Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 933
Copyright (C) HIX
1997-03-05
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Health care. (mind)  52 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Health care. (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Health care (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Health care. (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
5 Lecture: The Habsburg Heritage and the Idea of a Unifie (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
6 Fwd: koszonet (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
7 Fwd: koszonet (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
8 Fwd: NATO-enlargement (mind)  37 sor     (cikkei)
9 Fwd: NATO-enlargement (mind)  37 sor     (cikkei)
10 HL-Action: write New President at World Court (mind)  66 sor     (cikkei)
11 HL-Action: write New President at World Court (mind)  66 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Health care (mind)  51 sor     (cikkei)
13 NATO Disputes (mind)  50 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Health care. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Joe
Szalai > writes:

>Subject:       Re: Health care.
>From:  Joe Szalai >
>Date:  Tue, 4 Mar 1997 12:36:02 -0500
>
>On Tue, 4 Mar 1997, Sam Stowe wrote:
>
>Joe Szalai wrote:
><snip>
>> > It's like
>> >living in a democracy where everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, has a vote.
>You
>> >know, at one time, not very long ago, only those who owned property, or
>were
>> >white, or were men, could vote.  Your health care system isn't quite there
>> >but it sure isn't universal like ours.
>>
>> Argument by non-sequitur. Who would have expected that of you?
>
>And who would have thought that you'd get hung-up on rhetorical niceties?
>It doesn't become you, Sam.

It's not a rhetorical nicety, Joe. It's a logical inconsistency. That you
cannot tell the difference between the two systems speaks volumes.

>
>> >In America, if you're sick and need good health care, you'd better have a
>> >healthy wallet, or purse.
>>
>> In America, if you're sick you go to the nearest hospital and get treated.
>In
>> Canada, apparently, you can run your mouth at extreme length on topics of
> which
>> you have no empirical knowledge whatsoever.
>
>Nor first-hand personal experience.  However I'm still glad it's there in
>case people need it.

Yeah, and one way or another it gets paid for. Sometimes I think our
ramshackle, provisional way of providing medical care is a metaphor for the
American penchant of governance through blind optimism.
Sam Stowe





"North Carolinians will vote dry for as
long as they can stagger to the polls."
--Will Rogers
+ - Re: Health care. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hi, Andy!

In article >, Andy Kozma
> writes:

>>Hey Guys what about if you are sick you go to your Doctor.Why run to the
>hospital?Is this an emrgency?
>Empirical knowledge,would you translate this for an un educated non
>emperious emperor.

That would be "empiror" in your case, Andy. It means you rule your domain
through direct observation of what your various vassals, serfs and varlets are
up to.

>If you want 1st hand knowledge Sam,in the past 2 years I had 2 shoulder
>surgerys.
>One on each side.1st I visited my phisician,who recommended a surgeon.I saw
>him,and a week later I had the operation.I had to wait that long since they
>use the operating rooms for different surgerys.
>Is this so bad?Next day I was out,and started phisiotherapy,all paid by our
>awful canadian health system.

If you're satisfied, that's what counts. Andy, I don't know how to make it
plain to you that I have no problem with the Canadian health care system. None
whatsoever. And I've said that several times in several different ways in past
posts. How's the coverage for hearing loss in the Canadian system?
Sam Stowe





"North Carolinians will vote dry for as
long as they can stagger to the polls."
--Will Rogers
+ - Re: Health care (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 07:34 PM 3/4/97 -0500, Eva Balogh wrote:

>        Let's not get too involved with the pros and cons of Canadian versus
>American health care. One can only say that both are extremely expensive in
>comparison to some European countries. I may be wrong but my recollection is
>that the Canadian is even more expensive than the American (that is, a
>larger percentage of the GDP goes for health care than in the United States
>which is hard to believe).

Hungarians should follow the Canadian system of health care.  It costs less
than the American system and it covers everyone, equally.  There are many
reasons why the American system costs more, and one of the reasons is that
Canadians aren't sue-happy like the Americans.  Canadians rarely get
involved in malpractice suits against doctors.  Another obvious reason is
that doctors don't need extra staff just to process the insurance claims.

If Hungarians wanted to give more work, and lots and lots of money to
lawyers and insurance companies, neither of which promote health, then they
should choose the American system.  But I'll tell you, if  all Hungarians
won't have, more or less, egual access to health care, they're going to ask
the obvious question of why they opted for the "free market".

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Health care. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 02:10 AM 3/5/97 GMT, Sam Stowe, responding to Andy Kozma, wrote:

>How's the coverage for hearing loss in the Canadian system?

It's like eye care.  It's not what it should be.  The health plan covers the
examination but only a percentage of the cost of the prescription.  And
that's an unnecessary hardship for many people.  Mind you, if you're on
welfare, it's paid for.

Joe Szalai
+ - Lecture: The Habsburg Heritage and the Idea of a Unifie (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear fellow-listmembers,

I thought this might be of interest to some readers on this list, maybe
there's even someone who could go?  Or there'll be press coverage?

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 10:47:43 +100
From: Irina Popova >

        The Central European University History Department

                  presents a public lecture by

                        GEORG HABSBURG
          Hungary's ambassador to the European Community
              member of the Pan European movement

             THE HABSBURG HERITAGE AND THE IDEA
                      OF A UNIFIED EUROPE

                      reception to follow

                 Tuesday, March 11, at 3:00
                      Gellner Room # 103
                          Nador utca 9,
                             Budapest
+ - Fwd: koszonet (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

---------------------
Forwarded message:
From:    (NICKL =?iso-8859-2?Q?K=E1roly?=)
To:     
CC:     
Date: 97-03-05 05:03:13 EST

Kedves Bela batyam!

Koszonom soraidat, felhasznalom honlapotokrol amit tudok.

Az itteni holland VOLKSKRANT napilapban megjelent februr 13.-an egy cikk
"Magyarok es Szlovakok civakodnak a Duna-vizen" cim alatt. Lenyegeben
arra mutat ra, hogy a szlovakok semmilyen kompromisszumra nem voltak
hajlandok az elmult idoszakban, semilyen figyelmeztetest nem vettek
figyelembe, es egy mindenkinek bemutathato presztizsprojektet csinaltak
az egeszbol, a szlovak Greenpeace pedig egyszeruen feladta a harcot es
mas projektekre koncentral. Nehez dolga lesz ez esetben a birosagnak,
mert a 'presztizs' egeszen mas kategoriaba esik mint a kornyezetvedelem.

--------------
Ugy ertesultem, hogy a leveledben emlitett kereseket (sajtokonferencia,
Mikeseloadas, stb.) mar kezelik masok (Marosvolgyi Lajos, Toth Miklos,
stb.), igy en azokban most nem lepek, hogy ne kavarjam a dolgokat ossze.

Udvozlettel                                             Karoly
+ - Fwd: koszonet (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

---------------------
Forwarded message:
From:	 (NICKL =?iso-8859-2?Q?K=E1roly?=)
To:	
CC:	
Date: 97-03-05 05:03:13 EST

Kedves Bela batyam!

Koszonom soraidat, felhasznalom honlapotokrol amit tudok.

Az itteni holland VOLKSKRANT napilapban megjelent februr 13.-an egy cikk
"Magyarok es Szlovakok civakodnak a Duna-vizen" cim alatt. Lenyegeben
arra mutat ra, hogy a szlovakok semmilyen kompromisszumra nem voltak
hajlandok az elmult idoszakban, semilyen figyelmeztetest nem vettek
figyelembe, es egy mindenkinek bemutathato presztizsprojektet csinaltak
az egeszbol, a szlovak Greenpeace pedig egyszeruen feladta a harcot es
mas projektekre koncentral. Nehez dolga lesz ez esetben a birosagnak,
mert a 'presztizs' egeszen mas kategoriaba esik mint a kornyezetvedelem.

--------------
Ugy ertesultem, hogy a leveledben emlitett kereseket (sajtokonferencia,
Mikeseloadas, stb.) mar kezelik masok (Marosvolgyi Lajos, Toth Miklos,
stb.), igy en azokban most nem lepek, hogy ne kavarjam a dolgokat ossze.

Udvozlettel						Karoly
+ - Fwd: NATO-enlargement (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

---------------------
Forwarded message:
From:	
Reply-to:	
To:	
Date: 97-03-05 08:09:59 EST

Dear Dr. Liptak,

Thank you for your mail from September 24. 
 I am planning to start a new project on Nato-enlargement to
Visegrad-countries in September 1997.  In this project I will focus on
negotiations and implementation of membership after Nato's summit in
June 1997. If you send me a short list of what you consider to be the
most important economic, political and military aspects related to
negotiations and implementation of membership to your country,
I would be very thankful.


Best Regards,

Mr. Christian-Marius Stryken
Research Assistant
Norwegian Institute of International Affairs, NUPI, Oslo, Norway
> --------------------------------------------------------------------  
 Work:
 NUPI - Norwegian Institute of International Affairs
 P.O. Box 8159 Dep.
 0033 OSLO
 NORWAY
 Phone: +47 22177050   Fax  : +47 22177015
 Email: 
 X400 : /G=ChristianM/S=Stryken/O=nupi/PRMD=uninett/C=no/
 
 Home:
 Laura Gundersensgt. 6b, N-0168  OSLO
 Phone: +47 90 88 72 30 / +47 22 46 75 12
+ - Fwd: NATO-enlargement (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

---------------------
Forwarded message:
From:   
Reply-to:       
To:     
Date: 97-03-05 08:09:59 EST

Dear Dr. Liptak,

Thank you for your mail from September 24.
 I am planning to start a new project on Nato-enlargement to
Visegrad-countries in September 1997.  In this project I will focus on
negotiations and implementation of membership after Nato's summit in
June 1997. If you send me a short list of what you consider to be the
most important economic, political and military aspects related to
negotiations and implementation of membership to your country,
I would be very thankful.


Best Regards,

Mr. Christian-Marius Stryken
Research Assistant
Norwegian Institute of International Affairs, NUPI, Oslo, Norway
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
 Work:
 NUPI - Norwegian Institute of International Affairs
 P.O. Box 8159 Dep.
 0033 OSLO
 NORWAY
 Phone: +47 22177050   Fax  : +47 22177015
 Email: 
 X400 : /G=ChristianM/S=Stryken/O=nupi/PRMD=uninett/C=no/

 Home:
 Laura Gundersensgt. 6b, N-0168  OSLO
 Phone: +47 90 88 72 30 / +47 22 46 75 12
+ - HL-Action: write New President at World Court (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
  Normal

Background:
   The International Court of Justice has elected a new President,
Stephen Schwebel, professor of law at The Johns Hopkins University in
America.  Since the new President probably does not know the details
about the upcoming Danube lawsuit yet, it is important that we inform
him.  It is likely that the new President would be receptive to a
letter campaign.
   We have to convince President Schwebel about the Compromise
Plan proposed by Bela Liptak and environmental organizations. This
plan ensures the survival of the Danube Wetlands.

What to do:
   Please send a letter to the new President of the World Court,
Stephen Schwebel.  Ask him to rule in favor of the environment; that
is, to consider the Compromise Plan.  Feel free to use the sample
letter below.  Unfortunately we do not have the e-mail address. Please
do not hesitate to send him a fax.  EVERY FAX IS IMPORTANT!!! PLEASE
ACT!! ASK YOUR FRIENDS TO JOIN YOUR REQUEST!!
   Fax number:  ++31-70-3649-928

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<date>

The Honorable Stephen Schwebel
President of the International Court of Justice
Carnegieplein 2, 2517 KJ,
Den Haag
The Netherlands
FAX: ++31-70-3649-928

Dear Mr. President:

Congratulations on your well-deserved appointment as the new
President of the International Court of Justice.  Your professional
background is sure to further increase the reputation of the Court.

This month, for the first time in history, your Court will decide on
an environmental lawsuit which affects all humankind.  In ruling on
the future of the Danube in the dispute between Hungary and Slovakia,
you and your fellow judges can set a precedent by ruling that rivers,
forests, and oceans are not the sole properties of nations, that
nations do not have the right to destroy unique ecosystems.

The ecosystem of the Szigetkoz is dying due to the tragic drop in
groundwater level which is caused by the rerouting of the Danube. This
region, which was the oxygen supply of the Danube, has been destroyed
because the lung of the river (the wetland region) has been cut out.
Shipping on the Danube has suffered because of flimsy construction and
because the dam is not designed to handle ice.  Most importantly, the
population of the region is in physical danger and two-thirds of the
populations of Dobrohost, Vojka and Bodiky have already fled.

The Foundation to Protect the Hungarian Environment has submitted to
the Court a Compromise Plan to return the Danube into its natural
riverbed.  I hope and trust that the Court will save the ecosystem of
the Szigetkoz by giving this Compromise Plan serious consideration as
it makes its historic ruling.

Respectfully,

<name, title, address>
+ - HL-Action: write New President at World Court (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
  Normal

Background:
   The International Court of Justice has elected a new President,
Stephen Schwebel, professor of law at The Johns Hopkins University in
America.  Since the new President probably does not know the details
about the upcoming Danube lawsuit yet, it is important that we inform
him.  It is likely that the new President would be receptive to a
letter campaign.
   We have to convince President Schwebel about the Compromise
Plan proposed by Bela Liptak and environmental organizations. This
plan ensures the survival of the Danube Wetlands.

What to do:
   Please send a letter to the new President of the World Court,
Stephen Schwebel.  Ask him to rule in favor of the environment; that
is, to consider the Compromise Plan.  Feel free to use the sample
letter below.  Unfortunately we do not have the e-mail address. Please
do not hesitate to send him a fax.  EVERY FAX IS IMPORTANT!!! PLEASE
ACT!! ASK YOUR FRIENDS TO JOIN YOUR REQUEST!!
   Fax number:  ++31-70-3649-928

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<date>

The Honorable Stephen Schwebel
President of the International Court of Justice
Carnegieplein 2, 2517 KJ,
Den Haag
The Netherlands
FAX: ++31-70-3649-928

Dear Mr. President:

Congratulations on your well-deserved appointment as the new
President of the International Court of Justice.  Your professional
background is sure to further increase the reputation of the Court.

This month, for the first time in history, your Court will decide on
an environmental lawsuit which affects all humankind.  In ruling on
the future of the Danube in the dispute between Hungary and Slovakia,
you and your fellow judges can set a precedent by ruling that rivers,
forests, and oceans are not the sole properties of nations, that
nations do not have the right to destroy unique ecosystems.

The ecosystem of the Szigetkoz is dying due to the tragic drop in
groundwater level which is caused by the rerouting of the Danube. This
region, which was the oxygen supply of the Danube, has been destroyed
because the lung of the river (the wetland region) has been cut out.
Shipping on the Danube has suffered because of flimsy construction and
because the dam is not designed to handle ice.  Most importantly, the
population of the region is in physical danger and two-thirds of the
populations of Dobrohost, Vojka and Bodiky have already fled.

The Foundation to Protect the Hungarian Environment has submitted to
the Court a Compromise Plan to return the Danube into its natural
riverbed.  I hope and trust that the Court will save the ecosystem of
the Szigetkoz by giving this Compromise Plan serious consideration as
it makes its historic ruling.

Respectfully,

<name, title, address>
+ - Re: Health care (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hello!
It seems to me that the old adage "the grass is greener on the other side of th
e fence" holds true in this instance. In Australia we have a Medicare system fi
nanced by a levy of 1.5% as a surcharge on income tax. This pays for a range of
 medical procedures and services based on a "common fee" centrally set by the f
ederal government, or rather its bureaucrats. 75% of this fee is refunded. Of c
ourse the doctors being in private practice generally charge considerably more.
 Many though not all of them charge this fee directly to the government in the 
case of pensioners and the unemployed. Hospital charges are taken care of by pr
ivate insurance which for a family is in the vicinity of $A110 per fortnight. A
bout 38% of the working population is insured and it is decreasing. For those w
ho are not insured the option is to go into hospital as a public patient with n
o choice of doctor or pay as required from their own pockets. There is continue
d griping about the cost and pressure to make hospitals less available for publ
ic patients.

Regards
Dénes 



----------
From:  Eva S. Balogh[SMTP:]
Sent:  Wednesday, 5 March 1997 10:34
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Health care

        Let's not get too involved with the pros and cons of Canadian versus
American health care. One can only say that both are extremely expensive in
comparison to some European countries. I may be wrong but my recollection is
that the Canadian is even more expensive than the American (that is, a
larger percentage of the GDP goes for health care than in the United States
which is hard to believe).
        I hear good things about German health care from friends in Germany.
Perhaps Miklos could enlighten us.
        The Hungarian situation, in my opinion at least, is close to
disasterous. Incredible number of doctors, much more than either in Canada
or in the United States, in fact, more than practically in any developed
country, and yet, the death rate is terrible. There are 148 hospitals for a
country of ten million and more beds per 10,000 population than in most
developed countries. And yet, it doesn't seem to help.
        I have some doctor friends who live in Germany and their remedy
would be privatization but immediately, both doctors and hospitals. The
Hungarians are not planning to do that although there are many doctors who
work for the system as well as for their own private practice. Something
will have to be done and I don't know whether they are doing the right thing
or not.
        Meanwhile one hears horror stories about the British system and the
Canadian is not in very good financial health either.

        Eva Balogh
+ - NATO Disputes (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Readers:
   In case some of you missed a recent article by Michael Gordon of the New
York Times reporting from Moscow, here are some excerpts:

                SWITCHING TACTICS IN NATO DISPUTE

   Western diplomats call it the root-canal strategy.
   Russia, having concluded that NATO expansion is virtually inevitable, is
no longer determined to stop it dead. Instead, its government embarked on a
new tactic: making the process as diplomatically painful as possible.
   The Russians seem to think that dragging out their negotiations may
produce more Western concessions. If that gets too painful, the alliance
will never try expansion again, after admitting Poland, the Czech Republic
and Hungary. This emerged during foreign minister Primakov's visit to Spain,
conferring with NATO Secretary Solana about setting up a NATO-Russian
council, giving Moscow a voice, but no veto.
   The two sides are still at odds over Russian demands that no NATO
installa- tions be erected on the territory of new members, and no foreign
forces be deployed there. While NATO wants to keep the door open for the
Baltic states
and other former Soviet bloques, Moscow wants to slam that door shut.
   The two sides also disagree on whether a new NATO-Russia charter should
be legally binding, as Moscow insists.
   NATO already agreed not to deploy nuclear arms in the new member countries,
now Secretary of State Madeleine Albright further proposed not increasing
the conventional weapons there either. Meanwhile, Kisinger began complaining
that Washington is making too many concessions.
   One scenario that worries some Western officials has been inelegantly
dubbed "the sucker punch". The fear is that Russia may negotiate flexibly
until the eve of the Helsinki meeting between Clinton and Yeltsin this
month, then press for a deal busting demand.
   Yeltsin promised last week to look for a compromise, while Primakov
partly underscored his gains for home audience, and partly reduced the
expectations of
what might be achieved.

                    IN THE MIDDLE:
-Ukrainian officials have waffled on NATO expansion, once favoring it, then
opposing it. Recently, pro-NATO voices have risen, and President Kuchma was
critical of Russia.
-Moldova has not sought membership, but not opposed NATO expansion. President
Lucinschi offered being intermediary between NATO and Russia.
-Belarus President Lukashenko strongly opposes NATO expansion and seeks to
rejoin his country with Russia.
-Lithuania avidly seeks NATO membership and offered sending troops to Bosnia.
-Latvia wants all Baltic states admitted to NATO as a group.
-Estonia eagerly seeks mebership, and would be happy if any of the Baltic
states would be admitted to NATO.

                                      Istvan L. Szabolcsy

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