It appears that what I wrote under this heading has been interpreted
by other readers the way I meant it.

This suggests that the problem that Herr von Keszi has with what I
wrote may lay with his reading, not with my writing.  Hence, I do not
feel it necessary to respond to his misunderstandings beyond pointing
out that what he thought I wrote is quite different from what I did.

George Antony

on 22 Jun 1996 19:56:08 -0600
 (???) wrote:

>>George Antony wrote:
.........
 >>There are no two rules that could be paired with ethnicity.  The
 >> furthest one can go is that Hungarians are more passionate in
 >> debates than Anglo-Saxons, but that does not extend beyond
 >> fairness in decent Hungarian circles.
 >As a new reader to this list, I found Ur Antony's comments noteworthy.
 >With the caveat of not knowing any of the history that lead to
his.......
The fact that you  not knowing any of the history that lead to   G.
Anthony s post is quite evident in your article. I can't help wondering
why you felt compelled nevertheless to write such a lengthy opinion and
only showing a small part
of GA's original article....

[snip...]
 >.....I might suggest that it is clear -- even to a
 >newcomer -- that Ur Antony rarely travels in decent Hungarian circles.
I find your above "suggestion" arrogant.

>"Ha ferfi, legy ferfi ..."
Oh, pleeeze spare us ' Macho, macho, macho-man.'

>Istvan Laszlo O Szaraz von Keszi

Udv.
me

The readers of HUNGARY may recall the controversy over the fact that
the at the 1,100-year celebration of the Hungarian tribes' settlement in the
Danubian basin Mozart's Requiem was to be played by the Budapest Festival
Orchestra.

        In today's Hirmondo (an Internet news service) the following article
appeared:

Elmarad a Requiem (MH)

Junius harmincadikan avatjak fel a Hosok teren a het vezer
restauralt szobrat.  Az eredeti tervek szerint ugyanezen a napon
Mozart Reqiuemjet jatszotta volna el a Budapesti Fesztivalzenekar.
A kozelmultban huszonkilenc maganszemely alairasaval tiltakozott
Budapest fopolgarmesterenel az ellen, hogy gyaszmiset jatsszanak az
unnepsegen.

Fischer Ivan, a zenekar muveszeti vezetoje elmondta: a koncert
otletenek megszuletesekor meg szo sem volt szoboravatasi
unnepsegrol.  A tortenelem aldozataira akartak a koncerttel
emlekezni.

A szoboravatasi unnepsegen tobbek kozt Bartok-, Kodaly- es Liszt-
muvek hangzanak fel, de Szent Istvan korabeli zeneben is
gyonyorkodhet a kozonseg.  Az avatas pillanataban Lehel kurtje
szolal meg.

        An English-language summary of the crucial paragraph: "Ivan Fischer,
artistic director of the orchestra, announced that at the time of programing
there were no plans to dedicate the statutes of the seven chieftains on that
day. The original idea behind scheduling Mozart's Requiem was to pay homage
to the victims of history."

        Eva Balogh

Can anyone give me some history of the canal that was built in the mid
1800's between the Tisza River and the Danube and going to Budpest, or
a source for such information.

Jerry Worthing

The Hungarian refugees who began to pour into Austria after the
reoccupation of all of Hungary by the Red Army constituted a cross-section
of Hungarian society. In 1957 the Hungarian government's Central
Statistical Bureau (KSH) prepared a detailed report on persons who had left
Hungary illegally between 23 October 1956 and 30 April 1957. This report
was reprinted and was made accessible to the public for the first time in
1991.

        The Hungarian police, according the KSH report, counted 151,731
persons who left Hungary illegally from the end of October 1956 to May
1957. That number constituted 1.5% of the population of Hungary. More than
half of them were originally residents of Budapest and another 19% lived in
other towns. Two thirds of the refugees were males, one third female. The
proportion of women who fled Budapest was higher than that of those who
left from the rest of the country. More than half of the refugees were
under 25 years of age. Nearly one third of the "dissidents", the term used
in the document, were between 25 and 39 years old. Fewer than 12% fell into
the 40 to 59 years old group while the 60 and over sixty group constituted
less than one per cent of the refugees. Consequently Hungary lost three
percent of its 15 to 39 years old population, 4.1% of the 15 to 19 group.
Persons of military age left in high number. Men in their twenties who
defected constituted 10.3% of their cohorts, the 19 years old group, 9.3%.
The youth of Budapest departed in large number. Fifteen out of every
hundred left from the 15-24 group. The highest proportion of refugees came
from the 5th, 6th and 7th districts of the capital where most of the
white-collar workers, intellectuals and Jews lived.

        Two-thirds of the refugees were formerly employed, while 1/3 of
them were supported. White-collar workers constituted 25% of the refugee
population, 3.3% of their cohorts. One half of the blue-collar workers were
skilled industrial labourers, 4.2% of their cohorts. Two-thirds of the
white-collar workers were intellectuals, numbering 17,000.  Amongst them
the largest number were the engineers, almost 11% of the Hungarian total.
730 doctors left, five out of every hundred. One half of the refugees in
the "supported" category consisted of students. College and university
students numbered 3,200, 11.2% of the Hungarian total.

        By the end of May 1957, 11,447 Hungarians had returned to Hungary,
nearly six per cent of the total of 193,885. 2/5 of the returnees came from
Austria, 1/5 from Yugoslavia. The refugees returned in the highest
proportion from Belgium. More men returned than did women, more from the 15
to 19 and the over 60 groups. Only two percent of the intellectuals but
seven per cent of the farmers repatriated. Farmers left Hungary in the
smallest number: 0.4% of them.

         According to Canada's Statistics Section of the Department of
Citizenship and Immigration by May 1, 1958, the number of Hungarian
refugees who were granted Canadian landing right was 35,914, one out of
every five who had left Hungary. The Statistical Section compiled
demographic data on the new Canadians.   The comparing and the contrasting
of  the demographic data of refugees leaving Hungary and those from the
same group who than left for Canada is possible with the two sets of data
made available.

        A major difference emerges between the two groups in the 15 to 19
age group. Almost  20% of the defectors are in this category while only
11.3% (4,057) of the Hungarian refugees in Canada were in this group.
Canadian immigration authorities were careful not to accept unaccompanied
teenagers which may account for this discrepancy. The profile of both
groups, emigrant-refugees and immigrant-refugees is identical, 54% of the
over 15 groups were males, 46% were females. This ratio varies in certain
age groups as reported in 1958. In the 20 to 24 group 84% of the men were
single, but only 37% of the women. In the 25 to 29 group half the men were
single as compared with 17% of the women. In the college age category,
20-24, females constituted only 29% (1,310) of the refugee-immigrants.
Fewer than 3% of all the men were divorced or separated, for women the
number was under 5%. In the 25 to 29 age group 46% of the men and 76% of
the women were married. Between 35 and 39 men reaches the same percentage.
The figures indicate that Canada obtained a family-oriented group of
immigrants.

end of part one

Peter I. Hidas

Hungarian Studies
Department Of Russian and Slavic Studies
McGill University
Montreal, Quebec, Canada

Officials in Ottawa initially thought that a large percentage of the
refugees were women and children, including orphans.  In the female age
group 0 to 14 the ratio of girls was only one third of the boys in same
category. More Hungarian parents with sons had decided  to emigrate at this
time  than those with young daughters. More concern for the future of sons'
careers, and the fear of the draft, may explain this preference. The case
of the Hungarian orphans particularly captured the imagination of the
world, including Canada. Argentina offered to take 4,000 Hungarian orphans.
External Affairs in Ottawa was flooded with request for orphaned Hungarian
children. Before any action could be taken the Toronto paper of the
Hungarian community, Kanadai Magyars=E1g,  demanded that all the orphans
should go to Hungarian families. Despite all efforts made, the Canadian Red
Cross was unable to locate orphans.  There were none.

        The occupational profile of the emigrant-refugees and the
immigrant-refugees is also similar although since different categories were
employed by Canadian and Hungarian statisticians, the comparison is
difficult to execute. Canadian authorities registered 10,297 Hungarian
refugees, 45.6% of the group destined for the labour force, in the
"manufacturing and mechanical" column. There were 578 miners among the
refugee-immigrants, 2.6% of persons from the occupational groups. Other
industrial labourers, 4,128, made up 18.3% of the industrial group. These
three groups totalled 66.5%, almost matching the KSH figure of 63.5%.
Professionals constituted 8% (1,811 persons) of the immigrant-refugee
working group. The KSH number is 6,641 or 6.5% of the emigrant-refugee
working group. Canada received about 20% of all the Hungarian refugees but
benefited from a  larger share of the  skilled industrial workers and
professionals.
The religious affiliation of the population of Hungary was not accounted
for by the censuses during the Communist regime. The division of the
Hungarians into 2/3 Catholics and 1/3 Protestants is generally accepted. As
a result of the Holocaust the Jewish population dropped from close to five
per cent to less than one after 1945. There is no direct source concerning
the religion of the Hungarian refugees of 1956.

        The Canadian Jewish Congress was informed on 23 November 1957 that
amongst the Hungarian refugees there were 2,000 Jews in Vienna, of whom
1,200 had registered with Jewish relief agencies. Later a report was
received from the  Joseph Kage estimated the number of Jews who left
Hungary in 1956/57 at 20,000, that is, 20% of the Hungarian Jewish
community. The Israeli ambassador in Vienna ventured the figure of 15,000.
Using a small sample, JIAS workers estimated the number of Hungarian Jews
who would not register as Jews at 50%. Another Jewish agency, UHIAS,
reported that, by the end of 1956, 10,046 Hungarian Jews registered as Jews
but they estimated that another 2,500 did not register. By 23 January 1957
the number registered with UHIAS grew to 13,163 and the Canada-bound to
2,449.

         The Statistics Section of the Department of Citizenship and
Immigration in its tri-monthly report on January 31, 1957 identified 8,832
Hungarians and 683  "Hebrews"  out of a total of 9,572. Jews then
constituted 7.1% of the total (9,572). The ratio changed to 6.6% by May 31,
6.8% on August 31 and  December 31, 1957 and April 30, 1958.

        When the refugees arrived in Canada immigration officers recorded
the ethnic origin of the new-comers but not their religion. The Department
of Immigration identified Hungarian Jews as "Hebrews." Later they changed
the category to "Jewish" which they considered separate from the category
"Hungarian". Hungarian Jews generally considered themselves to be of
Hungarian ethnic origin of the Jewish faith.  A Vancouver journalist
reported in January 1957: "Here in Vancouver we can confirm the fact that
some of the Hungarian refugees have been afraid to reveal their identity as
Jews. There have been several who had listed themselves as Catholics but
disclosed that they were Jews after being absolutely sure that there was no
danger of any repercussions." Fear of anti-Semitism, fear of persecution,
the traditional identification with Hungarians, the traditional separation
of nationality from religious affiliation, and anti-religious propaganda
and education in Hungary for close to ten years made many Hungarian Jews
refuse to reveal their religion or religious origin. How else can one
account for the figure of Professor Dirks, being 20%?  Professor N.
Dreisziger's figure of 7,000 is probably closest to the truth.

        The refugees were fleeing from Communism. There were few amongst
them who participated in the fighting. All feared the restoration of the
old regime for political and economic reasons. Few believed that the
process could be reversed and freedom and democracy might be established in
Hungary within a short time. In the opinion of the Canadian ambassador in
Vienna,  J.S.Macdonald, however, the great bulk of the refugees had no
desire to go so far away as America or Australia. "Our experience so far,"
he reported to Ottawa, " is that most of them are thinking in terms of
returning to their homes as soon as the fighting is over." It is thought
that perhaps fifty percent will wish to return to their homes when
conditions settle down. Macdonald believed that most of the refugees were
apolitical working people with a sprinkling of ex-industrialists and
professional men.  Macdonald rejected the generally accepted view that the
Hungarians were fleeing Soviet terror. He told Ottawa that "The popular
picture built up by the journalists - of a beaten and defeated people
fleeing from Soviet terror toward the West in search of economic and
political freedom - does not, it seems to me, correspond very closely with
reality."  He had a discussion with an Austrian official representing the
Burgermeister in Wiener Neustadt: "...with migration cut off for the last
sixteen or seventeen years, there is a great pressure to get out, quite
apart from the form of government or living conditions in Hungary. The
movement is doubtless accentuated by the civil war and the accompanying
confusion but in his view the demographic forces are stronger than the
political or the economic....this is a view I had not heard advanced
previously but one to which I think some weight has to be given." Dr.
Lindt, UN High Commissioner for Refugees stated that the initial flight
from Hungary had been chiefly of political refugees; those who followed
were mainly economic refugees. A number of the refugees evaded the camps
and have engaged in undesirable economic activities in Austria, including
prostitution and black-marketeering. A few criminals who escaped from
Hungarian jails during the revolution were involved in the forgery of
Austrian currency. In January 1957 the Vienna Visa Section informed Ottawa
that in their view half of the Hungarians were politically unreliable and
many were in ill health. These falsification aimed at the slowing down of
the refugee flow to Canada.

        Despite the occasionally distorted reports emanating from certain
Canadian diplomats with unfriendly attitudes towards some or all Hungarian
refugees, Ottawa was able to obtain a clear picture of the situation.
Canada eventually admitted over 20% of the Hungarian refugees. The country
gained as a result of Hungary's brain drain. The nearly 40,000 fifty-sixers
who arrived in Canada were mainly of urban origin, young, single, healthy,
well educated and highly skilled. About 60% of them were Roman Catholics,
the rest were Protestants (20%) and Jews (20%). Two-third of the
fifty-sixers were male. Few children and few elderly participated in the
adventure. There were one thousand students among the refugees. In 1957/58
one sixteenth of the increase in the student population of Canada was due
to the presence of the Hungarian refugee students. By the end of the summer
of 1957 hardly any of refugees received state support or welfare - they
were hard at work building their personal career, building Canada.


Peter I. Hidas

Hungarian Studies
Department Of Russian and Slavic Studies
McGill University
Montreal, Quebec, Canada

In Hungary #707,  Martha writes:

>Ferenc,
>
>Since Aniko is away for weeks, (she made that clear to all of us) she will
>not see your question until she returns from Europe.
>
>You have failed to include in your quote the text to which she replied.
>That makes it mighty difficult to see things in context.  Still, I can
>tell you the gist of her paragraph:
>
>You are accusing someone with wrong-doings.  Were you the type who is
>innocent and cannot be accused of anything, it would never have occurred
>to you to blame others.
>
>In other words: you would have PRESUMED the OTHER person as INNOCENT and
>refrained from accusing him/her.                            ~~~~~~~~
>
>(You could (should) have figured it out from the included Hungarian motto.)
>
>Now, is it clear?  Simple, too!
>
>Martha

This makes just as little sense as the original by Aniko'.  Why are you
trying to explain something for her?  I don't mind waiting until she returns
to listen to HER explanation.

And in the same issue, Eva Balogh says:

>At 11:41 PM 6/21/96 -0400, Ferenc Novak rote:
>>Andras Kornai writes in Hungary #704:
>
>>>For example, when a leading light of FORUM at the time, Istvan Csorna,
>>called
>>>the Hungarian president "Szovjetpartizanarpibacsi" (check out FORUM 796,
Dec
>>>24 1992), what could one do? It is hard to translate the expression not
>>>because it is, strictly speaking, ungrammatical in the original Hungarian
>>(it
>>>is, but any speaker of Hungarian understands what is meant, just as any
any
>>>speaker of English would understand "me much hungry you me food get") but
>>>because in the lengthy glossing process the bloodcurling awfulness of the
>>>original is entirely lost.
>>
>>Well, maybe we can find it, bloodcurling awfulness and all.  I would like,
if
>>I may, help out our Andras by translating the term that gave him so much
>>trouble he needed two whole paragraphs to describe:
>>
>>"" ==> "Sovietpartisanunclearpi"
>>
>>i.e. Soviet partisan uncle Arpi (Arpad Goncz, elected by Parliament as
>>president of Hungary, who likes to brag of his WW2 partisan/guerilla
>>credentials)
>>
>>That wasn't difficult, was it, Andras?  Or should I say "me translate you
no
>>can" ;-)
>
>        I assume Ferenc is objecting to Andras's description of this
>so-called word as "bloodcurling."

------------------------------- cut -----------------------------
>        Eva Balogh

No, I was merely helping Andras translate something that he found too
difficult to translate.  Yes, he called it bloodcurdling, in effect hinting
that the "word" had something mysteriously evil, sinister or profane about
it, as well as being "ungrammatical".  Now this is a prime example of
"csusztatas", if you will.  I did not express an opinion about the word,
merely supplied a translation for the benefit of those who don't read
Hungarian.

I find it strange that in one issue of Hungary I got two responses not from
the addressees of my comments, but by self-appointed proxies.  Since
reference was made (by Aniko' and Martha) to a Hungarian saying, may I offer
one of my own here?  It begins: "Fogadatlan prokatornak...

Ferenc

Jalsovszky Gyorgy irja a FORUM #2028-ban:

>Hosszu nevu ifju baratunk >
>irja a FORUM #2027-ben:
>
>>Kedves mindenki!
>>Azt hiszem fel kellene hagyni, egy idore az NPA ugyenek targyalasaval.
>>Egyszeruen azert, mert undorito, amit egyesek ezzel kapcsolatban
>>megengednek maguknak. NPA boren konnyu masoknak poenkodni... Talan varjuk
>>meg a veget, es akkor lehet anyazni, amikor o is poenra tudja venni.
>>Balogh Evanak gratulalok igen alattomos, es tenyerbemaszo levelet sikerult
>>irnia a szalonba...
>Eddig ez tiszteletre melto maganvelemeny, amit lehet osztani vagy
>>
>DE:
>>Legyen mindenkinek, annyi esze, hogy tudja hol a
>>hatar, a vita, b????gatas, es a g???seg kozott...
>Ez pontosan az az obszcenitas <a karaktereket az en finnyas PC-m torolte -
>JGy>, amit nem engedhetunk meg egymasnak, de sajat magunknak sem.
>
>Tisztelettel kerlek, kedves Ferenc, az utolso mondatot fogalmazd meg uri
modon!
>
>Koszont:
>Jalsovszky Gyorgy

Az utolso mondattal nem tudok mit kezdeni.  Talan azt hiszed, hogy en irtam
"hosszu" neven?  Vagy csak arra szeretnel megkerni, hogy forditsam le
szalonkepes magyarra?

Udvozol

Novak Ferenc