Hungarian identity, his
|Hungarian language, his Hungarian culture. In spite of 20 fruitful and
|peaceful years in Toronto, Canada, his Hungarianness compelled him to
|return to his beloved Hungary to end his days in his homeland.
|
|A good friend of Faludy's, George Egri, also a Hungarian Jew, who lived in
|Toronto for decades, returned to Hungary after the Communists ate dirt. He
|was a journalist and columnist in Toronto. I had many visits with him at
|his home and mine. When I met up with him in Budapest, he waxed poetic
|about being "home, I am home again." George Egri also suffered the same
|situation as George Faludy.
|
|Another good friend of George Faludy and George Egri, who is also a
|Hungarian Jew, and who shared their experience in Hungary -- also had been
|imprisoned together in the infamous Rajk concentration camp, although not
|returning to Hungary (because he has a good life in Canada) does not
|forsake his Hungarianness. His name is George Gabori. His experiences can
|be read in his book, WHEN EVILS WERE MOST FREE.
|
|I'm afraid, your claim that "NOT AT ALL" has no basis in fact. Your type of
|claim, that Jews are Jews, and can never be One with the native culture of
|any nation, is the mark of an anti-semite. A Jew can be every bit as much
|of a Hungarian as a Catholic Hungarian can be Hungarian. 

       In the case of the three Hungarian Jews I know of above, 
       they committed their pride of their Hungarianness and 
       Jewishness to published writing. You can't get more public 
       than that. Now I suggest you re-think your absurd and 
       unfounded claim of "NOT AT ALL". 

|Maria Egorov claimed:
||The Hungarians sent over 300,000 Jews to forced labor camps and GAS
||CHAMBERS during WW2. (activity which was concluded proudly by the
||Hungarians, 
|
|Wally Keeler wrote:
|This should read "Some Hungarians sent over ... (activity which was
|concluded proudly by a few Hungarians..." 

     If I rewrote your statement to say as follows:

             Some Hungarians sent over 300,000 Jews to forced 
             labor camps and GAS CHAMBERS during WW2. (activity 
             which was concluded proudly by a few Hungarians...

     would you find that agreeable? Let us know how you view the 
     truth and reality. I think if you said it this way, it would 
     indicate reasonableness and that you have a bit of balance. 
     Otherwise, the following prevails:

|Wally Keeler wrote:
|Your method of stating it, Maria, suggests that you may well be a racist
|slanderer; it is similar to the nationalist, chauvinist blather of that
|DUNGarian, Gabor Barfsai who claims, "I know it's a contradiction to be a
|Canadian and be educated." Individuals who slander entire peoples with the
|broad brush of pejorative archtypes, are simply incapable of discoursing in
|a manner that appreciates the nuances and particulars of the mosaic of
|life. The same thread appears to pass through Maria and Gagbore Barfsai.

-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

Maria,
As you managed to piss off quite some people in the past few days (weeks) would
you please hint who you are talking (writting) to before you start your 
tirades? (Assuming that you REALLY have to write at all, which I doubt.)
Thanks!
GK

In article >,
Denes S. Varady > wrote:
>>>Why in the World would the World owe anything for that? Only Russia is
>>>responsible for crashing it.
>>>GK
>What happened to the "Dulles-Eisenhower Doctrine"??

It was used and abused.

>WHO invited the SOVIETS in?

Those leaders of the Communist party, who were fequently trained and debriefed 
in Moscow.

>Was the US State Dept. without fault?

Good question. My bet is yes.

>---There was no such a country as "Russia" at that time..

Yes there was. And it was the leading force of the Union of Soviet Socialist
Republics.

>--
>Denes S. Varady,  N3NV
>

How in the word did this come out again?
GK

Greetings everyone!

	Initially Maria's comments annoyed me, than I finally
	had enought and wrote to her suggesting that she 
	crawl back under whatever rock she crawled out from
	and not continue her ignorant remarks with such 
	persistance.

	She wrote back to me, telling me I am 'a terrible woman'.
	Without a doubt there  are times I am, but wihout having
	met me -- she's really not in a position to say.

	Reading Wally Keelers comments in such fine shading
	and meticulous detail -- perhaps I was too hasty
	faulting Maria for her persistance.  She provided
	the reason and the vehicle to bring out things that
	need to be said.

	By the way, I was born and raised in Hungary.  I am,
	before anything else, a Hungarian.  My citizenship
	is currently U.S. and therefore my loyalty is owed
	to this country until such a time if/when I decide to
	leave it.

	My former father-in-law was a member of parliament
	during the war and in a position to save some, unfortunately
	all Jews and removed from the wagons.  Some of the ones
	that were saved, to show their gratitude no doubt, 
	returned after the war and named him amongst those
	who were on the side of the nazis.  Thanks to those
	among them the actress Bayor Gizi had come forward to
	testify on his behalf -- the charges were dropped.

	Sainthood is not bestowed on anyone for ethnic origin
	and apparently suffering does not necessarily make us
	think either.  Accepting that humanity is wretched
	without God is probably as close to reality as we
	are likely to get.

	Julie

In article >,
Gyorgy Kovacs > wrote:
>>WHO invited the SOVIETS in?
>
>Those leaders of the Communist party, who were fequently trained and debriefed
                                     Oops, I meant 'frequently'
>in Moscow.
>
>How in the word did this come out again?
>GK         ^^^^ Oops #2, I meant World.

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