on Feb  2 18:32:45 EST 1997 in HUNGARY #903:

>In article >, Ferenc Novak,
>crypto-Slovak,  > writes:

I don't know whether you meant this as a compliment or an insult.  I take it
as just another example of a pitiful effort of an intellectually challenged
individual at finding something -- anything -- to respond to a well-deserved
rebuke.

>>This is unfair, and you know it, Sam.  Shame on you.  And think about
>>this: his English is probably far better than your Hungarian.

>I've never pretended to be able to speak fluent Hungarian, Frank. And I'm
>really not worried about what a gay-baiting buttwipe thinks is fair or
>not, particularly a gay-baiting buttwipe who has very recently made it
>clear that he considers physical handicaps an indication of moral
>inferiority.

Again, I am puzzled.  I don't think anyone here " considers physical
handicaps an indication of moral inferiority".  But I -- and probably some
others as well -- do consider you either a rude, crude, foulmouthed redneck
or a very sick puppy.

Ferenc

At 01:09 PM 2/4/97 GMT, Sam Stowe wrote:

<snip>
>Joe, are you stressed out for some reason? It usually takes you two or
>three more rounds of bickering before you get to the caca, poopoo insults.
>I hope it wasn't something I said.

Caca (write it kaka - if you're interested in Hungarian content), poopoo
insults?  Not me!  I'm just responding appropriately to your scatological
deposititions to my questions and arguments.

Am I stressed out?  I don't think so.  What would stress me out?  Your
constant drone about how "it's not passivity to suggest that careful,
incremental, small-scale change might have a greater positive impact on
people's lives while minimizing the disruptions that always attend change"?
I have two questions for you, Sam.  Who would be in charge of the "careful,
incremental, small-scale change"?  And what would be their interest in
managing the change?  Curious minds want to know.

Joe Szalai

"Change is not made without inconvenience, even from worse to better."
          Richard Hooker (1554-1600)

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
   normal

Background:
   The lawsuit at the at the International Court of
Justice, which will adjudicate on the dispute between Hungary and 
Slovakia concerning the rerouting of the Danube onto Slovak 
territory, will open in March. We have to convince the court about 
the Compromise Plan proposed by Bela Liptak and environmental 
organizations. This plan ensures the survival of the Danube Wetlands.

What to do:
   Please send a letter to the President of the World Court  Mohammed
Bedjaoui. Ask him to rule for the environment, that is to consider the
Compromise Plan. Feel free to use the included sample letter. 
   Unfortunately we do not have the e-mail address. Please do not
hesitate to send him a fax. EVERY FAX IS IMPORTANT!!! PLEASE ACT!! ASK
YOUR FRIENDS TO JOIN YOUR REQUEST!!
   Fax from US: 011-31-70-3649-928
   Fax from Europe: 0031-70-3649-928

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


The Honorable Mohammed Bedjaoui
President of the International Court of Justice
Carnegieplein 2, 2517 KJ, 
Den Haag
The Netherlands
FAX: 011-31-70-3649-928

Dear Mr. President:

    In February, for the first time in history, your Court will decide on
an environmental lawsuit which effects all mankind. In ruling on the
future of the Danube in the dispute between Hungary and Slovakia, you 
and your fellow judges can set a precedent by ruling that rivers, 
forests, and oceans are not the sole properties of nations, that 
nations do not have the right to destroy unique ecosystems. 

    The ecosystem of the Szigetkoz is dying due to the tragic drop in
ground-water level which is caused by the rerouting of the Danube. 
This region, which was the oxygen supply of the Danube, has been 
destroyed because the lung of the river (the wetland region) has 
been cut out. Shipping on the Danube has suffered because of flimsy 
construction and because the dam is not designed to handle ice. Most 
importantly, the population of the region is in physical danger and 
two thirds of the populations of Dobrohost, Vojka and Bodiky have 
already fled.   

    The Foundation to Protect the Hungarian Environment has submitted 
to the Court a Compromise Plan to return the Danube into its natural
riverbed. I hope and trust that the Court will save the ecosystem of the 
Szigetkoz by taking this Compromise Plan into consideration as it 
makes its historic ruling.  

Respectfully,

name, title, address

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
   normal

Background:
   The lawsuit at the at the International Court of
Justice, which will adjudicate on the dispute between Hungary and
Slovakia concerning the rerouting of the Danube onto Slovak
territory, will open in March. We have to convince the court about
the Compromise Plan proposed by Bela Liptak and environmental
organizations. This plan ensures the survival of the Danube Wetlands.

What to do:
   Please send a letter to the President of the World Court  Mohammed
Bedjaoui. Ask him to rule for the environment, that is to consider the
Compromise Plan. Feel free to use the included sample letter.
   Unfortunately we do not have the e-mail address. Please do not
hesitate to send him a fax. EVERY FAX IS IMPORTANT!!! PLEASE ACT!! ASK
YOUR FRIENDS TO JOIN YOUR REQUEST!!
   Fax from US: 011-31-70-3649-928
   Fax from Europe: 0031-70-3649-928

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


The Honorable Mohammed Bedjaoui
President of the International Court of Justice
Carnegieplein 2, 2517 KJ,
Den Haag
The Netherlands
FAX: 011-31-70-3649-928

Dear Mr. President:

    In February, for the first time in history, your Court will decide on
an environmental lawsuit which effects all mankind. In ruling on the
future of the Danube in the dispute between Hungary and Slovakia, you
and your fellow judges can set a precedent by ruling that rivers,
forests, and oceans are not the sole properties of nations, that
nations do not have the right to destroy unique ecosystems.

    The ecosystem of the Szigetkoz is dying due to the tragic drop in
ground-water level which is caused by the rerouting of the Danube.
This region, which was the oxygen supply of the Danube, has been
destroyed because the lung of the river (the wetland region) has
been cut out. Shipping on the Danube has suffered because of flimsy
construction and because the dam is not designed to handle ice. Most
importantly, the population of the region is in physical danger and
two thirds of the populations of Dobrohost, Vojka and Bodiky have
already fled.

    The Foundation to Protect the Hungarian Environment has submitted
to the Court a Compromise Plan to return the Danube into its natural
riverbed. I hope and trust that the Court will save the ecosystem of the
Szigetkoz by taking this Compromise Plan into consideration as it
makes its historic ruling.

Respectfully,

name, title, address

In article >, Ferenc Novak
> writes:

>Subject:       Re: Propaganda!
>From:  Ferenc Novak >
>Date:  Tue, 4 Feb 1997 22:17:39 -0500
>
 on Feb  2 18:32:45 EST 1997 in HUNGARY #903:
>
>>In article >, Ferenc
Novak,
>>crypto-Slovak,  > writes:
>
>I don't know whether you meant this as a compliment or an insult.  I take
it
>as just another example of a pitiful effort of an intellectually
challenged
>individual at finding something -- anything -- to respond to a
well-deserved
>rebuke.

Well-deserved rebuke my ass. And if I were intellectually challenged, you
wouldn't constantly be making an idiot out of yourself responding to me.

>
>>>This is unfair, and you know it, Sam.  Shame on you.  And think about
>>>this: his English is probably far better than your Hungarian.
>
>>I've never pretended to be able to speak fluent Hungarian, Frank. And
I'm
>>really not worried about what a gay-baiting buttwipe thinks is fair or
>>not, particularly a gay-baiting buttwipe who has very recently made it
>>clear that he considers physical handicaps an indication of moral
>>inferiority.
>
>Again, I am puzzled.  I don't think anyone here " considers physical
>handicaps an indication of moral inferiority".  But I -- and probably
some
>others as well -- do consider you either a rude, crude, foulmouthed
redneck
>or a very sick puppy.

Frank, I'm used to your constant lies. I am also accustomed to your
contempt for anyone who doesn't measure up to your own lofty standards.
For a run-of-the-mill far-right louse, it seems like you could at least
inject some whit of humor into your dreary posts. Even Goering was
cracking up the U-bahn riders in Berlin as the Russians closed in during
April, 1945. You share so many other qualities with him, why not a sense
of humor? By the way, are you married? I'm asking on behalf of Johanne.
She's been trying to flirt with you here lately, you know. Oh, and, Frank?
It's Mr. Rude, Crude, Foulmouthed Redneck to you, you boring, blockheaded
bigot.
Sam Stowe

>
>Ferenc
>
>



"Missionaries and cannibals
make perfect couples..."
-- Paul Theroux

S.Stowe wrote to F.Novak:

>Well-deserved rebuke my ass. And if I were intellectually challenged, you
>wouldn't constantly be making an idiot out of yourself responding to me.

He got this one right, Ferenc. Don't descend to his primitive level by
responding him, please! He makes fool out of himself and destroy his
credibility by his own post.

J.Zs

Dear fellow listmembers,

I'm posting this message because it might be of tangential interest
to some of you.

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew


> =========================================================================

            The George Washington University Department of History
                                     and
                     Elliott School of International Affairs

                                   present


                        OTTOMANS, RUSSIANS AND EUROPEANS


                            a conference honoring

                              RODERIC H. DAVISON
                                  (1917-1996)
                     Professor Emeritus of European History


                             FRIDAY, APRIL 11, 1997
                               9:30 a.m.-4:00 p.m.
                       reception to follow sponsored by the
                           Institute of Turkish Studies


There is no charge for attendance, however reservations are requested.
To reserve your place or for further information, please contact Michael
Weeks or Cyndy Donnell in the Department of History, (202) 994-6230.
(e-mail:  or ).

Speakers will include William Ochsenwald, Virginia Tech; Catherine Evtuhov,
Georgetown University; Maria Todorova, University of Florida; Richard
Stites, Georgetown; Virginia Aksan, McMaster University, Gabor Agoston, ELTE.

> At 01:52 PM 2/4/97 -0400, Agnes wrote:
>
> >The first kibbutzim were
> >founded by Russian Jews before the Russian revolution, as a necessity.
> >Hungarian Jews were very happy in Hungary at the turn of the century and
> >did not think of pioneering in the desert.   Presently, only 2% of the
> >population lives on the kibbutzes, and the young ones are drifting away.
> >- This is what a guide told me years ago, when I visited Israel and took
> >tours.
>
>         That's my understand as well. As for Hungarian Jewry in spite of the
> fact that Theodore Herzl was Hungarian Zionism was rather weak in Hungary.
> The majority of Russian Jews were Yiddish-speaking and totally
> unassimilated. Among them Zionism, which was basically Jewish nationalism
> and the idea of recreating a permanent home for Jews, was very strong and
> most of the early immigrants to Palestine were Russian/Polish Jews.
> Apparently in Hungary the official Jewish leadership was very much against
> Zionism.
>
>         As for an interesting description of life in a kibutz in the early
> 20s I can recommend Arthur Koestler's autobiography. Koestler in his varied
> career at one point became enamored with Zionism and spent a year in
> Palestine. He was certainly not cut out for the incredible hardship which
> life in the kibutz meant. And even after he left the kibutz he was literally
> starving.
>
>         The two-volume autobiography is also interesting in many other
> respects: a very interesting description of growing up in an assimilated
> Jewish family in Budapest and in the second volume, his return to Hungary in
> the 1930s and his friendships with leading Hungarian writers of the period,
> most notably with Attila Jozsef. The chapter also contains an absolutely
> wonderful translation (by Koestler himself) of Attila Jozsef's
> "Szu"lete'snapomra" [For my birthday]. Perhaps the only translation of a
> Hungarian poem I read which managed to give back the flavor of the original.
> The titles of the volumes: Arrow in the Blue and The Invisible Writing.
>
>         Eva Balogh
>
> I have read the Koestler books - actually all of his writings.  It is
very interesting.

And yes, Hungarian Jews were always Hungarians first and Jews second,
being totally assimilated in Hungarian culture.  Which, up to the present,
means that we are Jews for the Hungarians and Hungarians for the Jews.

In tsarist Russia (which
included part of Poland too)  Jews were severely persecuted and they were
an ethnic minority, with a Jiddish culture.  On the turn of the century,
there were two movements among Russian Jews:  Zionism, i.e. a homeland for
the Jews, and communism, with the idea that  everybody is equal and there
won't be any persecution of any human being any more.  That's why there
were so many Jews among the communist leaders.


Regards,

Agnes Heringer

At 02:52 PM 2/5/97 -0500, Janos Zsargo, paternalistically instructs Ferenc
Novak, re: Sam Stowe

<snip>
>He got this one right, Ferenc. Don't descend to his primitive level by
>responding him, please! He makes fool out of himself and destroy his
>credibility by his own post.

Yeah, come on, Ferenc.  Listen to Janos.  Leave Sam Stowe alone.  After all,
Janos Zsargo, who loves to second guess historical events, has finally
discovered what to do when he encounters someone who doesn't share his point
of view.  He flees!  And he wants you to do the same.  Mind you, he always
tries to makes his flight look dignified.  He wants everyone to think that
he's taking the high road.  I think he's just escaping.

I hope that that attitude in not Hungarian, because I've always thought that
Hungarians would stay and fight for what they/we believed in.  Perhaps I'm
mistaken.  Perhaps I shouldn't generalize.

Joe Szalai

"We grow tired of everything but turning others into ridicule, and
congratulating ourselves on their defects."
         William Hazlitt