RE:

Can anyone in Hungary help me find college courses that can be given to
American teachers in English and where these teachers can get credit for
the courses.   Please respond to  or write to me at
Judi Aronson, UFT/TCC 260 Park Ave. N.Y., N.Y.  10010
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Judi, the Hungarian Studies Program at JATE in Szeged offers courses in
English and grants U.S. college credit through one of the universities in
Oregon.  I attended the program in 1990-91 and found it excellent.

If you're interested you can contact

Gyorgy Szonyi, Director
Hungarian Studies (JATE)
H-6722 Szeged
Tisza I. krt., 103
Hungary

telephone:  36-621-0894

Ga1bor Fencsik (and quite possibly Greg Grose, if I understood his
one-liner correctly) both take mountains te be analogous to more
permanent historical situations against which the day to day chaos of
politics need to be interpreted. But mountains are part of the current
state of affairs, so they are in no way justifying the proposition
that earlier states of affairs need to be known if we are to make
sense of the current situation.

Perhaps a more interesting case can be built around El Nino, a
meteorological phenomenon known to reappear with fair regularity every
7-12 years.  How can this happen, if the atmosphere has no memory
beyond a few days? How can we even hope to know about it, if we must
restrict our vision to a timescale of a few weeks? The answer, at
least in the political domain, seems to be that we can't and we don't
know about it. Prediction based of Kondryateff cycles and other
supposed multi-decade regularities is hopeless.

In meteorology, there are indeed static boundary conditions, such as
the mountains, and in fact it is reasonably easy to tell what is
static and what isn't. But when it comes to the Red Spot on Jupiter,
we actually have no idea whether this feature is going to be there for
another hundred, thousand, or million years. And if we don't know in
meteorology, where at least the basic equations governing the flow of
gases are well understood, how much less we know in history!  The
Berlin Wall looked like a "mountain" yet it crumbled and fell.

> If the historical myth is important for understanding
> the present, then the history of how the myth was born, and how it
> survived and changed over time, is also important. So at
> least grant that *this* part of history is far from bunk.

I grant that understanding the current myth is important in
understanding the present.  At the same time I completely reject the
idea that to understand something you have to understand its history
(the point has been argued in same detail in Popper's "The Poverty of
Historicism"), and I see no reason to make an exception to myths.  The
man-made conceptual systems I'm most familiar with are languages, and
certainly their history explains nothing about the way they are today.

While Ga1bor's point about earlier myths and trends resurfacing is
well taken, notice also that the attempt to bring back the Horthy-era
myths and ideology massively failed, and I have no doubt that a
similar attempt to bring back the Ka1da1r-era myths and ideology would
also massively fail.

Andra1s Kornai

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My apologizes in advance for being a bit off-topic.

A project our elementary school is working on is to gather names of US City
Mayors and their city hall mailing address to list on a Web Page our school
is creating. We are having difficulties obtaining the names of Mayors and
their city hall addresses and Zip codes.

So, if any of you would be willing to eMail me just the name of your city's
Mayor and the mailing address of city hall, including Zip code, that would
be greatly appreciated and would help us! Thanks in advance.

Please eMail to:

I don't know how directly relevant to this discussion the following
point is, but there is a regionally-close example of a Turkic conqueror
assimilating so completely with the conquered people as to disappear,
namely, Bulgaria.  For the rest of the discussion, I simply don't
have enough information to comment.

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew

Greetings all, from Vajk!

First, I am unfamiliar with finnugr-l, , or
, but am responding to all to whom these posts have
been addressed.

Second, I did not see the original post on ,
so I am unfamiliar with what started this fuss.  If someone has the
original, I would like to have a copy.

Third, I am not a professional in this field, nor do I read or speak
Hungarian, and am unfamiliar with Dr. Makkay or his/her work.

But...    I have particular interest in the origins and pre-Conquest
history of the Magyars, and have tried to read everything available to
me in English.

There appears to be a singularly narrow focus in the discussion so far.
While some note is taken of the general Finno-Ugric and Uralic peoples,
and some mention is made of Avars and Slavs, the focus seems to be on
the Turks.

So, let me throw out some other things I have read about, but have little
information about, that might have a bearing on this subject, and which
I have not seen addressed here yet.

1) There was at one time a postulate that the Magyars and Uighurs were
   related in some way.  What has transpired since that first excursion
   to China that was cut so short?

2) There was at one time not so long ago a thesis that the language of
   the future Magyars was the parent stock for the entire Finno-Ugric
   language group. Has anything come of this thesis?

3) It is said that while under the Huns the Magyars took part in the Hun
   invasion of Europe, and that some Magyars remained behind when the others
   retreated whence they came.  This might explain the presence of Magyar
   language, or at least some vocabulary or Magyar language structure, in
   the Carpathian basin prior to the arrival of the Magyars in the late
   9th century.

4) As to some group other than the Magyars being the leaders in the Conquest,
   it is said that the Kabars led the march physically, in keeping with
   common practice.  Also, during the Byzantine/Bulgarian fiasco, it is
   said that a rather large force was trapped behind enemy lines and took
   up residence in Byzantium, where they maintained a separate identity for
   quite some time.  Further, if I remember correctly, it was during this
   time, between leaving the Khazars and entering the Carpathian Basin,
   that some Magyars returned to "Magna Hungarica" (I'm a bit fuzzy on
   the chronology of that last).  So it appears that while the Magyar
   confederacy was gaining new confederates, much of the original group
   was moving off, giving the body that crossed the Carpathians a slim
   majority of Magyars.  And so far in this discussion (that has reached
   the Magyar mailing list), no mention of the Szekely has been seen.

Just some things to think about.  It is unlikely, I think, that the situation
is as simple as what has so far been presented.  But I'm afraid that my
ignorance is too great to throw much light on the subject.  I ask questions
that have not so far been asked, and hope that the questions will lead to
better answers.

Vajk

Alexey Panchenko wrote:

    >   I would not use the word "fuss" -- so far it has been an
    >interesting discussion.

    What I have seen on the mailing lists has been quite interesting.  There
    was mention of "invective" in private e-mail, and that is what I was
    referring to.

    You know, with all the Hungarians living outside of Hungary, especially
    in Canada, an English-speaking nation, there seems to be surprisingly
    little available in English.  So the current discussion is even more
    satisfying, as it makes available much that is unavailable to those of
    us who do not (yet) read Magyarul.

    Vajk
    

Karen MacPherson
Washington Bureau correspondent for the Albuquerque Tribune writes:

"Chuck Hansen, who has written extensively about nuclear weapons, said he
bought a set of the blueprints from Slaton and found them helpful ... and
are of interest because they have scale measurements ..."

Stephen Schwartz who heads a project called "The U.S. Nuclear Weapons Cost
Study Project" from the Brookings Institution, is quoted in the same
article saying " It's not a hoax ..."

FIFTY YEARS AGO the ATOMIC BOMBS were dropped on JAPAN!

PLEASE DON'T STOP READING ... THIS MESSAGE WILL INTEREST YOU!!

I have a colleague who just retired as the Associate Director of the LOS
ALAMOS NATIONAL LABORATORIES in New Mexico. We worked together to obtain
the release of the FAT MAN & LITTLE BOY ATOMIC BOMB BLUEPRINTS.

The Blueprints are reproductions of the OFFICIAL 1944-45 GOVERNMENT
documents used in the MANHATTAN PROJECT to build the Bombs.  The Blueprints
are 18 x 24 inches and ALL are suitable for display. They are highly
detailed " Dimensional and Component" drawings of each weapon.  The
documents were declassified and recently released.

(BTW ... THIS IS NOT A HOAX!  There are Anti Nuke radical elements who will
try to discredit this e-mail, please ignore them!)

This is a MUST HAVE for anyone interested in Science, History or Technology.
Truely a unique opportunity to own an Artifact of an important event in
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The Blueprints cost $18.00 US currency. That amount includes mailing tube
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(International delivery REQUIRES an additional $6.00 US currency for AIR
MAIL SERVICE.)

The best method of payment is your Bank Check. For international delivery,
International Money Order already converted to US CURRENCY is required.

ORDERING INSTRUCTIONS:

PLEASE CALL (505) 821-1945 to RESERVE your set of the Blueprints and then
promptly send payment. Please leave your NAME and ADDRESS as confirmation
of your order.

If you are calling LONG DISTANCE, you may DEDUCT $2.00 US from the cost of
the order to pay for your call. You may also write to the address listed
below.

Please DO NOT respond via E-MAIL, I am in the process of changing Internet
Service Providers. Therefore,I will not be able to respond to you.

PLEASE: YOU MUST CALL (505) 821-1945 to place your order!

PLEASE DON'T DELAY!  These are GOING FAST!

Please send Bank Check or Money Order to:

Jeff Slaton
6808 Truchas Dr. NE
Albuquerque, New Mexico  87109
USA

PS

Would you kindly forward this message to anyone who would be interested or
might benifit from these documents?

Thank you Again!

Dear fellow-listmembers,

Sorry about the a-bomb blueprints commercial.  Since early August at
least Listserv at GWU has been intercepting "spams" from this guy, but
it seems he's figured out he'll get through if he posts to each list
individually.

In spite of Teller's contribution to atomic science, I think we'd agree
that this posting didn't have any significant Hungary list content?  If
you disagree, we could invite Mr. Slaton to subscribe to the list and
join our discussions (he's not on the list of subscribers at present).

I've e-mailed his postmaster, maybe if you add your voices it would help?

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew